How much worse were the 12-13 Devils than the 11-12 Devils? | HFBoards - NHL Message Board and Forum for National Hockey League

How much worse were the 12-13 Devils than the 11-12 Devils?

Feed Me A Stray Cat

Registered User
Mar 27, 2005
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Boston, MA
On the surface, it would seem like a lot. The 11-12 Devils were within two wins of hoisting the Stanley Cup, while the 12-13 Devils missed the playoffs. The 11-12 Devils obviously had a more successful season, and following that cup run was one of the best moments I've had as a Devils fan.

With that said, I don't think the 11-12 team was much better than the 12-13 team. This might seem like a blasphemous statement on first glance, but hear me out.

First of all, while it's a great accomplishment to make it to Game 6 of the Stanley Cup, everyone should remember that the 11-12 season was extremely close to being noted as failure after Game 5 of the Florida series. New Jersey was extremely lucky to win back to back overtime games to advance to the semi finals. That team very easily could have been eliminated with a slightly different bounce of the puck, and everyone would remember 11-12 as a failure rather than a success. As a result, I'm going to focus the analysis on the regular season performances of both teams.

Points Percentage:
11-12 Devils: .622 (7th)
12-13 Devils: .500 (23rd)

That's a pretty vast disparity. However, the 11-12 Devils were the beneficiary of an incredible shootout performance, which was driven by a bit of skill but mostly luck (season to season variation in shootout performance is huge, and it's no wonder if one thinks about the mechanics of a shootout - a breakaway contest with only 3 shots per team). They finished 12-4 in the shootout that year, a .750 winning percentage, which was tops in the NHL.

The 12-13 Devils were not quite as fortunate. They finished with a 2-7 shoot out record, good for a .286 winning percentage. While the Devils lost a good shootout player in Zach Parise, the vast majority of the difference in performance was explained by Ilya Kovalchuk failing to repeat his ridiculous 11-14 performance and Brodeur/Hedberg stopping shots well below their career shootout norms (.700+ save percentage guys going to .555).

If one were to swap shootout winning percentages among the 11-12 and 12-13 Devils, the picture becomes a bit more interesting:

Adjusted Points Percentage:
11-12 Devils: .586 (12th)
12-13 Devils: .552 (18th)

While the 11-12 Devils are still better, the gap is much smaller.

What explains the remaining gap?

The 11-12 Devils' penalty kill, which finished at 89.6% and was the best PK the NHL has seen in quite some time. The 12-13 Devils finished at 81.1%, good for 16th best, a mediocre fate which is not uncommon for the reigning best PK in the league to experience in the season after. Why? Because success on the penalty kill is also fairly random, which is easy to understand considering the Devils posted the same penalty kill unit in 12-13 minus Zach Parise, and actually saw the deterioration of their PK luck begin in the 11-12 playoffs.

The performance of the 11-12 Devils penalty kill was truly extraordinary. The Devils finished -12 on the PK (27 PPGA, 15 SHGF) over an 82 game season, which is absolutely crazy. The median in is usually like -40, while the best team typically is at -25. We probably won't see that level of PK dominance for another several decades, if ever. Over an 82 game season the 12-13 Devils were on pace for a -36 on the PK.

The strength of the 11-12 Devils, at least in the regular season, rested in their insane shootout and penalty kill performances, which were entirely not repeatable.

So while many people like to allude to the loss of Zach Parise, "defensive breakdowns" and an overall inability to score as reasons why the 12-13 Devils sucked, they should be reminded that the shootout and penalty kill, things largely unrelated to the typical arguments given for the demise of the 12-13 Devils, were the primary drivers of a poor performance. The 12-13 Devils likely would have missed the playoffs even with Zach Parise.

What this means? The 11-12 Devils weren't as good as you thought they were, while the 12-13 Devils weren't as bad you thought they are. The 11-12 Devils were still better, but the gap was not cavernous. The 12-13 Devils led the NHL in shot differential and were an extremely good puck possession team, so expect a good finish with better goaltending and a more balanced offense, as well as hopefully some normal (not bad) luck.
 
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Shootouts were definitely the achilles heel of the 12-13 crew. Unfortunately, they had a few other heels scattered throughout that kept them away from the success of the year before.
 
good read.

how is schneider in SOs?

Without even looking I can guess that he doesn't have any near save attempts for numbers to give us any idea.

For example, the numbers told us for a long time that Hedberg is one of the best in the shootout, even though, IMO, most people could visually see he wasn't very good at it.
 
He's 6-5 career in shootouts (Schnieder), allowing 13 goals on 35 shots - though he was 0 for 3 in his rookie year on one shootout, so that skews it a bit.

Hedberg actually 'was' good in shootouts until last year. Then again he was a much better goalie period two years ago than last year anyway. When the reflexes go on a guy who isn't a pad monster, that's it. Even Marty had to start wearing slightly bigger pads the last couple years.
 
I definitely thought the penalty killing was a huge problem. Looked as ugly as it did for much of the 2012 playoffs. It's either gonna have to improve, or we're gonna have to continue scoring shorthanded goals at the same pace. I imagine it will still be a weapon offensively, I think we scored 3 shorthanded goals when Kovalchuk was injured. It was the same number as power play goals scored when he was injured.
 
The 12 Devils overachieved and the 13 team underachieved. Neither were really that good

I don't think the 12 team overachieved. If anything, they underachieved during the first half with the inconsistency and all the 3rd period leads they barfed up. They played to there potential after Poni, Carter, Bernier, and Zidlicky all came aboard. They were a bit lucky with all the shootout victories though.
 
So essentially the Pk and the shootout was the difference ...both areas Parise played a critical role in...the previous year...

Why don't you breakdown of both years Pk minutes ...that would show who replaced who and where deficit was...Gionta comes to mind first...

Same for the shootout...where was the deficit? Yes, Kovalchuk's shootout numbers were unsustainable, but that alone shouldn't have been the issue...goaltending and secondary scoring must be the issue...

Both case are directly related to the loss of Parise.
 
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The 12 Devils definitely got better during the season with all the additions/callups although I understand the point about being one goal away from yet another first-round flameout. Still I think that was the best Devils team since the lockout - depth in scoring and quality d-men up and down the lineup. The 06 Devils were more dominant at times but they were kind of a two-line team and played David Hale on a regular basis. We didn't have any d-men we had to hide last year other than Volch to a degree.
 
He's 6-5 career in shootouts (Schnieder), allowing 13 goals on 35 shots - though he was 0 for 3 in his rookie year on one shootout, so that skews it a bit.

Hedberg actually 'was' good in shootouts until last year. Then again he was a much better goalie period two years ago than last year anyway. When the reflexes go on a guy who isn't a pad monster, that's it. Even Marty had to start wearing slightly bigger pads the last couple years.
I think Moose could have still been good as a backup. I think playing all those games in a row (Which was a career high for him) is what killed him. Though I would also not bet against Marty getting injured again and Moose having to come in and the same thing happening all over again. He could probably still be a good backup somewhere, but not for a team with another 40+ year old starter that has an injury history the last 3 years.
I don't think the 12 team overachieved. If anything, they underachieved during the first half with the inconsistency and all the 3rd period leads they barfed up. They played to there potential after Poni, Carter, Bernier, and Zidlicky all came aboard. They were a bit lucky with all the shootout victories though.
Yeah some of the bottom 6 in those lineups were dreadful. I maintain that those were the worst 4th lines we've had in 20 years until Josefson-Carter-Bernier with like 5 or 6 games left in the season. The 3rd line was trash too, and provided very little offense until we got Poni that year.
 
That is true...when the Bernier Ponikarovsky Zubrus 3rd line was put together in 12' everything changed....it also marked getting Tedenby out of the lineup.
 
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What was our record first half and second half of last year? I'm pretty sure it was a lot better in the second half, even with a ton of SO wins in the first half that kept us afloat when we were on the playoff bubble at game 50 or so.

Just looked it up, the second half record was 25-12-4, though the second half began with the Calgary fiasco so it was 25-11-4 after that. And we were 'only' 4-3 in shootouts during the second half, 8-1 in shootouts during the first half (23-16-2 overall then).
 
The 12 Devils definitely got better during the season with all the additions/callups although I understand the point about being one goal away from yet another first-round flameout. Still I think that was the best Devils team since the lockout - depth in scoring and quality d-men up and down the lineup. The 06 Devils were more dominant at times but they were kind of a two-line team and played David Hale on a regular basis. We didn't have any d-men we had to hide last year other than Volch to a degree.

Yea I think they were the best group we've had since the lockout. The 09 team is right up there because of the offensive outbursts Parise, Zajac, and Langenbrunner had and the overall depth but the old farts definitely held us back(See: Carolina series) and the D wasn't as deep. They were rolling with White and Matteau as the "shutdown" pair which eventually did them in. Still think they would have went to the ECF if Shock at the Rock didn't go down.
 
See I think the '09 team overachieved a bit with Clemmensen, died late in the season under Sutter the way they did the previous year and got exposed by Carolina. I don't think they would have beat Washington even if the horror show didn't happen and we snuck through that series (I like your name, shock at the rock lol).
 
The Carolina announcers said that when we played them last year I think lol. Yea the 2nd half of the season death marches with Sutter at the helm were disturbing but the fact that they were still rolling with Madden, Pandolfo and eventually Shanahan, who were getting significant minutes (****ing Sutter) and Martin, Oduya, White and Matteau as the top 4 D definitely makes me think they overachieved a bit.
 
The 2012 team really came together in the later parts of the season and were a good team. Last year was a terrible combination of Parise gone and Kovalchuk with one foot out the door. The goaltending was bad and lost more than a few games. I expect this season to be much better, even with all the new faces. I don't want to throw the 2012 team under the bus just because they came just short of the cup, and then split up. They played the best hockey the Devils have seen in a long time.
 
That is true...when the Bernier Ponikarovsky Zubrus 3rd line was put together in 12' everything changed....it also marked getting Tedenby out of the lineup.

It was also around then that Pete's system started to stick and become more effective. By the time the playoffs rolled around our forecheck just took over.

With the PK, obviously we were not going to keep up the record breaking pace even if Zach returned. Either way the other fall of last year's team was the lack of compensation for a PK that faltered. Basically our PP was garbage, and that half of special teams gets exposed more if you are giving up more goals on the PK.
 
It was also around then that Pete's system started to stick and become more effective. By the time the playoffs rolled around our forecheck just took over.

With the PK, obviously we were not going to keep up the record breaking pace even if Zach returned. Either way the other fall of last year's team was the lack of compensation for a PK that faltered. Basically our PP was garbage, and that half of special teams gets exposed more if you are giving up more goals on the PK.

It's hard not to acknowledge the lineup changes in the 2nd half...the bottom 6 was completely transformed by the spring of 12...
It had size and strength we haven't seen in years and the puck possession was just unreal....

I still give most of the credit for 2012 run to the bottom 6...they were just fantastic. They had complete shifts in the O zone.

The line configurations changed a bit from March to April but they were key from the end of the regular season through the playoffs
 
See I think the '09 team overachieved a bit with Clemmensen, died late in the season under Sutter the way they did the previous year and got exposed by Carolina. I don't think they would have beat Washington even if the horror show didn't happen and we snuck through that series (I like your name, shock at the rock lol).

I definitely think that team overachieved too. Not so much offensively, but in the goals against for sure. Someway we stayed in the playoff race with a beer league goaltender in net most of the way. One who would regularly give up deflating goals that somehow wouldn't deflate the team. Also finishing with a 917 save percentage somehow.:amazed:

Going out the way we did definitely must have been payback for the success we had. That's one playoff exit I'm still not over. :rant:
 
It's hard not to acknowledge the lineup changes in the 2nd half...the bottom 6 was completely transformed by the spring of 12...
It had size and strength we haven't seen in years and the puck possession was just unreal....

I still give most of the credit for 2012 run to the bottom 6...they were just fantastic. They had complete shifts in the O zone.

The line configurations changed a bit from March to April but they were key from the end of the regular season through the playoffs

Yea that's why I'm hoping the 2013 team can repeat what we saw in the Spring of 2012 in regards to the forechecking. For the first time since then, were going to have the same amount of overall depth. Its no coincidence that as soon as Parise and Poni left the system went to hell. The depth last year was a joke. If Olesz can do a 2012 Poni impression and the overall puck possession is as good as we think it can be then the system will work.
 
I'd still like to see the breakdowns of the 2011-12 Pk and shootout vs 12-13...

Specifically on the shootout that goalie starts and save% and the top 3 shooters and percentage

The same for the PK...The PK minutes compared and contrasted and the on ice goals against....

My guess without seeing a single number is goaltending was an issue and the lack of Parise is the difference.
 

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