How Many ECHL Teams are on Their Deathbeds?

[crimsonace]

If you split the difference and pull the "promoted cities" out of consideration, the decrease in the last ten years is noticeably less than the previous ten.

Which is to say there was overexpansion and resulting contraction.

Otherwise, if you examine previous leagues going a LOT further back, you'll find that there's NEVER been solid stability at this level of hockey as opposed to, say, baseball. When we tell you the last 10 years is as stable as any, damn right it's a relative term.

Look at the minor league hockey landscape from 1960-1970, or 1970-1980. The entire universe of minor pro hockey looks completely different from the start to the end of each decade ... the period from 1988-2002 (with the introduction of the ECHL, WCHL, Co/UHL, WPHL, new CHL at the front end, expansion into the south, contraction from many of those markets, and the demise of the IHL and the WPHL/CHL merger) saw probably the greatest amount of change in minor pro hockey. Since the overexpansion, league battles in some markets, battles between leagues for markets, things have been really relatively stable for the last decade or so. The minor pro hockey landscape in June 2020 will look a lot closer to that from 2010 ... than 2010 looked to 2000 ... or 1980 looked to 1970.

 

[Woo Hockey]

Brampton would be the next to go if there aren't changes done this off-season. Unlike Manchester they aren't in as big of a hole to dig themselves out of.

Have a feeling they're in for more than just a coaching change this summer.

 

[Growlers]

Brampton would be the next to go if there aren't changes done this off-season. Unlike Manchester they aren't in as big of a hole to dig themselves out of.

Have a feeling they're in for more than just a coaching change this summer.

What other changes do you feel are coming to Brampton?

 

[Atlantian]

I don't know if it was ever officially announced, but the Gladiators have a new two year deal with the Infinite Energy Center I believe

 

[GrGriffins]

Kalamazoo has VERY dedicated local ownership. The K-Wings have been owned by the same family since the beginning in 1974, which also owns Wings Event Center. They run the team as a community trust. They're always on the "endangered" list for fans who only look at attendance, but they've never been so.

The Parfet family owned the K-Wings from the start of the franchise until 1999 and then rebought the team in 2002 and owned them until his death in 2006. His wife took over but she sold the team and the arena to William D. Johnston & Greenleaf Hospitality Group in 2008.

William is the current owner of the K-Wings. He tried to build an arena in downtown Kalamazoo across from his hotel that he owns 2 seasons ago, but the city of Kalamazoo rejected his plans of a new 7000 arena in downtown Kalamazoo (which would have had Western Michigan University as their tenant as well). So he decided to put a lot of money at Wings Events Center the past 2 seasons and the Wings also signed a 2 year extension with Vancouver/Utica over the summer. So the K-Wings should be fine at least for the next 2 seasons.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

I just saw a video of last night's Cyclones vs. Brampton game in Brampton and there couldn't have been more than 800 people there-looked closer to 500. A fellow Cyclones fan went there last season (or the season before) and said that the listed attendance of 2500 would have been accurate if they got rid of the 2.

At the end of this season or next, the Beast are done. Subsidy or no subsidy.

 

[JMCx4]

... At the end of this season or next, the Beast are done. Subsidy or no subsidy.

And that's when the franchise moves to Trois-Rivières to occupy the new Colisée, right?

 

[Cyclones Rock]

And that's when the franchise moves to Trois-Rivières to occupy the new Colisée, right?

Maybe, maybe not. I know nothing about the ownership of the Beast and their inclination to move or anything about this Quebec possibility.

I just know that a team in the ECHL which draws 500 on a Saturday night is a failing proposition.

 

[JMCx4]

... I just know that a team in the ECHL which draws 500 on a Saturday night is a failing proposition.

The Beast were a failing proposition during their single season in the CHL, and in their first two seasons in the ECHL, and in their subsequent three ECHL seasons after team owner Greg Rosen extracted a $1.5M commitment from the Brampton city council. And yet, they're still hanging around.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

The Beast were a failing proposition during their single season in the CHL, and in their first two seasons in the ECHL, and in their subsequent three ECHL seasons after team owner Greg Rosen extracted a $1.5M commitment from the Brampton city council. And yet, they're still hanging around.

The subsidy ends this year. Do you think that the Beast will be in Brampton in 5 years? I'd put them at 50/50 to not be around for the 2020-21 season.

 

[JMCx4]

The subsidy ends this year. Do you think that the Beast will be in Brampton in 5 years? I'd put them at 50/50 to not be around for the 2020-21 season.

My point is they've been 50/50 (at best) to survive in Brampton for what is now 7 seasons. But I'd say that cat is livin' on its next-to-last life, at best.

 

[Cacciaguida]

when the brampton beast stopped putting their game footage up was when they died for me.

 

[JMCx4]

when the brampton beast stopped putting their game footage up was when they died for me.

That was probably when they lost their last unpaid intern.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

On the Beat Saturday night game I commented upon the crowd, I was told by someone who was there that there were 300 in attendance.

 

[210]

On the Beat Saturday night game I commented upon the crowd, I was told by someone who was there that there were 300 in attendance.

300 is pretty good at the arena when the game was in Toledo

 

[JMCx4]

300 is pretty good at the arena when the game was in Toledo

Yeah, but the Beast gave away 1200 boxes of popcorn & 900 beers to those die-hard fans, just to help convince the city they need another coupla $mil to maintain growth in their solid business model.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

300 is pretty good at the arena when the game was in Toledo

It was the Cyclones vs. Beast game a week ago.

 

[JMCx4]

It was the Cyclones vs. Beast game a week ago.

 

[Royalsflagrunner77]

Hey guys is there a website to see the teams attendance now the echl no longer posts it on theirs

 

[Atlantian]

Hey guys is there a website to see the teams attendance now the echl no longer posts it on theirs

ECHL 2019-20 team attendance at hockeydb.com

Here is the yearly attendance for this season. If you are looking for an individual game, you need to look on the individual stat sheet that the ECHL puts on its website.

 

[Atlantian]

ECHL 2019-20 team attendance at hockeydb.com

Here is the yearly attendance for this season. If you are looking for an individual game, you need to look on the individual stat sheet that the ECHL puts on its website.

According to this link, the official numbers (usually inflated) for six different teams: Greenville, Maine, Reading, Brampton, Wheeling, and Norfolk are below 3000 a night so far this season, with Wheeling below 2000. Normally I would say the sustainability number is between 3.5-4K per night. Other than Wheeling who isn’t going anywhere, how long can these other teams be sustainable? Is Portland gonna end up like Manchester?

 

[royals119]

According to this link, the official numbers (usually inflated) for six different teams: Greenville, Maine, Reading, Brampton, Wheeling, and Norfolk are below 3000 a night so far this season, with Wheeling below 2000. Normally I would say the sustainability number is between 3.5-4K per night. Other than Wheeling who isn’t going anywhere, how long can these other teams be sustainable? Is Portland gonna end up like Manchester?

I don't know about the others, but Reading was bought by the Berks County Convention Center Authority last year. That is the government entity that exists to collect tourism taxes and pay off the bonds that were issued to build the arena and renovate the theater. They brought in new management to operate the buildings and the team, and they are currently renovating another building they own which is adjacent to the arena. Since the authority keeps all the money from tickets, concessions, etc, and doesn't need to make a profit (beyond paying the bonds) and they do have income from hotel taxes, I think their number is lower than a team that pays rent and has an individual owner. I don't know how low it is, but they are making an effort to improve things, and they say it is getting better - although it hasn't shown up in the arena yet.

 

[Atlantian]

I don't know about the others, but Reading was bought by the Berks County Convention Center Authority last year. That is the government entity that exists to collect tourism taxes and pay off the bonds that were issued to build the arena and renovate the theater. They brought in new management to operate the buildings and the team, and they are currently renovating another building they own which is adjacent to the arena. Since the authority keeps all the money from tickets, concessions, etc, and doesn't need to make a profit (beyond paying the bonds) and they do have income from hotel taxes, I think their number is lower than a team that pays rent and has an individual owner. I don't know how low it is, but they are making an effort to improve things, and they say it is getting better - although it hasn't shown up in the arena yet.

If I am not mistaken, that is how the Nailers are operated as well.

 

[Royalsflagrunner77]

I don't know about the others, but Reading was bought by the Berks County Convention Center Authority last year. That is the government entity that exists to collect tourism taxes and pay off the bonds that were issued to build the arena and renovate the theater. They brought in new management to operate the buildings and the team, and they are currently renovating another building they own which is adjacent to the arena. Since the authority keeps all the money from tickets, concessions, etc, and doesn't need to make a profit (beyond paying the bonds) and they do have income from hotel taxes, I think their number is lower than a team that pays rent and has an individual owner. I don't know how low it is, but they are making an effort to improve things, and they say it is getting better - although it hasn't shown up in the arena yet.

Put it this way . Reading's attendance for the home opener last year was like 2500 this year it was closer to 4k . its showing increase over last year . On a personal note the customer service and team transparency has been way better then the past 5 years. Also the on ice product is way better .

 

[CHRDANHUTCH]

According to this link, the official numbers (usually inflated) for six different teams: Greenville, Maine, Reading, Brampton, Wheeling, and Norfolk are below 3000 a night so far this season, with Wheeling below 2000. Normally I would say the sustainability number is between 3.5-4K per night. Other than Wheeling who isn’t going anywhere, how long can these other teams be sustainable? Is Portland gonna end up like Manchester?

no, Atlantian....Spectra owns the franchise, as well as the arena that it plays in.... question becomes though will Hartford be the direct affiliate since Spectra runs their business ops, as long as the XL isn't transferred or the Rangers decide to look elsewhere since they own the franchise, something else would have to change operationally at the AHL Level(besides that, Drury & Briere played together and that's how tight the relationship is personally....remember, CS sold the original franchise in 1982-83, to the Devils (now Stockton) and then Snider tried to duplicate that in the final years of the Spectrum with the Phantoms, before selling them to other interests, and the eventual landing in Allentown, as Lehigh Valley, That is, I believe one, if not the main reason why they're back here with the ECHL team in Portland.

Portland's been through that at least TWICE....but the blame was on the trustee board the 1st time, the same change that eventually ended Manchester's franchise the 2nd time, and yes, the 3500 # was invoked when Ron Cain became CEO.

Manchester's issues were simply timing, an ownership group that everyone thought was committed once they convinced AEG to sell the franchise, and the fanbase revolt over the direction of the franchise (sometimes going from corporate ownership to local/community based ownership takes time to implement it....