How is John Tavares a minus player on the Islanders?

[NHL Fanatik*]

plus/minus means something, you can't ignore it.

Doesn't affect how I look at Tavares by much, but it means something.

 

[A Pointed Stick]

Geez, where to begin....

1) His line usually lacks defensive acumen.
2) He himself leaves much to be desired defensively.
3) When he is on, and hot, his beast mode outweighs the above issues.
4) When he is not on, more goals go in against us than go in for us while he is on the ice.

One major reason for #4 is because JT will stay out there 2 minutes if you let him. For those of you who play or played, you know how that works itself out on the NHL level. Exhaustion = the puck in the back of your net.

We also have a coach who seems incapable of reigning in his first line's silly shift lengths.

And anyone questioning the accuracy of his +/- numbers... give it up. We watch him game in and game out. His +/- reflects what you expect it to reflect. Maybe for other players it is a lie.... not for John, sadly, and I say that as a huge fan of the guy. I just don't paint my eyeballs over with fan-bias.

Then there is his back checking tenacity. It is below average, and I am being nice about it.

 

[seafoam]

I don't see anyone claiming Tavares is above average defensively.

I think at this point it's well known that he is, at best, average defensively.

Is it an issue that will prevent the Islanders from reaching the Stanley Cup finals one day?

Personally I don't think so. That's probably why us Islanders fans simply don't care.

 

[charlie1]

Listen to these guys:

Geez, where to begin....

1) His line usually lacks defensive acumen.
2) He himself leaves much to be desired defensively.
3) When he is on, and hot, his beast mode outweighs the above issues.
4) When he is not on, more goals go in against us than go in for us while he is on the ice.

One major reason for #4 is because JT will stay out there 2 minutes if you let him. For those of you who play or played, you know how that works itself out on the NHL level. Exhaustion = the puck in the back of your net.

We also have a coach who seems incapable of reigning in his first line's silly shift lengths.

And anyone questioning the accuracy of his +/- numbers... give it up. We watch him game in and game out. His +/- reflects what you expect it to reflect. Maybe for other players it is a lie.... not for John, sadly, and I say that as a huge fan of the guy. I just don't paint my eyeballs over with fan-bias.

Then there is his back checking tenacity. It is below average, and I am being nice about it.

He's been better since Bailey since joined his line(I think he's like a +4 since then), but that's never going to be a strong point of that line. He's not as bad as the numbers show, but as another poster said, he tends to extend his shifts and get caught in the defensive zone. Hopefully he addresses it, but as long as we're winning - it's whatever...

A combination of a few things probably. His shifts are about 10-15 seconds too long, sometimes he tries to make the fancy play in the NZ or along the blueline (like those behind the back/no look passes) that lead to odd man rushes when he should just make the simple play and dump it in, and he's average defensively.

And keep in mind he is a massive PLUS player if you take into account PP goals. He is also top-10 in penalty differential. He also sees the opposition's top shutdown lines.

So you take the good with the bad, and there's a lot more good than bad.

 

[bottomofthefoodchain]

Shades of Ovechkin. Difference is he isn't scoring as much. And he's Canadian.

 

[Spawn]

Shades of Ovechkin. Difference is he isn't scoring as much. And he's Canadian.

Not really shades of Ovechkin. Ovechkin was only a minus player once in his first 6 seasons, and only 3 times in a 10 year career. Ovechkin was a vastly superior player to Tavares his first 6 years in the league. Not that that means much. Ovechkin was arguably the best player in the world during that stretch. Only Crosby was able to make an argument against him.

 

[KnoccOut]

Wow, I didn't even notice. That's pretty impressive for a guy getting 66.6% offensive zone starts on a team that is +25 overall. How bad do you have to be defensively?

It's a good thing he's Canadian or people might jump on him like they did Ovechkin. Even worse, he's a center.

yup thats usually how it works

 

[kmart]

look at this hostile bure fan...hes a canadian ! leave him alone.

 

[Classicnamesup]

This thread is great. You have people saying +/- means nothing and then you have actual, knowledgeable people who watch the games who say stuff like this

Geez, where to begin....

1) His line usually lacks defensive acumen.
2) He himself leaves much to be desired defensively.
3) When he is on, and hot, his beast mode outweighs the above issues.
4) When he is not on, more goals go in against us than go in for us while he is on the ice.

One major reason for #4 is because JT will stay out there 2 minutes if you let him. For those of you who play or played, you know how that works itself out on the NHL level. Exhaustion = the puck in the back of your net.

We also have a coach who seems incapable of reigning in his first line's silly shift lengths.

And anyone questioning the accuracy of his +/- numbers... give it up. We watch him game in and game out. His +/- reflects what you expect it to reflect. Maybe for other players it is a lie.... not for John, sadly, and I say that as a huge fan of the guy. I just don't paint my eyeballs over with fan-bias.

Then there is his back checking tenacity. It is below average, and I am being nice about it.

+/- explained. I doubt the hockey knowledge of people who discard +/-.

 

[DearDiary]

Tavares is a very good hockey player and works his tail off, offensively and defensively.

Tavares is below average at defense. I'd probably only put Seguin ahead of him for worst #1 center defensively

 

[RMimagery]

Let's look at who Tavares has played with, shall we.

He started his career with Moulson, very one dimensional and terrible/useless in his own zone and P.A. Parenteau. A fine player but not a first liner. Next came Brad Boyes (!) replacing Parenteau and only saying that Boyes is not a first liner would be kind. John was getting stronger and faster and took it upon himself to score more and got a Hart nomination with 28 goals in 48 games.

The only time he had two wingers who were first line players (Vanek and Okposo - Okposo arrived as a force during the Pens series in 2013) was for a few months last season, and they were the best line in hockey in that time. Vanek doesn't really play D and the Isles were wise not to pay him what he got from MIN. It was nice to watch them on offense for that time though.

Last year, he lit up the league and was second in scoring after 59 games then gets hurt at the Olympics. Injuries like his takes almost a year to fully heal from, as seen by Isles fans this year, he's been a different player since mid december.

This season, I don't know how Conacher was given a shot as the top LW for 10 games. Major fail. 1 goal, no assists but JT and Okposo were getting it done by themselves and the Isles were winning. Conacher, not even worthy of fourth line duties has been benched since.

Kulemin was tried there after, but is not a first liner either and it wasn't ideal. Now Bailey is on JT's left and a solid 2nd or 3rd liner, shouldn't be there. But this is a deep team that is winning despite this.

With Okposo out for 5-7 weeks, Grabovski was put there against the Rangers (and scored) but we can all agree - not a first liner.

Before this season, The Isles has not had secondary scoring to say the least, and the opposition was able to key on John's line and try to shut them down. Will be different going forward with this team's depth and with players like Dal Colle coming up soon, and Strome, Nelson and Lee's evolution, John should have solid wingers for years.

He's now shaking off the injury and has been one of the hottest players in the league over the last month. Watch him for the rest of this season. He's one point shy of ppg but has been scoring at almost 1.5 ppg the last few weeks so that should take care of itself.

Really not concerned at all. Very exciting to see what John and his team will do over the next few seasons. I'll bet he'll be a plus player too.

 

[Rehabguy]

Geez, where to begin....

1) His line usually lacks defensive acumen.
2) He himself leaves much to be desired defensively.
3) When he is on, and hot, his beast mode outweighs the above issues.
4) When he is not on, more goals go in against us than go in for us while he is on the ice.

One major reason for #4 is because JT will stay out there 2 minutes if you let him. For those of you who play or played, you know how that works itself out on the NHL level. Exhaustion = the puck in the back of your net.

We also have a coach who seems incapable of reigning in his first line's silly shift lengths.

And anyone questioning the accuracy of his +/- numbers... give it up. We watch him game in and game out. His +/- reflects what you expect it to reflect. Maybe for other players it is a lie.... not for John, sadly, and I say that as a huge fan of the guy. I just don't paint my eyeballs over with fan-bias.

Then there is his back checking tenacity. It is below average, and I am being nice about it.

Good points.

Asking John Tavares to concentrate on his defense is like asking a thoroughbred race horse to pull a plow. He can do it, but it will look damned ugly.

Just as a race horse purpose is to win races, JT is on the ice to score goals that decide hockey games. He's there to be the elite gamebreaker that he is, just like a Stamkos or Ovechkin.

You have to put the +/- in the proper context. If the negative is causing the Islanders games- I would be concerned. If the negative is because he is doing what he is told to do- hovering around the net like a shark on a feeding frenzy and scoring goals that decide hockey games. Who cares?

Whenever opposing teams score against the Islander's top line the game is usually already well out of reach- so it can pull his +/- down. They left the racehorse on the field to pull the plow. You want a top line player to prevent goals when the game is already lost you bring out a plow horse (Giroux? ) but it's not going to win you any games.

No, when the game is on the line I want my top stallion out there. I want someone out there who is going to win games. JT's was brought in to provide offense not worry about defense. He's golden!

 

[Raspewtin]

Because he isn't good defensively.

 

[alexny]

Tavares is below average at defense. I'd probably only put Seguin ahead of him for worst #1 center defensively

I'll have to check some stats on this when I can.

Seguin looks stronger defensively than Tavares to me.

 

[Brooklanders*]

+/- is such a subjective stat. Its really the most unless stat ever invented. It doesn't tell anything about the individual player. JT is a decent player on defense. I'd say he's actually slightly above average.

 

[Rehabguy]

Because he isn't good defensively.

Bingo!

And ask any Islander fan if they really care.

 

[PWJunior]

Tavares is below average at defense. I'd probably only put Seguin ahead of him for worst #1 center defensively

I find it interesting that Team Canada was adamant about keeping Tavares in the middle and he displayed a very strong defensive game in the games that he played in Sochi. He's smart enough and has the ability to be a plus defensive player, it was on display at the Olympics as he was asked to be the #4C with very limited ice time. He was going balls out every shift and was looking very good.

With the Isles, he's asked to be the #1C and to score. Very different role and responsibility. He's an offensive force and deployed that way, big freaking whoop that he's a -1 on the season.

 

[member 151739]

Bad luck.

 

[Rehabguy]

I find it interesting that Team Canada was adamant about keeping Tavares in the middle and he displayed a very strong defensive game in the games that he played in Sochi. He's smart enough and has the ability to be a plus defensive player, it was on display at the Olympics as he was asked to be the #4C with very limited ice time. He was going balls out every shift and was looking very good.

With the Isles, he's asked to be the #1C and to score. Very different role and responsibility. He's an offensive force and deployed that way, big freaking whoop that he's a -1 on the season.

Right and 1 point below Stamkos. Birds of a feather I guess. But I'd take either of them.

 

[stan the caddy]

His line aint that good at even strength.

 

[Skinnyjimmy08]

who cares... Let him be minuses and put up decent points... Strome has emerged as their best all around player already!!

Strome 3rd in team scoring... best +- on team... only 5 of his points are on PP... has most even strength points on team... and only averaging just over 14 mins a game(almost same amount as the 4th liners).. team is clicking, let Tavares suck defensively and let Strome take care of the rest hahah.. and also gets the 6th last average shifts per game on NYI... play him more for pete sakes

 

[19NYSports91]

Meh, same thing with Stamkos, teams are at the top of the standings and they've yet to really put it together. I've read that he's been prone to bad turnovers and long shifts, looks like they've been hanging out too much in the off season.

Pretty spot on for the beginning of the year. He was playing horrible and I hated his game in the beginning of the year. For at least the last month, he's turned it around and has been playing awesome.

I disagree with people saying he's awful or not good defensively.

 

[DearDiary]

I find it interesting that Team Canada was adamant about keeping Tavares in the middle and he displayed a very strong defensive game in the games that he played in Sochi. He's smart enough and has the ability to be a plus defensive player, it was on display at the Olympics as he was asked to be the #4C with very limited ice time. He was going balls out every shift and was looking very good.

With the Isles, he's asked to be the #1C and to score. Very different role and responsibility. He's an offensive force and deployed that way, big freaking whoop that he's a -1 on the season.

A #1 Center is asked to score? So pretty much like every top center. If Tavares can only manage ppg while focusing only on offense, what does that tell you?

I'm sure Tavares can be excellent defensively if told to play that way, but what matters if he can play at a high level offensively while doing it. Looking at what he's done over his career, he can't do both, only one.

 

[Nolanitis]

The lows people go every week to put down Tavares. His game is back, he will be in top 5 of scoring within 2-4 weeks, and will be a plus player too.

Every week, someone starts an anti-Tavares thread....it is getting really old

 

[PWJunior]

Right and 1 point below Stamkos. Birds of a feather I guess. But I'd take either of them.

If Tavares and Stamkos were asked to play a 2-way game on lower lines, then I'm confident that they'd be stronger defensively because that's where their energy goes to. Tavares did it in the Olympics, he was skating hard and his #1 focus was taking care of his own zone.

They are asked to be the alpha dogs as the #1C so the lower lines can feast on the weaker defensive players on the other team. Considering both TB and the Isles are among the deepest teams up front, I would say it's working for them... look at the standings.