Player Discussion How overpaid is Tavares

[CDN24]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1795837352105189881

The outcome of this case will have massive implications not only for Tavares but for players playing in Canada who are not Canadian residents with significant signing bonus money in their contract. Austin Matthews for one.

The CRA is saying 2 significant things

1) The signing bonus is not a true signing bonus as he would not get all of it if he chose not to play
2) JT was a Canadian resident because he failed the 183 days in Canada test.

IF the CRA wins on the 2nd point, the 1st is moot because as a Canadian resident he would be taxed in Canada on world wide income including that bonus and really the salary he earned with the islanders in 1st half of 2018.

The 1st point has massive implications, if the courts rule that that bonus is not a signing bonus in the tax authorities eyes but part of his salry, then guys like Matthews are affected. Matthews contract except for the league minimum paid as salary is paid as signing bonus. If it is a signing bonus he is only taxed in Canada on the base salary of 775K and the 15M+ of bonus is taxed only at 15% in Canada and is taxed in arizona at a lower tax rate. he gets a credit there for the 15% pd here. I suspect if CRA wins on that point they will be reassessing a lot of players.

Looking at some other americans who recently signed big contracts here there seems to be less use of the bonus structure, i wonder if teams/players are getting worried about the issue. Hellyebuyck only has a signing bonus in yr 1, Caulfield only in Year 1 and 2. Easier to argue those are truly signing bonuses. When year after year only the league min is paid as salary and the rest is signing bonus it tends to fail the smell test.

I used to work with a tax practioner who had a expression for aggressive tax planning. " pigs get fat, Hogs get slaughtered" some of these all bonus contracts are getting well into hog territory.

 

[notDatsyuk]

https://x.com/i/web/status/1795837352105189881

A "tax treaty"? It sounds to me like his accountant found a loophole that didn't exist.

 

[Confucius]

Dam it’s a wonder JT didn’t have a cardiac, imagine opening a letter from taxation, you owe 8 million more. Wow.

I think we won’t see JT giving discounts, after all the tax people may say JT you are worth 11 million a year so…

 

[Amadeus]

Roughly by 4.5 million or so.

 

[PromisedLand]

A "tax treaty"? It sounds to me like his accountant found a loophole that didn't exist.

Here is some info

Some sources:

Signing Bonuses how do they get taxed
https://ca.rbcwealthmanagement.com/...nals.pdf/2ebb1a52-d371-4152-8915-8a714163238a
US-Canada tax treaty for athletes/agents

Cross Border Taxes For Professional Athletes | US Tax Law Canada​

Are you an NHL MLB UFC Professional Athlete? US Tax Law can assist with Planning Consulting Compliance and Preparation of your taxes. Call 18448293678

Generic Canada-US Tax treaty
https://www.hrblock.com/expat-tax-p...y/canada/the-u-s-canada-tax-treaty-explained/

Also I recall when Tavares was signed there was this article that was quoted quite a bit

John Tavares Could Save Nearly $12 Million In Taxes On His New Contract

Canada may have high tax rates but careful planning could save Tavares millions as he plays for his hometown team.

www.forbes.com

Its possible that his accountant effed up


RBC Wealth did an article which I thought was "interesting" but RBC is effing filled with crooks like TD so f*** them

but.... in case you are interested

https://ca.rbcwealthmanagement.com/william.vastis/blog//4151998-As-John-Tavares-tax-issue-makes-headlines-this-is-a-lesson-to-other-cross-border-Canadians

 

[TheGreenTBer]

Dam it’s a wonder JT didn’t have a cardiac, imagine opening a letter from taxation, you owe 8 million more. Wow.

I think we won’t see JT giving discounts, after all the tax people may say JT you are worth 11 million a year so…

If he doesn't give a discount Toronto can't afford him even if they wanted to.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

It's time to part ways with John Tavares.

If he'll sign a 3.5 AAV x 4 deal, then he can third / fourth line.

No PP1 time this year. We need to change up the PP. It was dreadful when needed the most last year.

To me, he's too slow. I don't sign him.

 

[AcerComputer]

Tavares and Leafs talking contract extention:

Toronto Maple Leafs, pending UFA Tavares have opened contract talks | TSN

 

[LeafsStorm]

By at least 5-6m

 

[ULF_55]

He's overpaid by 2 years.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

Losing Tavares for any amount of time would be a tough blow to the forward group especially on the upper end as he is the only member of the Big Four to find the back of the net so far this season. Tavares scored in the second game of the season to give the Leafs insurance in a win over the New Jersey Devils.

Said no one ever.

Tavares and Leafs talking contract extention:

Toronto Maple Leafs, pending UFA Tavares have opened contract talks | TSN

They probably have a deal but can’t say anything until the Marner contract is decided.

 

[sunstersun]

I wouldn't pay him more than 3 mil.

 

[HellasLEAF]

Drop him to the 3rd line. And personally wouldn't resign even at hefty discount.

 

[Puckstuff]

I’d take Tavares at 4-5 m at 2-3 years to play 3C. Just get him away from 2C and don’t use him with Nylander or Robertson.

Knies-Matthews-Marner
Robertson-Domi-Nylander
Patches-Tavares-McMann

I don’t think anyone would complain about having a 25 goal, 60 point 3C at 4-5 million

 

[HamiltonNHL]

I’d take Tavares at 4-5 m at 2-3 years to play 3C.

What if he wants 7 ?

And you replace Tavares with? Granlund? Gourde? This makes us better?

Fearing change isn't an excuse for change.

This. Core. Doesn't. Work.

 

[Fogelhund]

What if he wants 7 ?


Fearing change isn't an excuse for change.

This. Core. Doesn't. Work.

This core hasn't worked so far. It's been given another chance, with a new coach to see if it does.

Change for the sake of change doesn't work either. If Tavares is no longer a core piece, but a support piece, paid appropriately, there isn't much of a problem. Downgrading the team, isn't a formula for future success.

If he wants 7, I'd probably let him walk. He wants to be here more, than we need him here.

 

[Martin Skoula]

I’d take Tavares at 4-5 m at 2-3 years to play 3C. Just get him away from 2C and don’t use him with Nylander or Robertson.

Knies-Matthews-Marner
Robertson-Domi-Nylander
Patches-Tavares-McMann

I don’t think anyone would complain about having a 25 goal, 60 point 3C at 4-5 million

What’s his job as 3C? Too slow to be a shutdown line, probably don’t want to feed him all the soft offensive minutes that the top two lines are better at producing in. Top6 LW + faceoffs on PP2 makes sense at that pricepoint but a sheltered scoring C that needs expensive transition wingers to work seems wasteful.

 

[HockeyVirus]

People are kind of ridiculous with Tavares. They act like he is washed and not an NHL player because they compare him to Matthews, Marner, and Willy (fair enough due to making 11M) but it is obvious he is not with them anymore. But is still way better than most players outside of them despite being slower and older.

I have no interest in JT at 6-7M because I think the cap dollars need to be allocated differently, or at least for a younger player in that role. But if he wants to take 3-4 for a few years? Uh absolutely are you kidding me?

 

[sxvnert]

Would rather move on and spent that 5-6 on another C or D. The Leafs & Toronto owe him nothing.

 

[Folignos Helmet]

They probably won’t make it to UFA but would love to turn JT’s money into Bennett and Frederic as 2 and 3 C next year.

 

[sxvnert]

What’s his job as 3C? Too slow to be a shutdown line, probably don’t want to feed him all the soft offensive minutes that the top two lines are better at producing in. Top6 LW + faceoffs on PP2 makes sense at that pricepoint but a sheltered scoring C that needs expensive transition wingers to work seems wasteful.

He's probably better suited on the wing but given how thin the Leafs are at center there's no other option.

If you had to:

Knies Matthews Marner
McMann Domi Nylander
Tavares Holmberg Robertson
Lorentz Dewar Reaves

 

[Its not your fault]

He’s a 5m player at this point.

Would only bring him back post-contract if he comes on a Spezza deal in a bottom six specialist role. Anything more, move on.

If he's that bad, is this team even
a contender for the playoffs?

ROR signed for 4.25mil or so. And despite being a 4 yrs contract and JT has two yrs left, I would still take ROR over JT at this moment. JT is about 6mil over paid

Do you think ROR signs for 4. 25 in Toronto I don't think he does...

 

[Aashir Mallik]

People are kind of ridiculous with Tavares. They act like he is washed and not an NHL player because they compare him to Matthews, Marner, and Willy (fair enough due to making 11M) but it is obvious he is not with them anymore. But is still way better than most players outside of them despite being slower and older.

I have no interest in JT at 6-7M because I think the cap dollars need to be allocated differently, or at least for a younger player in that role. But if he wants to take 3-4 for a few years? Uh absolutely are you kidding me?

Then his role better reflect that cap

No PP1, no playing with core 4. He’s strictly 3/4C and PP2

My worries are that his “reputation” will keep him up in the top 6 and pp1.
Not to mention his playoff performances make me just wanna wipe him from my memory and the team. Please don’t use one series winner to try and paint him a core piece in the playoffs who is a difference maker. I just wanna move on tbh, I don’t find much of an appeal of Tavares on the team at any cost

 

[Larcos_Unal]

2 series wins in the course of his entire career is a pretty crazy stat for a guy who's supposedly heading to the HOF.

 

[Gabriel426]

If he's that bad, is this team even
a contender for the playoffs?

Do you think ROR signs for 4. 25 in Toronto I don't think he does...

Doesn’t matter, he didn’t sign with the Leafs.