How Many Points Would Gretzky Have In Today's Game?

[MessierII]

The most

 

[PJT]

Whoever was comparing older versions (age 38-40) of Lemieux and Gretzky in the clutch-and-grab era to some of today's point producers were making a good argument. I think that really spells just how amazing these talents were, and that they would undoubtedly be leading the league today as well. Maybe not by the wide margins they beat their peers in the 80s and 90s, but they'd be doing well nonetheless.

I have to say from an objective standpoint, some of today's players possess skills and moves that I've never seen any of the greats pull off, but that'll come naturally out of necessity given how tough opponents are nowadays. When defense and goaltending are tougher than ever, you have to get creative out there. But as we all know, the game is so much more than skill and talent alone. E.g. Datsyuk may be one of the more skilled guys to ever play the game, but he's not even a point-per-game player in his career.

To answer the original question, he'd be winning scoring titles because he'd be doing modern training and using his superior hockey brain to push him above his competition.

 

[TMLFOREVER**]

Unfortunately, your chart doesn't give a good enough answer. Just because players are on the same line, it doesn't mean their time on ice stats will be close. The differences between Bure, Jagr and Kariya and their team's next forward were 8.5, 2.5 and 3.

I really don't think Gretzky was rarely playing 22-23 minutes a game. 22-23 minutes for a forward was definitely not rare, but rather the norm for a superstar player. Bure was playing 27 minutes and Jagr, Mario, Sakic, Kariya were playing 24-26.

I just think it's reasonable to think that Gretzky was playing close to 25 minutes a game because other star players were doing the same. If you disagree with this statement, you at least have to agree that Gretzky was definitely playing more than the average star player today. Back in 1999, over 20 forwards logged more time per game than any forward in 2017..

Where are you getting this stuff? Are you just making to up as you go? Bure joined the league in the 1991/92 season. TOI didn't start until 1998-1999 season.

And if you bothered to fill in the chart you would see its not that easy to give the first line more than 23 minutes. And of course not with regards to accurate clocking of TOI. Of course every player plays differently, thats why I used those special words called "on average"

If you are going to continue to just make up your numbers, we can no longer debate this as I find it a waste of time. Gretzky's TOI in his last year was 21.04

It can be said that Bure had more TOI than average because he played on teams that did not have the depth, therefore was relied upon to be on the ice more and in more situations. Bure Played PP and Pk

 

[TheBaxMan*]

Where are you getting this stuff? Are you just making to up as you go? Bure joined the league in the 1991/92 season. TOI didn't start until 1998-1999 season.

And if you bothered to fill in the chart you would see its not that easy to give the first line more than 23 minutes. And of course not with regards to accurate clocking of TOI. Of course every player plays differently, thats why I used those special words called "on average"

If you are going to continue to just make up your numbers, we can no longer debate this as I find it a waste of time. Gretzky's TOI in his last year was 21.04

It can be said that Bure had more TOI than average because he played on teams that did not have the depth, therefore was relied upon to be on the ice more and in more situations. Bure Played PP and Pk

I was referrring to one of the seasons in the 2000s in which Bure played 27 minutes a game.

------------------------------------------

I'm not filling out your chart because it won't produce an accurate answer:

Your chart assumes each line will have approximately the same ice time. This isn't true. Like I said, guys like Jagr and Kariya were playing 2.5-3 more minutes than their linemates. Bure played nearly 9 more minutes.

You claim Gretzky always played with Kurri, but the fact is Gretzky played more. Gretzky's plus minus numbers were way higher. How could there be such a great difference in plus minus if they always played together?

You also claim Messier, Anderson, Summonen, MacTavish and McLellan had "significant" ice time.. but didn't Gretzky play more than those guys?

 

[deletethis]

No doubt that he would have to adapt to the modern game to dominate it. The time and space he used to have is non-existent in the modern game. He wouldn't be physically untouchable as no player is untouchable any longer. Every team cuts off passing and shooting lanes with varying levels of success. If there is somebody who could tailor his game to fit the era, I bet it's Gretzky. No doubt he'd be a different player: more strongly built, even higher tempo and with better open ice speed.

 

[ulvvf]

Obviously Wayne is the greatest ever.

How would he do in a season of today's game?

70pish. Extremly overrated player and far from the best. The best I would probably say is Mario, wayne far back on the list.

 

[Ducks in a row]

70pish. Extremly overrated player and far from the best. The best I would probably say is Mario, wayne far back on the list.

This must be a joke. Gretzky in his later 30's had a 72 point season and a 67 point season. Even his final season he had 53 points in 70 games. He would be PPG+ if he was young and 100% healthy again. Too skilled too smart too much of a hard worker to be a 70ish player in his prime.

 

[pitcher]

In 2002/2003 38 year old Mario Lemieux scored 91 points in 67 games, a PPG ratio of 1.38. Goals per game that year averaged 5.14. He was coming off a broken back and cancer.

In 2016-2017, a prime 29 year old Crosby scored 89 points in 75 games, a PPG ratio of 1.18. Goals per game this past season was 5.45

Seeing as a broken down 38 year old Lemieux could outscore a prime Sidney Crosby in a lower scoring era, I think Gretzky would do just fine in today's game

Exactly. Lemieux, just like Greztky, would dominate today's game. They would make today's stars looks like the other great players they were playing with/against, the Yzermans, Sakics, Messiers, Jagr, etc.

 

[deletethis]

This must be a joke. Gretzky in his later 30's had a 72 point season and a 67 point season. Even his final season he had 53 points in 70 games. He would be PPG+ if he was young and 100% healthy again. Too skilled too smart too much of a hard worker to be a 70ish player in his prime.

Enhancing your point: you're actually listing his assist totals for last 3 seasons. His actual last 3 seasons' point totals were 97 (4th in the league) , 90 (3rd in the league) and 62.

I think the biggest impediment for Gretzky in the modern NHL would have been his back. He had a bad back with less than average contact. How long would his back have handled the type of physical contact the stars of today get?

 

[X66]

101 points.

People have to realize that elite talent adapts to the game.

This is why Sakic could score 100 points at his age.

This is why Lemieux was still putting up monster numbers in the twilight of his career.

Gretzky would be fine, likely winning scoring titles left right and center.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Enhancing your point: you're actually listing his assist totals for last 3 seasons. His actual last 3 seasons' point totals were 97 (4th in the league) , 90 (3rd in the league) and 62.

I think the biggest impediment for Gretzky in the modern NHL would have been his back. He had a bad back with less than average contact. How long would his back have handled the type of physical contact the stars of today get?

Gretzky had a bad back because (among other things) he got boarded by Suter hitting him from behind at full tilt. Be real here.

 

[Paperbagofglory]

Gretzky was one of the better conditioned athletes in the 80's. I think people are mistaking muscle mass and size over endurance. This is a guy that would spend the offseasons hiking for 4 to 8 hours a day. In an interview he mentioned his conditioning was a big part of why he was so good. He could be at full energy after resting on the bench for 10 seconds as opposed to most othet players needing the full rest. He was double shifted constantly and played insanely high minutes for a forward. If anything he was ahead of his time and would fit right in with the modern game.

 

[Dustin]

All of the points.

 

[MSZ]

If Wayne and Mario play in today's NHL, and play on cup contenders, those teams would often force the opposite team to play their offensive style, so the overall scoring of all teams won't be as low as we currently see. Easy 10+ 150 points seasons from those two in their prime.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Gretzky was one of the better conditioned athletes in the 80's. I think people are mistaking muscle mass and size over endurance. This is a guy that would spend the offseasons hiking for 4 to 8 hours a day. In an interview he mentioned his conditioning was a big part of why he was so good. He could be at full energy after resting on the bench for 10 seconds as opposed to most othet players needing the full rest. He was double shifted constantly and played insanely high minutes for a forward. If anything he was ahead of his time and would fit right in with the modern game.

Yeah, apparently Gretzky's endurance and recovery were off the charts. From what I understand Guy Lafleur was another guy like that too.

It is like people don't understand diminishing returns around here.

The human body hasn't changed that much in a long time so even if you're using better and better methods you have to train with an ever increasing amount of effort/precision to capture that next increase.

There are plenty of players playing today that don't look like much of anything when you see them, to be honest. The idea that today's players are bionic superheroes really needs to go away.

The game is much faster paced primarily because shifts are very short now.. and to a lesser degree because equipment is much better and lighter.

 

[Boxscore]

Well, there's a couple of things to consider...

1. WHO would Gretzky be playing with? During his hay day, he was blessed to play with multiple HHOFers. Are we imagining that he's playing with a prime Kurri, Messier, Coffey, etc. as well? Or, are we removing McDavid and swapping him for Gretzky, etc.? This will make a difference.

2. We also need to assume that Gretzky would benefit from the training, preparation, fitness, nutrition, equipment advances and coaching of today as well.

I'm assuming that Gretzky wouldn't be returning with his Oil dynasty teammates, instead we'll (for arguments sake) put him in Connor McDavid's exact situation. So, I'll venture a guess that 2016-17 NHL scoring would have ended up like this...

1. Wayne Gretzky, 129 points (instead of McDavid and his 100 points)
2. Sidney Crosby, 89 points
3. Patrick Kane, 89 points
4. Nicklas Backstrom, 86 points
5. Brad Marchand, 85 points

etc. ...

Now, let's look at 2015-16 for comparison...

1. Wayne Gretzky, 137 points
2. Patrick Kane, 106 points
3. Jamie Benn, 89 points
4. Sidney Crosby, 85 points
5. Joe Thornton, 82 points


And, finally, I'll look at 2006-07 for "modern day" context...

1. Wayne Gretzky, 159 points
2. Sidney Crosby, 120 points
3. Joe Thornton, 114 points
4. Vincent Lecavalier, 108 points
5. Dany Heatley, 105 points

So, I guess what I'm saying is that, IMO, Gretzky would still dominate offensively but he wouldn't be close to 200+ points.

Conversely, I also agree with the poster who said that Mario Lemieux would OUTSCORE Wayne Gretzky in today's game. Not by much, but I think he would. Mario's size and shot placement would make him lethal today, especially since players couldn't hold him, whack him, and drape themselves all over him. Throw Lemieux into the mix (in a similar Gretzky scenario) and I see this...

2016-17

1. Mario Lemieux, 134 points
2. Wayne Gretzky, 129 points (instead of McDavid and his 100 points)
3. Sidney Crosby, 89 points
4. Patrick Kane, 89 points
5. Nicklas Backstrom, 86 points

2015-16

1. Mario Lemieux, 142 points
2. Wayne Gretzky, 137 points
3. Patrick Kane, 106 points
4. Jamie Benn, 89 points
5. Sidney Crosby, 85 points

2006-07

1. Mario Lemieux, 165 points
2. Wayne Gretzky, 159 points
3. Sidney Crosby, 120 points
4. Joe Thornton, 114 points
5. Vincent Lecavalier, 108 points

Again, Mario wouldn't be hitting 199, but he would have a stranglehold on the Art Ross and Rocket Richard IMO.

 

[HOUSUTON]

Considering defenders are slalom sticks no more, star fishes in the net no more, Gretzky would score no more than McDavid today

 

[Paperbagofglory]

Yeah, apparently Gretzky's endurance and recovery were off the charts. From what I understand Guy Lafleur was another guy like that too.

It is like people don't understand diminishing returns around here.

The human body hasn't changed that much in a long time so even if you're using better and better methods you have to train with an ever increasing amount of effort/precision to capture that next increase.

There are plenty of players playing today that don't look like much of anything when you see them, to be honest. The idea that today's players are bionic superheroes really needs to go away.

The game is much faster paced primarily because shifts are very short now.. and to a lesser degree because equipment is much better and lighter.

Because players have to be bigger these days to survive the modern game most are over training resulting in a lot more injuries. Its great that more than half the players have the physique of a power forward, its not easy on the lower body especially playing such a taxing game like hockey. There was a player not too long ago that commented how Drew Doughty does not look like anything special physically yet the player was surprised during training camp how quick and well conditioned Doughty was, apparently having a bit of a gut=bad athlete. Even modern players are getting fooled into thinking that strength training is the ultimate way to be the best hockey player. A lot of modern sports have this epidemic including tennis.where knee injuries are at an ultimate high.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Because players have to be bigger these days to survive the modern game most are over training resulting in a lot more injuries.

They are not bigger than they were in the dead puck era.

Its great that more than half the players have the physique of a power forward, its not easy on the lower body especially playing such a taxing game like hockey. There was a player not too long ago that commented how Drew Doughty does not look like anything special physically yet the player was surprised during training camp how quick and well conditioned Doughty was, apparently having a bit of a gut=bad athlete. Even modern players are getting fooled into thinking that strength training is the ultimate way to be the best hockey player. A lot of modern sports have this epidemic including tennis.where knee injuries are at an ultimate high.

So they are both training super hard and ripped power forward types, and have a bit of a gut at the same time.. I'm sorry I'm having trouble keeping track of which narrative to follow regarding how todays players are bionic superheroes.

They aren't. Being jacked has very little to do with being a good hockey player -- Doughty, Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, etc. plainly show that.

 

[Boxscore]

Considering defenders are slalom sticks no more, star fishes in the net no more, Gretzky would score no more than McDavid today

I think that's outlandish. Gretzky is a better player than McDavid, pure and simple. The only thing McDavid has on Gretzky is pure speed. Gretzky was the most brilliant hockey mind of all-time and was a better passer, shooter and scorer than McDavid. He also made his teammates significantly better, hence more assists and overall points.

Guys like Gretzky, Lemieux and Orr transcend eras. They would be the elite of the elite regardless of era - they were demigods among mortals. Gordie was close too.

 

[Paperbagofglory]

They are not bigger than they were in the dead puck era.



So they are both training super hard and ripped power forward types, and have a bit of a gut at the same time.. I'm sorry I'm having trouble keeping track of which narrative to follow regarding how todays players are bionic superheroes.

They aren't. Being jacked has very little to do with being a good hockey player -- Doughty, Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, etc. plainly show that.

Sorry i am saying that elite athletes will always be so despite the advancements in nutrition and fitness. Its more about genetics. The point was someone likr Doughty who does not look like the prototypical defenseman is one of the best ones in the game. I am saying players with less talent are overcompansating by working harder in the gym but the skill level gap remains high between elite and bottom sixer. They may have better conditioning and can play longer shifts, and are better skaters thats about it. Sorry the point flew over your head.

 

[BraveCanadian]

Sorry i am saying that elite athletes will always be so despite the advancements in nutrition and fitness. Its more about genetics. The point was someone likr Doughty who does not look like the prototypical defenseman is one of the best ones in the game. I am saying players with less talent are overcompansating by working harder in the gym but the skill level gap remains high between elite and bottom sixer. They may have better conditioning and can play longer shifts, and are better skaters thats about it. Sorry the point flew over your head.

Definitely a better hockey player is better at hockey than a worse hockey player. I don't know why you'd think this is something new.

Working out for a beach body doesn't change that, there are plenty of examples even in today's NHL of players that don't look like much who are the best in the world. I think more sport specific training is the reason -- they are more focused on core and legs which make sense for hockey.

 

[Paperbagofglory]

Definitely a better hockey player is better at hockey than a worse hockey player. I don't know why you'd think this is something new.

Working out for a beach body doesn't change that, there are plenty of examples even in today's NHL of players that don't look like much who are the best in the world. I think more sport specific training is the reason -- they are more focused on core and legs which make sense for hockey.

The difference is, today's players are gym rats while the guys in the 80's were prone to not even working out until training camp. There were players smoking during the intermissions or chugging Pepsi between intermissions.

What you are seeing today is a better conditioned athlete who is having a longer and healthier career and playing the game and quicker speeds than 30 years ago. This however fools people into thinking players have all magically gotten better than all the legends of the game and how scrubs like Gretzky would struggle to score points today because he was the size of Patrick Kane.

 

[BraveCanadian]

The difference is, today's players are gym rats while the guys in the 80's were prone to not even working out until training camp. There were players smoking during the intermissions or chugging Pepsi between intermissions.

There are plenty of exceptions to this rule both ways.

What you are seeing today is a better conditioned athlete who is having a longer and healthier career and playing the game and quicker speeds than 30 years ago.

Don't know about that.

This however fools people into thinking players have all magically gotten better than all the legends of the game and how scrubs like Gretzky would struggle to score points today because he was the size of Patrick Kane.

Right.

 

[authentic]

They are not bigger than they were in the dead puck era.



So they are both training super hard and ripped power forward types, and have a bit of a gut at the same time.. I'm sorry I'm having trouble keeping track of which narrative to follow regarding how todays players are bionic superheroes.

They aren't. Being jacked has very little to do with being a good hockey player -- Doughty, Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, etc. plainly show that.

I don't think being jacked is ever the question about modern players vs. older ones, but Crosby, Malkin and Ovechkin both display a skill, strength and athleticism combination vastly superior to any player before the 90s, that's not really debatable. I sincerely doubt Gretzky would be physically capable of dominating today like he did in the 80s, or anywhere close really, regardless of how great his stamina was.