How much value do you put into these later Ovechkin seasons?

[895]

So Ovechkin looks like he has a good shot of winning another Rocket this year. Most likely, he won't finish in the top 10 in points though.

Legacy wise, what is the value of a season where you finish first in goals, add another trophy to the cabinet but you are arguably not a top 10 player?

Even now most people consider Crosby better than Ovehckin. But Ovechkin has a substantial lead in invidivual awards and this lead will grow as I don't think Crosby can win more awards with McDavid and Kucherov around but Ovechkin can still rack up the Rockets.


I don't want to use the term "compiler" because Ovechkin is undoubtedly elite still, but could Ovechkin compile enough Rockets to unseat Crosby?

Can you imagine a scenario 50 years in the future where younger fans argue that Ovechkin was clearly the best player of this era because of the hardware while the older fans insist that it was Crosby?

Click to read more...

 

[wetcoast]

So Ovechkin looks like he has a good shot of winning another Rocket this year. Most likely, he won't finish in the top 10 in points though.

Even if he doesn't win the rocket he will most likely be in the top 3 or 5 which is still amazing.

Legacy wise, what is the value of a season where you finish first in goals, add another trophy to the cabinet but you are arguably not a top 10 player?

It's still a very impressive thing at age 34 right?

Helps his prime argument alot.

Even now most people consider Crosby better than Ovehckin. But Ovechkin has a substantial lead in invidivual awards and this lead will grow as I don't think Crosby can win more awards with McDavid and Kucherov around but Ovechkin can still rack up the Rockets.

Most people consider Crosby the better player right now despite trophy counting.

I don't want to use the term "compiler" because Ovechkin is undoubtedly elite still, but could Ovechkin compile enough Rockets to unseat Crosby?

I guess it's possible say if crosby gets hurt today and retires and Ovechkin wins 2 or 3 more Richards and some more SC playoff success but highly unlikely given that Ovechkin is 34 and Crosby is 32 and the better player of the 2 right now. (so adding to his legacy as well).

Can you imagine a scenario 50 years in the future where younger fans argue that Ovechkin was clearly the best player of this era because of the hardware while the older fans insist that it was Crosby?

Sure some people will always be contrarians.

 

[JackSlater]

I think that it clearly helps. He's obviously not at his peak but the longevity is a benefit. Seasons like this would not be enough to put him above players who clearly peaked higher but it helps against someone like Bobby Hull.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if future opinion doesn't match contemporary opinion. That happens here and will probably continue as long as people look back at the sport.

 

[Boxscore]

I put a ton of value in these Ovechkin years. He's on his way to proving he is the single greatest goal scorer in NHL history, based on a combination of skill, shot, production, hardware, and longevity (in terms of being a dominant goal scorer). He is also proving to be a durable, physically dominant machine that has competed at an elite level longer than a large majority of other superstar elites.

If / when Ovie somehow breaks Gretzky's goal record, he will cement himself as the 5th best player in NHL history (in my opinion) behind Orr, Gretzky, Mario and Howe. If he breaks 99's record, he could very well hold the record as greatest goal scorer ever for decades, until the game radically changes. This is something no other player can match. And this accomplishment will be so dominant, it can not be equaled by other players who have more Cups, trophies, or playoff success, etc.

If you look at that top-5:

• Orr--greatest defenseman who ever lived
• Gretzky--greatest offensive machine and playmaker who ever lived
• Mario--most physically skilled player who ever lived, based on jaw-dropping talent
• Howe--greatest combo of size, skill, physicality and longevity in history
• Ovechkin--greatest goal scorer who ever lived

There are other greats, but none of them can claim to be the undisputed "greatest in history" at what they did, except for goaltender, which I put in a completely different category.

 

[The Panther]

These seasons are very important to his legacy. For example, when comparing him to another winger, Jaromir Jagr, it's clear (so I think) that Jagr had a higher peak, and that Jagr was a better-balanced player offensively (i.e., goal-scorer and playmaking). Jagr dominated NHL scoring for four seasons in a row by a degree that Ovechkin never did, even once.

However, not only is Ovechkin a much better and consistent goal-scorer than Jagr, he also has (by now) way more elite-level seasons. These latter-day elite seasons are adding a lot to his legacy.

To draw an analogy with lesser players, it's a bit like what the late-career elite seasons did for Mike Gartner vs. Dave Andreychuk. (If Andreychuk hadn't won the Cup in '04, would he be in the Hall now? I doubt it.) Gartner was still an elite goal-scorer until his next to last season. Once he slowed down a bit, he retired. But Andreychuk hung around forever as a third or fourth-line guy.

Ovechkin is not winning the Richard trophy this year, though!

 

[Boxscore]

Ovechkin is not winning the Richard trophy this year, though!

Those Oil kids and Pasta are looking scary--even Matthews. But Ovie has it in him to post back-to-back hattys and explode for 10 goals over 5 games. He's a machine.

 

[The Panther]

He's a machine.

Indeed. When was the last time someone his age won the goals-title?

 

[Boxscore]

Indeed. When was the last time someone his age won the goals-title?

Phil Esposito in 1975?

 

[daver]

These seasons are very important to his legacy. For example, when comparing him to another winger, Jaromir Jagr, it's clear (so I think) that Jagr had a higher peak, and that Jagr was a better-balanced player offensively (i.e., goal-scorer and playmaking). Jagr dominated NHL scoring for four seasons in a row by a degree that Ovechkin never did, even once.

However, not only is Ovechkin a much better and consistent goal-scorer than Jagr, he also has (by now) way more elite-level seasons. These latter-day elite seasons are adding a lot to his legacy.

To draw an analogy with lesser players, it's a bit like what the late-career elite seasons did for Mike Gartner vs. Dave Andreychuk. (If Andreychuk hadn't won the Cup in '04, would he be in the Hall now? I doubt it.) Gartner was still an elite goal-scorer until his next to last season. Once he slowed down a bit, he retired. But Andreychuk hung around forever as a third or fourth-line guy.

Ovechkin is not winning the Richard trophy this year, though!

That is very debatable. OV's 07/08 season is arguably right there with Jagr's 98/99 as being among the best post Mario/Wayne given his goal total that year. OV in 09/10 was on pace, as was Jagr in 99/00, to replicate that level of dominance.

As for the OP, they certainly hold some serious weight in an all-time sense, perhaps enough to overtake Hull who I think had the slighter higher and longer peak/prime (e.g. as the league;s best player or close to it).

 

[quoipourquoi]

Seasons 1-6
54 assists per 82 games
2 Rocket Richard Trophies

Seasons 7-14
32 assists per 82 games
6 Rocket Richard Trophies

It just seems like there’s been a sacrifice to make these goal-scoring titles happen. Even when he finished 2nd to Carey Price for the Hart, he finished 8th in points-per-game because his 28 assists just weren’t great (the league leader had 60 assists).

Consider the following: Ovechkin had fewer points than the 2nd-place finisher in goals in 2013 (Stamkos), 2014 (Perry), 2016 (Kane), and 2019 (Draisaitl). If these players were as singularly-focused on goals as Ovechkin, it’s not inconceivable that Ovechkin loses his stranglehold on the Rocket Richard Trophy.

2016 wasn’t even close, as Kane had 60 assists to Ovechkin’s 21 - and only trailed by 4 goals.

I’m much more impressed by seasons like Kane’s, where a player has a lot of goals and a lot of assists, even if they don’t necessarily lead the league in either. Jagr’s career, for instance, was filled with high finishes in the goal-scoring race, but never at the cost of superb assist numbers.

So unless something substantial happens, I just don’t see Ovechkin as being more than a fringe top-15 player like he is now. If Crosby didn’t exist, however, I think people would view Ovechkin much, much higher. Because then, you wouldn’t have the obvious comparison point (with a more normal ratio of offensive production that makes Crosby easier to compare with players historically) that serves as almost a cap for how high Ovechkin will be rated.

 

[K Fleur]

These later years include 17-18 season which is one of the most important seasons of Ovi’s career.

Looking at the big picture I think 05-10 is obviously the most important part of Ovi’s career, but these later seasons aren’t anything to sneeze at.

 

[filinski77]

Seasons 1-6
54 assists per 82 games
2 Rocket Richard Trophies

Seasons 7-14
32 assists per 82 games
6 Rocket Richard Trophies

It just seems like there’s been a sacrifice to make these goal-scoring titles happen. Even when he finished 2nd to Carey Price for the Hart, he finished 8th in points-per-game because his 28 assists just weren’t great (the league leader had 60 assists).

Consider the following: Ovechkin had fewer points than the 2nd-place finisher in goals in 2013 (Stamkos), 2014 (Perry), 2016 (Kane), and 2019 (Draisaitl). If these players were as singularly-focused on goals as Ovechkin, it’s not inconceivable that Ovechkin loses his stranglehold on the Rocket Richard Trophy.

2016 wasn’t even close, as Kane had 60 assists to Ovechkin’s 21 - and only trailed by 4 goals.

I’m much more impressed by seasons like Kane’s, where a player has a lot of goals and a lot of assists, even if they don’t necessarily lead the league in either. Jagr’s career, for instance, was filled with high finishes in the goal-scoring race, but never at the cost of superb assist numbers.

So unless something substantial happens, I just don’t see Ovechkin as being more than a fringe top-15 player like he is now. If Crosby didn’t exist, however, I think people would view Ovechkin much, much higher. Because then, you wouldn’t have the obvious comparison point (with a more normal ratio of offensive production that makes Crosby easier to compare with players historically) that serves as almost a cap for how high Ovechkin will be rated.

I haven't looked much into it, but I would consider a huge part of Ovi's drop off in assists to do with the quality of goal scorers around him. Ovi has always been an excellent playmaker, but earlier in his career he had more competent goalscorers in Seminary's/Green etc.

The last handful of years he's been passing to Backstrom/Kuznetsov etc. who just aren't great goalscorers and don't shoot the puck much. I'm sure there is stuff I am missing, but it's worth considering.

 

[filinski77]

As far as his legacy goes, I think it's very important. Most people agree Ovi has the best Peak of this generation (3 straight seasons leading in points and goals/game), including the best single season. The fact that he's been a dominant goal scoring machine even to 34 years old is crazy.

Ovi has proved he can be one of the best 30 years old + back halfs of his career in NHL history, I doubt crosby will be able to say the same.

For example, best seasons by age:
34: 102 points is #1, Ovi could finish with 90 points which would be 8th best all time. 47 goals is #1, Ovi could very well break that
33: Ovi has the #2 for goals, 11th for points
32: Ovi has #3 for goals, 10th for points
31: one of Ovi's worst years
30: Ovi has 5th for goals

Considering that a lot of the people with better numbers in these years were decades ago in a much higher scoring NHL, its crazy to see how consistently elite he has been since 30+ years old. People can dog on his point totals all they want, but if he finishes with 90 points this year, that would be 3 straight years (34/33/32) where he is around a top 10 all time in points for that age range (in a lower scoring NHL).

Not to mention he can still continue to compete for rockets, and still garner top 5 finishes)

 

[Michael Farkas]

There's definitely value for a lot of reasons. Great players are either great forever and/or they adapt their games to be useful in situations where they are no longer at their physical peak. But Ovechkin putting away another top-5 goal finish isn't gonna hurt him, I'll tell ya that for free...even if we realize he's not nearly as impactful as he was.

Even superficially, you want to leave a good taste in one's mouth...going out like Dryden or Bossy and going out like, say, Messier are two different things...

 

[Thenameless]

Since his peak has already been established, Ovechkin is now working on the longevity part of his legacy. And it's significant. While I don't think he will reach Gretzky's career goal total, just the fact that we can entertain it as a possibility in today's lower scoring environment, is an enormous accomplishment. If he gets anywhere close, he should be declared the greatest NHL goal scorer in history. I'd still maintain that Gretzky and Lemieux were better goal scorers, but their play-making duties took away from their career goal totals.

 

[LeBlondeDemon10]

Greatest goal scorer I am willing to concede, but I cannot slot him into top ten player all-time. His is a very interesting case as to where he will rank all-time.

 

[MadLuke]

Great from game one to a very long time will probably have a lot of value, it tend to be a constant of the greatest player they were at least very good/elite for a very long time, barring career derailing injury.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Seasons 1-6
54 assists per 82 games
2 Rocket Richard Trophies

Seasons 7-14
32 assists per 82 games
6 Rocket Richard Trophies

It just seems like there’s been a sacrifice to make these goal-scoring titles happen. Even when he finished 2nd to Carey Price for the Hart, he finished 8th in points-per-game because his 28 assists just weren’t great (the league leader had 60 assists).

Consider the following: Ovechkin had fewer points than the 2nd-place finisher in goals in 2013 (Stamkos), 2014 (Perry), 2016 (Kane), and 2019 (Draisaitl). If these players were as singularly-focused on goals as Ovechkin, it’s not inconceivable that Ovechkin loses his stranglehold on the Rocket Richard Trophy.

2016 wasn’t even close, as Kane had 60 assists to Ovechkin’s 21 - and only trailed by 4 goals.

I’m much more impressed by seasons like Kane’s, where a player has a lot of goals and a lot of assists, even if they don’t necessarily lead the league in either. Jagr’s career, for instance, was filled with high finishes in the goal-scoring race, but never at the cost of superb assist numbers.

So unless something substantial happens, I just don’t see Ovechkin as being more than a fringe top-15 player like he is now. If Crosby didn’t exist, however, I think people would view Ovechkin much, much higher. Because then, you wouldn’t have the obvious comparison point (with a more normal ratio of offensive production that makes Crosby easier to compare with players historically) that serves as almost a cap for how high Ovechkin will be rated.

I agree with this post. There's certainly value to what Ovechkin is doing, and it's conceivable that he'll end up as the greatest goal-scorer in NHL history by the time he's done - but the last time he recorded 40 assists was when he was 25, and that's suppressed his overall scoring totals. There have been 34 90+ point seasons from 2011 onwards, and Ovechkin doesn't have any of them (though he's had many close calls).

Not to drag Crosby into this, but one thing that's always bugged me is the "Ovechkin has more trophies than Crosby" argument. That's literally true, but it's because the NHL has an award that rewards Ovechkin's specialty (goal-scoring). Crosby (like Jagr) was a well-rounded offensive talent - and there's no trophy for that.

For example, in 2016 Ovechkin gets a trophy for leading the league in goals, but finished 15th in scoring. Crosby was 3rd in scoring, but gets nothing. Before someone says that Crosby scored more points because of secondary assists, even if we eliminate every single one, Crosby is still ahead (64 vs 56 primary points). So Crosby has more primary points production, but because he was nicely balanced between goals and assists, he gets nothing, but Ovechkin gets a trophy - that doesn't accurately reflect what happened on the ice.

2019 is another good example. Crosby was again a better primary points producer (84 vs 77). Crosby was a balanced scorer, Ovechkin was heavily slanted towards goals. So Ovechkin gets a trophy for being a less balanced player, but Crosby was more productive overall (and clearly a better defensive player). Again, that doesn't reflect the reality of what happened on the ice.

Ovechkin seems to have shed the "never been past the second round" stigma, and as I said, he very well could finish his career as the greatest goal-scorer in NHL history. If we're taking the Richard trophies (and/or LW all-star selections at face value - even though we shouldn't for either), he might end up with the largest trophy collection all-time among forwards (excluding the three I don't need to name). But I agree that Crosby seems to be a hard cap as to how high he can finish in the all-time rankings (which may not be much of a cap at all, as he very well could end up #5 all-time depending on how his career plays out).

 

[BenchBrawl]

His 2014-2015 season was different. He was better and more involved that year. Easily his best since 2009-2010.

Winning the Stanley Cup is what made his resume jumped over the abyss. It cannot be understated the reputational blackhole he avoided. It changed everything. He was looking into the abyss, and Marcel Dionne and Joe Thornton were looking right back at him !

His later years—excluding 2014-2015—is just repeating the same thing over and over again inside his comfort zone. He IS a compiler; a luxurious one. He's a sniper, not the dominant force he used to be. Not reaching 40 assists in 8 years is terrible.

 

[filinski77]

As I mentioned per above, Ovi's playmaking skill hasn't declined, but looking at all caps since 2011/2012, other than Ovi:

1x 30 goal scorer (oshie with 33)
4x 25 goal scorer

Looking at the Penguins for example, and excluding Crosby:

1x 50 goal scorer
3x 40 goal scorers
3x 30 goal scorers
10x 25 goal scorers

Note that these aren't stacked (ie. a 40 goal scorer does not also get counted as a 30 goal scorer etc.)

Of course, Crosby is a better playmaker than Ovi is, but I think it is worth considering that he has had better finishers and goal scorers to feed the puck too. Watching as many caps games as I do, it's frustrating watching Ovi make really great passing plays just to have the shooter not be able to bury it.

 

[seventieslord]

Seasons 1-6
54 assists per 82 games
2 Rocket Richard Trophies

Seasons 7-14
32 assists per 82 games
6 Rocket Richard Trophies

It just seems like there’s been a sacrifice to make these goal-scoring titles happen. Even when he finished 2nd to Carey Price for the Hart, he finished 8th in points-per-game because his 28 assists just weren’t great (the league leader had 60 assists).

Consider the following: Ovechkin had fewer points than the 2nd-place finisher in goals in 2013 (Stamkos), 2014 (Perry), 2016 (Kane), and 2019 (Draisaitl). If these players were as singularly-focused on goals as Ovechkin, it’s not inconceivable that Ovechkin loses his stranglehold on the Rocket Richard Trophy.

2016 wasn’t even close, as Kane had 60 assists to Ovechkin’s 21 - and only trailed by 4 goals.

I’m much more impressed by seasons like Kane’s, where a player has a lot of goals and a lot of assists, even if they don’t necessarily lead the league in either. Jagr’s career, for instance, was filled with high finishes in the goal-scoring race, but never at the cost of superb assist numbers.

So unless something substantial happens, I just don’t see Ovechkin as being more than a fringe top-15 player like he is now. If Crosby didn’t exist, however, I think people would view Ovechkin much, much higher. Because then, you wouldn’t have the obvious comparison point (with a more normal ratio of offensive production that makes Crosby easier to compare with players historically) that serves as almost a cap for how high Ovechkin will be rated.

^^^this guy gets it

 

[Michael Farkas]

Yeah, this is a pretty flimsy branch...whether you're right or wrong, it's just not a productive way to go about it at a glance...

 

[MadLuke]

I do not know about Ovie playmaking for say, but peak Ovie ability to create overall offense and to over create shot for when he was on the ice was quite something (all time good), the must have lead to quite the goal scored when he was on the ice (rebound and what not) and helped is assist total.

 

[psycat]

Funnily Crosby is the true compiler, in fact he is a generational compiler in my book. Ovechkin is already ahead of him based on peak alone. Nvm being arguably the greatest goalscorer of all time.

 

[MadLuke]

Main piece of multiple cup winning team is a bit of an exact opposition to compilation no ?