How Long Did It Take Gretzky to be Regarded as the GOAT?

[Bombshell11]

The only problem is that Lemieux never eclipsed him in anything AND he was injured.

He didn't have the most points in a season
He didn't have the highest ppg in a season
He didn't score the most goals in a season
He didn't have the highest gpg in a season
He won half the cups

In terms of talent one could argue he was equal to Gretzky which most people agree with, but he can't be the GOAT due to his results and the fact he never even eclipsed Wayne in anything to make an argument he's better. He literally has no argument.

But why would you do that? People talk about Lemieux all the time and what if....he would have broken all of Gretzky's records, etc. A lot of that has to do with Gretzky saying those things, but that's just what Gretzky does....he seems to rank about 20 guys better than himself. Also, there was a time when Gretzky's career PPG stat fell below 2ppg and Mario was ever so slightly above that and that got people to talk as well. The problem is that Mario simply didn't play long enough or enough into his older years to see his PPG dip that much....as he played a bit later on, it came down....but he still never played enough for it to be impacted too much.

People can extrapolate to show if he had played the same number of games as Gretzky, but you'll still come short of Gretzky's 2,857pts and, as noted, completely unfair to assume some continues to score at that high of a clip over another 500+ games.

Mario had 690 goals and 1,723pts over 915 games. Reality is, after Gretzky's 915th game, he had 715 goals and 2,119pts.

Supporting cast were very different.
Lemieux would generate his own offense. Gretzky had a strong team around him. Coffey, Kurri just to name these 2.
Who did Mario play with?
The difference between these players is how they produced and Lemieux would dominate by himself with little help.
Not saying Gretzky is bad by all means but Lemieux was the best player on the ice by a mile at any given time.

Same thing for Jagr, the guy in his prime would just walk in the O-Zone and score goals like its nothing in an era that teams played the trap and Lemieux was much better than him.

 

[Hockey4Lyfe]

I never had the chance to watch any of these guys live. But watching extensive highlights, the only one I saw truly separate themselves from their piers were Mario, Howe and Orr. So not truly surprising that those 4 are considered the Mt. Rushmore of hockey.

Mario was there in terms of pure hockey ability but can't really compete due to injuries and not being able to mount much of an argument to all of the records Gretsky has.

 

[LuckyDay]

1979-80 season he was already considered to be better than Howe. Orr, Hull, and Richard weren't even in the discussion.
He tied Dionne his rookie year for the scoring lead at 51 goals and 137 points as an 18 year old. He was so good he was offered a contract in the WHA at 16 but took it at 17 then was sold by Indianapolis he was that valuable. Its all anyone in Canadian sports talked about until Mario Lemieux. All debates centered around Gretzky and he only went up from there. He ended debates by blowing away Esposito's 72 goal record by scoring 92. He scored 50 goals in the 39 games that year. When he started winning cups only Howe's scoring record was still up for debate. His sale to the Los Angeles King's for $15 million was key to Bruce McNall's vision and was instrumental in the growth of hockey and opening new markets, starting with California.

 

[Toby91ca]

Supporting cast were very different.
Lemieux would generate his own offense. Gretzky had a strong team around him. Coffey, Kurri just to name these 2.
Who did Mario play with?
The difference between these players is how they produced and Lemieux would dominate by himself with little help.
Not saying Gretzky is bad by all means but Lemieux was the best player on the ice by a mile at any given time.

Same thing for Jagr, the guy in his prime would just walk in the O-Zone and score goals like its nothing in an era that teams played the trap and Lemieux was much better than him.

Mario played with lots of good players too (Jagr, Coffey, Stevens, Recchi for a few years). Either way though, supporting cast is all subjective. Someone can just as easily suggest looking at all those stars from the Oilers, maybe Gretzky made them stars?

But here's what I do know in terms of actual stats...say what you will about suggesting Gretzky's teammates were so much better, in his career with the Oilers, he led the team in scoring each year and won by the following margins:

1980 - 43pts (rookie)
1981 - 89pts
1982 - 107pts
1983 - 90pts
1984 - 79pts (he only played 74 games)
1985 - 73pts
1986 - 77pts
1987 - 75pts
1988 - 38pts (he only played 64 games)

Mario had domination with his team, but not like that:

1985 - 28pts (rookie)
1986 - 58pts
1987 - 36pts (he only played 63 games but #2 only played 64)
1988 - 89pts (only played 77 games, but #2 played 70)
1989 - 84pts (only played 76 games, but #2 played 68)
1990 - 20pts (only played 59 games ~ 63pts with extrapolating)
1991 - only played 26 games
1992 - 8pts (only played 64 games ~ 40pts with extrapolating)
1993 - 49pts (only played 60 games ~90pts with extrapolating)
1994 - only played 22 games
1996 - 12pts (only played 70 games ~39pts with extrapolating
1997 - 27pts (only played 76 games, but #2 played 63)

 

[Nerowoy nora tolad]

I can't imagine that it took long. He had 92 goals and a 200 point season by his 3rd year and the nickname "The Great One" from the time he was a child. I'm sure the only holdouts left by the end of his 4th year were the "hE HaZnT wUn An CuP!" edgelords who refused to distinguish the fact his team lost to a dynasty.

My man probably wins 7 or 8 titles like a 1960's Celtic if he's not traded to Los Angeles

If people wanted to hold off on declaring him the GOAT in the 80s it wasn't that silly, discussing the differences between say Orr and Howe is more a test of personal preference and perspective.

The point to me where it became indisputable was the 93 playoff run where he came back from a might-never-play-sports-again sort of injury to drag an AHL club coached by Barry Melrose and starting Kelly Hrudey having a midlife crisis, all the way to within spitting distance of winning the cup.

For all of their great aspects, I don't think any of Orr/Howe/Lemieux have seasons quite that insane in terms of difficulty level/results October-to-june

 

[Bombshell11]

Mario played with lots of good players too (Jagr, Coffey, Stevens, Recchi for a few years). Either way though, supporting cast is all subjective. Someone can just as easily suggest looking at all those stars from the Oilers, maybe Gretzky made them stars?

But here's what I do know in terms of actual stats...say what you will about suggesting Gretzky's teammates were so much better, in his career with the Oilers, he led the team in scoring each year and won by the following margins:

1980 - 43pts (rookie)
1981 - 89pts
1982 - 107pts
1983 - 90pts
1984 - 79pts (he only played 74 games)
1985 - 73pts
1986 - 77pts
1987 - 75pts
1988 - 38pts (he only played 64 games)

Mario had domination with his team, but not like that:

1985 - 28pts (rookie)
1986 - 58pts
1987 - 36pts (he only played 63 games but #2 only played 64)
1988 - 89pts (only played 77 games, but #2 played 70)
1989 - 84pts (only played 76 games, but #2 played 68)
1990 - 20pts (only played 59 games ~ 63pts with extrapolating)
1991 - only played 26 games
1992 - 8pts (only played 64 games ~ 40pts with extrapolating)
1993 - 49pts (only played 60 games ~90pts with extrapolating)
1994 - only played 22 games
1996 - 12pts (only played 70 games ~39pts with extrapolating
1997 - 27pts (only played 76 games, but #2 played 63)

Well there's one stat that doesn't lie and its +/-... since its heavely affected by the whole group of 5 on the ice, look at Gretzky's +/- with Edmonton and after he left. His production dropped (from Edm) and his +/-.

He was never in the minus with Edmonton and his lowest was +14 in his rookie year. He got +100 when he scored 212 pts and Lemieux was +41 in his 199 year. Gretzky's team in EDM was better at holding on the puck in the offensive zone. When he went to LA, his +/- dropped massively.

So there's no comparison

 

[Video Nasty]

Is that true? So 5 years into his career, he was already considered that? Seems pretty wild if so.

That’s why he’s the Great One.

And if someone else ever shows up who is better, we’ll know it right away.

 

[devo09]

After the 87 Canada Cup

 

[paulmm3]

I'm 38 and grew up with (college) hockey season tickets and always loved the NHL. I played a full 82 game season of NHL 98 on Playstation. Earliest I remember hockey is maybe '95 and it's always been Gretzky that I can remember

 

[EdmFlyersfan]

1986-87

 

[Bradely]

Mario played with lots of good players too (Jagr, Coffey, Stevens, Recchi for a few years). Either way though, supporting cast is all subjective. Someone can just as easily suggest looking at all those stars from the Oilers, maybe Gretzky made them stars?

But here's what I do know in terms of actual stats...say what you will about suggesting Gretzky's teammates were so much better, in his career with the Oilers, he led the team in scoring each year and won by the following margins:

1980 - 43pts (rookie)
1981 - 89pts
1982 - 107pts
1983 - 90pts
1984 - 79pts (he only played 74 games)
1985 - 73pts
1986 - 77pts
1987 - 75pts
1988 - 38pts (he only played 64 games)

Mario had domination with his team, but not like that:

1985 - 28pts (rookie)
1986 - 58pts
1987 - 36pts (he only played 63 games but #2 only played 64)
1988 - 89pts (only played 77 games, but #2 played 70)
1989 - 84pts (only played 76 games, but #2 played 68)
1990 - 20pts (only played 59 games ~ 63pts with extrapolating)
1991 - only played 26 games
1992 - 8pts (only played 64 games ~ 40pts with extrapolating)
1993 - 49pts (only played 60 games ~90pts with extrapolating)
1994 - only played 22 games
1996 - 12pts (only played 70 games ~39pts with extrapolating
1997 - 27pts (only played 76 games, but #2 played 63)

Absolutely no comparison between Lemieux era Pittsburgh roster and 99 era Oilers roster. Element had one of maybe the 3 best NHL hockey team ever.
Oilers still manage on SC win after 99 departure.

That said, 99 and 66 are with Boston number 4 the best hockey players I've seen.

 

[Leafs87]

I can't imagine that it took long. He had 92 goals and a 200 point season by his 3rd year and the nickname "The Great One" from the time he was a child. I'm sure the only holdouts left by the end of his 4th year were the "hE HaZnT wUn An CuP!" edgelords who refused to distinguish the fact his team lost to a dynasty.

My man probably wins 7 or 8 titles like a 1960's Celtic if he's not traded to Los Angeles

The no cup argument was legit during that time. Maybe not that early on. But the winning team was usually very evident early on. Much less Cinderella runs and usually you’d have 1 team head and shoulder better who usually won when they were expected to. Something that nowadays isn’t as common.

 

[SirJW]

He's been called the Great One since he was a child prodigy.

 

[Terry Yake]

there are old usenet threads from the 80s you can search and see what people were saying in regards to the "GOAT" discussion back then

i recall reading some from the mid 80s a while back where quite a few people still regarded howe as the GOAT

 

[HeadLiceHatty]

Hate that I wasn’t alive to really see the greatness of Gretzky and I feel like all the videos I’ve ever seen online don’t do justice. If any of you old heads have a video or a suggestion of stuff some of us younger crowds could watch to enjoy how great he really was, dm or post, thanks.

 

[Luigi Habs]

No one said GOAT until the late 90s/early 2000s

Well I was there in early 90s and he was definitely considered the goat. However there were big debates whether Mario Lemieux would surpass him.