Speculation: How Many Players Now Regret the Tortorella Firing?

[OverTheCap]

AV cites lack of effort as the team's biggest issue:

The biggest problem, however, is the team’s inconsistent effort, coach Alain Vigneault said.

“I do know that my teams compete, my teams play hard, and they’re hard to play,” he said. “We haven’t been that way, and it’s my responsibility to get us there.”

Vigneault said he has not been happy with the 2-5-0 Rangers’ effort in just two of their seven games.

When asked how they can improve on that, he simply said: “It’s just about being a professional.

“It’s not very hard to understand what I want,” Vigneault said. “It’s a matter of them putting the right compete level on the ice. If you do that, usually you’re in pretty good shape.”

McDonagh admits that they deflate when things go wrong:

“If something bad happens, we’ve got to be able to respond in the right fashion,” the defenseman said. “We haven’t done that consistently enough. It seems like when we’ve given up a goal, we’ve become deflated and gone away from what we’ve done in the past to be successful.”

http://nypost.com/2013/10/22/alain-vigneault-rangers-must-play-harder/

 

[Florida Ranger]

Not sure how lack of talent up front translates to us getting blown out most nights. Losing 9-5 isn't any better than losing 9-2. In fact, we played perhaps our best game of the season when we were missing our top forward.

The players obviously don't miss Torts, and most fans don't either, but the product he was able to ice each night was far more appealing than what we've seen so far. Trying to file it down to "We need Torts!" is just plain narrow-minded. New system, new coach, bad schedule, rough camp, plenty of injuries. Torts would have had plenty of problems as well.

I agree 100%. AV is here now. I didn't want to see Tortorella go, but he's gone...

It's still early... That's why none of us should really panic yet. The team hasn't been healthy. They just got back from being on the west coast all of the preseason and most of the regular season. That's brutal. Hank will find his stride and we'll be back to normal talking about how we need more goal scoring...

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Not sure how lack of talent up front translates to us getting blown out most nights. Losing 9-5 isn't any better than losing 9-2. In fact, we played perhaps our best game of the season when we were missing our top forward.

The players obviously don't miss Torts, and most fans don't either, but the product he was able to ice each night was far more appealing than what we've seen so far. Trying to file it down to "We need Torts!" is just plain narrow-minded. New system, new coach, bad schedule, rough camp, plenty of injuries. Torts would have had plenty of problems as well.

I agree.

At the same time, I think Tortorella instilled a foundation that many fans took for granted over the last couple of seasons.

That "Clean Slate" stuff is proving to be prophetic. With a clean slate you can get rid of the bad and the ugly, but you also get rid of the good.

 

[pld459666]

The only player who expressed any love for Tortorella was Girardi. He said Tortorella was a great guy. The other ones didn't say that. Some of the longer term Rangers said they appreciate how Tortorella helped them and that's it. Henrik might have been the only one to call him. Richards called Tortorella but the call was never returned. Time to let go.

Interesting that Torts wouldn't call Richards back after Torts all but admitted that he himself ruined his relationship with Richards.

 

[True Blue]

none, Torts was basically a bully behind the bench and that only works on a high school team. Professional players don't respond to his kind of degrading.

Wrong. The players DID respond. Night in and night out. There was never a night that the effort was not there.

 

[HockeyBasedNYC]

While I didnt agree with the firing when it happened, I understood why the move was made. But I felt that it was a shortsighted move like many of this franchises past decisions.

I think its too early to make an assessment on whether or not AV is the right guy here or not and if players regret driving Torts out of town.

The thing that bothers me the most is that the Rangers management & Sather consistently turn the team over every summer with major additions or subtractions. You are almost guaranteed to have a break in period. Top line players, coaches, systems. (Not to mention the renovations, lockout, and other distractions the past few years)

The one year they brought back a majority of the team and didn't turn over too much was two years ago when they had a great season. Sure, health has been a huge factor as well. Which is why its difficult to get a real read on this team and the coaching staff.

If AV gets canned Sather and co. will look like fools if you ask me. What next then? Just reshuffle the deck again? Then what happens when they buy out Richards? You push him out and then you bring in more pieces, most likely in major positions from the UFA market. You can't win like that in this league. Constantly trying to find the right combinations like a mad scientist.

Looking back now, with the new coach coming in it was probably a good time to buy-out Richards and start building again. Whatever. With Nash out this team is going nowhere fast anyway, and even with Nash at 100% the jury is still out on his crunch time play in NY anyway.

When you look at this roster completely healthy its not a bad one. But thats not the reality right now.

Not fun.

 

[BroadwayBlues]

I agree.

At the same time, I think Tortorella instilled a foundation that many fans took for granted over the last couple of seasons.

That "Clean Slate" stuff is proving to be prophetic. With a clean slate you can get rid of the bad and the ugly, but you also get rid of the good.

That's looking like a huge mistake.

Perhaps he assumed because the team fired their coach, that it was a lot of bad here?

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

Wrong. The players DID respond. Night in and night out. There was never a night that the effort was not there.

I agree. In fact to take it one step forward, I don't think a bully works for a high school team. I think the biggest problem with Torts was there was tough love with not enough of the love part.

 

[GordonGecko]

How Many Players Now Regret the Tortorella Firing?

Zero to three?

pretty much, leaning towards the low side of your estimate

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Frankly, I dont care who is happy about the firing, or who regrets it. The only time that these guys earned the right to have such an opinion was when Tortorella was coaching them. I think that speaks volumes.

 

[Jim Ramsay]

AV cites lack of effort as the team's biggest issue:



McDonagh admits that they deflate when things go wrong:



http://nypost.com/2013/10/22/alain-vigneault-rangers-must-play-harder/

Sounds like AV is getting a little fed up with some of the players on the team. I have a feeling we are going to seeing a very different roster at the end of the season than the one that started the season.....

Injuries have decimated the team on the top lines, but there are still just too many players that aren't providing much of any thing right now.

 

[offdacrossbar]

The lack of talent up front doesn't explain the lethargy, lack of urgency and lack of intensity which they've played with more often than not.

please look back at the top 9 forwards we have been subjected to. its like weve been rolling 3 3rd lines and a 4th.

not only is it hard to watch, its hard to coach and its hard to produce anything when your team IS DEVOID OF TALENT.

and when youve got slugs like we have playing in our top 9 and on our first pp unit, are you really surprised about the lack of intensity and ungency and lethargy ?

these guys cant skate, they cant shoot, they cannot pass and they cant score. that is a recipe for bad hockey and bad hockey wears you down.

we have a total of 3 forwards who have scored a goal so far this season. and 2 of those guys have 7 of the 8 total goals. think about that.

we are last in gpg @ 1.57 and worst in gaa @ 4.14. thats unmanageable and unsustainable. period. and imo, it goes beyond effort and intensity.

its a TALENT issue.

given all this, are you surprised that out compete level is lacking ?

you have been watching the same games yes?

 

[bernmeister]

The increasing fester of a problem that was Torts/his system would only grow larger if he remained.

AV has a better system, in theory BUT like any system, it needs the correct parts.

AVs system requires SPEED. Not surprising, in nearly every sport, speed kills.

Rangers have most of lineup w/basic speed.

Elite speed guys are Hagelin, Kreider, Miller and to lesser extent Cally and Fast.

AV should have addressed lower guys on the roster and dumped likes of Pyatt.

Try to get complementary linemates, best example is

Kreider-Miller-Fast

That plus upgrade our talent and balance out our surplus LD for RD and that covers most of it. Heart and determination and drive vary from player to player. Rookies that are trying not to make mistakes are not showing a lack of intensity, just that its a learning process.

 

[SingnBluesOnBroadway]

please look back at the top 9 forwards we have been subjected to. its like weve been rolling 3 3rd lines and a 4th.

not only is it hard to watch, its hard to coach and its hard to produce anything when your team IS DEVOID OF TALENT.

and when youve got slugs like we have playing in our top 9 and on our first pp unit, are you really surprised about the lack of intensity and ungency and lethargy ?

these guys cant skate, they cant shoot, they cannot pass and they cant score. that is a recipe for bad hockey and bad hockey wears you down.

we have a total of 3 forwards who have scored a goal so far this season. and 2 of those guys have 7 of the 8 total goals. think about that.

we are last in gpg @ 1.57 and worst in gaa @ 4.14. thats unmanageable and unsustainable. period. and imo, it goes beyond effort and intensity.

its a TALENT issue.

given all this, are you surprised that out compete level is lacking ?

you have been watching the same games yes?

You've done a great job of explaining why the team has been offensively anemic.

It does not, however, explain the lack of intensity, hard work and effort.

 

[chosen]

How many games was that? 2?

It was a couple more than two. Granted it was a small sample, but there were plenty of injuries under Torts.

Most importantly, in 50 or so years of watching the Rangers, they are playing as poorly as I have ever seen them start a season. They are not just losing. They are being obliterated.

 

[offdacrossbar]

You've done a great job of explaining why the team has been offensively anemic.

It does not, however, explain the lack of intensity, hard work and effort.

to me its related, its connected. in other words, you cannot separate the two.

and for the record, this is NOT something new. this has been an issue for sometime.

our lack of intensity i see as a lack of results.

the hard work thing, thats a lack of execution.

effort. well to me, thats a lack of success.

and when you have no short term success like dominating a shift, scoring a goal, winning a period, or a game.... it becomes increasingly, exponentially more difficult to gather the emotion and energy needed to compete knowing you arent good enough. eventually, you look drained and lacking of effort.

im not buying into the less talented teams can win with effort and intensity stuff. maybe with torts and his "system" we could fake it and limp along. not with av. we are now exposed for what we are.

if you cannot score, you cannot win unless you have hank being hank and hes not. he lets in 2 softies and were toast.

if you cannot score, you cannot win. when your collective spirit is weakend, the results are what weve seen so far.

like i said. all connected.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

The increasing fester of a problem that was Torts/his system would only grow larger if he remained.

AV has a better system, in theory BUT like any system, it needs the correct parts.

AVs system requires SPEED. Not surprising, in nearly every sport, speed kills.

Rangers have most of lineup w/basic speed.

Elite speed guys are Hagelin, Kreider, Miller and to lesser extent Cally and Fast.

AV should have addressed lower guys on the roster and dumped likes of Pyatt.

Try to get complementary linemates, best example is

Kreider-Miller-Fast

That plus upgrade our talent and balance out our surplus LD for RD and that covers most of it. Heart and determination and drive vary from player to player. Rookies that are trying not to make mistakes are not showing a lack of intensity, just that its a learning process.

You continue to refer to Kreider as an elite speed guy when hes simply been unable to use that speed in any noteworthy capacity at the NHL level. It makes your nonsensical arguments even further from any basis in reality, if thats even possible.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

You've done a great job of explaining why the team has been offensively anemic.

It does not, however, explain the lack of intensity, hard work and effort.

Bingo. I think this team stinks.

Even if they had the same crappy record, it'd be a little more satisfying to see them play with some passion and pride. Maybe a -10 goal differential instead of -18 through 7 games.

 

[chosen]

No, and we aren't NHL coaches.

I am not an expert.

But I can fundamentally compare one NHL team to another NHL team, and under Torts we were not heading in the same direction as -- any -- of the better teams in this league.

Fans are shortsighted, which they should be, but a few things gets lost in times like this.

1. We have a roster hand-picked for Torts right now, and players that has been drilled by Torts for the last 3.5 years.

Our blueline really really really struggles to move the puck up ice and out of their own end. And it starts when we go out to pressure D's because you have to think a step ahead in the game nowadays.

Its an extremely hard environment out there to makes moves in. Not much room at all to change the team through trades etc.

2. Facts are that we are without Nash, Callahan, Hagelin and Stepan missed the training camp.

Its quite possible that Torts is a better option than AV in this sitaution, if I wanted to get result with an expansion team Torts is high on my list. But, we in NY intends to be or become a contender with this "generation" and like I said, under Torts we opted to go in a completely diffrent direction compated to the other better teams in this league.

3. Giving up a first goal or two is and has never been a good idea in this league if you want to win a regular season game. What are the odds for the team that scores first to win? 70%?

Hank and or Biron has from time to time thrown pucks into his own net. Its only been 7 games.

I detest your point that this roster was built for Torts. If it was, then why bother having a GM? Let all coaches be GMs.

Sather put this team together. The idea that he did so because of who was coaching is ludicrous. Now, if Sather did do this he is even a bigger idiot than some of us believe.

I am not a fan of any particular coach and Torts behaved like an ass. However, under him, the team came to play and he installed a system that fit his personnel. That is the single most important talent a coach must possess.

Torts has won a Cup so he is not incompetent.

AV has inherited crappy offensive personnel. If he doesn't adjust his system to fit his personnel, he is toast. He is not a fool, so I imagine he will figure out that defensive play is the way to go until the personnel changes, if it does.

 

[chosen]

By the way, who cares if the players hate their coach? Screw em.

Herb Brooks was despised by his team and produced the greatest upset in ice hockey history.

I hate my boss but I still do my best at work. It is being professional and taking responsibility for yourself.

 

[NYROrtsFan]

I was behind the tortorella firing because of his stubbornness and unwillingness to adapt.

I loved his accountability but realized he was very overbearing.

There are no strong leaders on this team. Callahan is too meek. This doesn't look like a room that can self govern and this is why AV might be a disaster here. That and the fact that we stink.

So many people not willing to accept the fact that this team doesn't have enough talent.


Torts far and away got the most out of this team and it was stupid to fire him. Unfortunately Sather bought into what a bunch of people on this board also thought. IT was really comical to see some of the thoughts expressed by so many people here. And the thoughts still expressed.

Torts is going to win games wherever he goes... He did in Tampa, he did with the Rangers, and he will with Vancouver. He reached the pinnacle with Tampa, he clearly got the absolute most out of the Rangers, and time will only tell how far he gets with Vancouver. Whether he wins the cup is just based on whether he has good enough players. THat is the entire aspect to look at when trying to find a coach. 1. Get a guy who's capable of winning the championship and then work on getting the players to make it happen. It's that way in all sports. Torts got guys to play over their heads, so he's clearly not even an average coach, he's well above average.


Just a shame that Sather and some dopes around here were so incorrectly convinced that Torts was a problem. And this year and the next will clearly prove that out.

 

[Raspewtin]

to me its related, its connected. in other words, you cannot separate the two.

and for the record, this is NOT something new. this has been an issue for sometime.

our lack of intensity i see as a lack of results.

the hard work thing, thats a lack of execution.

effort. well to me, thats a lack of success.

and when you have no short term success like dominating a shift, scoring a goal, winning a period, or a game.... it becomes increasingly, exponentially more difficult to gather the emotion and energy needed to compete knowing you arent good enough. eventually, you look drained and lacking of effort.

im not buying into the less talented teams can win with effort and intensity stuff. maybe with torts and his "system" we could fake it and limp along. not with av. we are now exposed for what we are.

if you cannot score, you cannot win unless you have hank being hank and hes not. he lets in 2 softies and were toast.

if you cannot score, you cannot win. when your collective spirit is weakend, the results are what weve seen so far.

like i said. all connected.

I completely agree with the bolded. I remember SO many times that this team would score one goal and "defend" that lead for dear life. They didn't bring as much effort as they're being given credit for...

 

[Thesensation19*]

Dan Girardi, because Torts hockey is the only hockey he's capable of playing.

That's about it if you ask me.

He played for the London Knights. That is run by Dale Hunter... Though it does embody many similar traits to the Torts system of grinding, tough play, forecheck and backcheck. It also is a more creative offense. Dan Girardi did go undrafted out of there but he managed to be an All star in the NHL due to his defensive game.

Hes one of few Rangers on the team who is actually causing the breakout to be quicker but I agree its not his best start.

 

[Trxjw]

The biggest issue is that somewhere along the line there was an assumption made by the front office that this team had untapped scoring potential amongst some of it's players. So it went ahead and added (or retained) pieces over the summer like Pouliot and Zuccarello with the thought that these guys would somehow develop into solid secondary or tertiary scoring when given a longer leash. It's these kind of decisions, decisions that happen every summer with this team, that keep setting us back. The team chases names, rebound potential and reclamation projects, and has-beens all with seemingly no thought given to a) how they'll fit into the team dynamic, and b) how the coach is going to actually use them. What we're left with is a hodge-podge of players who seemingly create more holes in the lineup than they fill.

The team wasn't built for Torts. He molded it into that after he saw what he was given. What happened last year was the front office decided to add more offense at the expense of versatility and chemistry, and it blew up in their faces. Clearly they had a poor read on Nash given the fact that he's seemingly loathe to play the LW, which then pushed our leading goal scorer out of position and threw the whole lineup out of whack. To top it off, Tortorella managed to mishandle Gaborik and the team regressed.

However, it's those kinds of decisions that really exemplify Sather's incompetence as a GM. The misreads by the pro-scouting during his tenure have been absolutely abysmal. The constant shuffling of players in and out every summer with no real logic behind the moves. The terrible contracts. The short-sighted trades. This year he threw more **** at the wall and while the team is in shambles right now, he's probably thinking about how he's going to spend Richards' buyout money on the Sedin twins in July.

 

[Thesensation19*]

Dan G still probably has an issue with the system anyway. He prob does miss Torts. Heck, hes a stay at home defender and we all miss our defense. It use to be among the best. Now its THE WORST.

I believe many Rangers didnt have an issue with Torts. Asham, Richards are the only guys who had anything negative to say.

I think Torts was fired because
1) Management thought he was out of control, to strict and too narrow minded
2) Ownership was fed up with his bad publicity and his actions toward him at the Winter Classic.

Team was playing bad all year. Players were upset. But Asham and Richards are the only ones who were sorta mad, I believe many guys just didnt have enough good things to sya about the guy to have him stay after a brutal season and last series.
Most guys were probably like ehhh