How In The World Is Tim Thomas Not In The HHOF?

[Reverend Mayhem]

Did Tim Thomas pioneer not going to the WH for political reasons? Everyone does it nowadays but it was shocking at the time. Pretty much everyone said he was being a big baby and that the visit was apolitical .

I actually supported Timmy even though I strongly disagreed with his actions. Got a lot of flak for it, too.

 

[BruinsFan37]

Goalie version of Theo Fleury basically. You piss off/weird out people voting on it, you're not going to get a lot of votes. Plus Thomases career was a bit short on quality years. Minus one of those he'd probably at least have a chance of geting in. (i..e if he had a longer career with peak stats they might overlook the crazy things he did, or if he didn't go crazy they might be ok with the shorter career span)

 

[Martin Skoula]

I don’t think it was the politics or anything, he put up his signature season at the absolute peak of goalie stats before rule changes nerfed goalies. If you teleport 2010/11 Niemi or Reimer’s stats to this year, they’d be Vezina finalists. There was 20 guys that put up Vezina calibre numbers today that year.

 

[Romang67]

I don’t think it was the politics or anything, he put up his signature season at the absolute peak of goalie stats before rule changes nerfed goalies. If you teleport 2010/11 Niemi or Reimer’s stats to this year, they’d be Vezina finalists. There was 20 guys that put up Vezina calibre numbers today that year.

Eh, his stats were still exceptional compared to his peers. His two best seasons were 3.5 and 3.9 standard deviations away from the mean. For reference, when Price won the Vezina and Hart in 2015, his save percentage were 3 standard deviations above the mean.

The issue is that he didn't have a crazy high peak and was an average goaltender in the NHL apart from that. It's that he had a crazy high peak, and wasn't an NHL goaltender apart from that. Thomas's peak was in 2008-2011. That peak includes a season where he lost his starting job to Rask, and at least by public advanced goalie stat models, had a pretty damn bad season. As in, among the worst in the league.

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

I don’t think it was the politics or anything, he put up his signature season at the absolute peak of goalie stats before rule changes nerfed goalies. If you teleport 2010/11 Niemi or Reimer’s stats to this year, they’d be Vezina finalists. There was 20 guys that put up Vezina calibre numbers today that year.

The highest SV% since 1971 (single season) belongs to....drumroll...

Brian Elliott.

Yes, just like we all expected. STL played lights out defensive hockey that season. Only team better than them in that regard beat them in 4 games.

Thomas didn't have that same level of help. That 2010-11 season was something truly special for him.

 

[Jumptheshark]

Probably has to do with a relatively short career and never really being a workhorse of a starter. The Hall is also weird about letting in goalies. I’m sure he gets in eventually.

He had a long career just a short one in the NHL.

When talking about awards won--I always look at how many they won in one season. Thomas won the Smythe and Vezina in the same season 10/11 and he other Vezina was in 08/09

and then you have the save % thing. He only played in about 41 playoff games and he only got past the 2nd round once--they year he went to the cup final and then when you look at his games started? He was only the clear starter for 6 years. So when someone uses the save % thing and add he only got past the 2nd round once? For me that lands in the small sample size and to put it in better perspective why I play down the save %? Skinner of edmonton has only made the playoffs twice and he has already played 33 games in the playoffs and if the oilers make the second round this year he could pass Thomas games played quickly.


For the short career argument some people may bring up Ken Dryden but he had 6 cup wins, 1 smyth, 1 calder but 5 Vesina's. SO you could say Dryden had 6 good years vs Thomas 2.

You then can looks at Tom Barrasso and how long it took him to get in the hall fame. He was the calder, Vezina and 2 cups

 

[WATTAGE4451]

The end of his career and how it unfolded really hurt his chances, I think.

When he played politics and refused to go to the White House with his teammates. He was still good for 1 more year after when Bos lost in the 1st round to WSH.

But after that he refused to play on the last year of his contract and was suspended, got traded to the Islanders and didn't report, remain suspended. He was not an NHL Starter after that with DAL/FLA and was pretty much done.

If he had just retired after 2011/2012, could be a different story.

Luongo arguably should have won a vezina and had several top 3 and top 4 finishes and many years with votes. Also thomas is hurt by the fact he had a short career and wa snever a workhorse goalie even in the years that he played, starting 60 games only once in his career while luo go had loads of 60 + years and even some 70 plus years.

Heck, luongo started 60 games or more in as many seasons as the total number of seasons thomas played in his career.

As a result, luongo ended up with 489 career wins vs thomas's 214 just to demonstarte how little thomas played

Lack of cumulative and longevity since thomas started so late is what hurt his hof chances but his peak was arguably as good as anyone- even hasek.

Id say he deserves to be in despite the short career just cuz his peak was arguably best in game or 2nd best at least.

 

[Pablo El Perro]

His career was too short and he's too controversial a figure.

How isn't Mogilny in? It's an injustice to live in a world where Kevin Lowe makes it in before Mogs.

Yeah, for career, Mogilny is the biggest snub. I still think Thomas can get in.

 

[Martin Skoula]

Eh, his stats were still exceptional compared to his peers. His two best seasons were 3.5 and 3.9 standard deviations away from the mean. For reference, when Price won the Vezina and Hart in 2015, his save percentage were 3 standard deviations above the mean.

The issue is that he didn't have a crazy high peak and was an average goaltender in the NHL apart from that. It's that he had a crazy high peak, and wasn't an NHL goaltender apart from that. Thomas's peak was in 2008-2011. That peak includes a season where he lost his starting job to Rask, and at least by public advanced goalie stat models, had a pretty damn bad season. As in, among the worst in the league.

Don’t get me wrong he was obviously a level above other goalies that year but it’s hard to put his stats in context or take his “highest save % ever” record seriously in that environment. If he repeated that standard deviation another time or two in a more normal goalie year I think he’s an easy slam dunk, but as it stands he’s like the Cheechoo of goalies in terms of a late bloomer at the right place in the right time on the right team during an abnormal rule environment that was never repeated consistently. Playing behind prime Chara and prime Bergeron at the absolute peak of goalie performance hurts him even if it’s not necessarily fair to him, not like he chose to be a starter specifically in that situation.

 

[WATTAGE4451]

Don’t get me wrong he was obviously a level above other goalies that year but it’s hard to put his stats in context or take his “highest save % ever” record seriously in that environment. If he repeated that standard deviation another time or two in a more normal goalie year I think he’s an easy slam dunk, but as it stands he’s like the Cheechoo of goalies in terms of a late bloomer at the right place in the right time on the right team during an abnormal rule environment that was never repeated consistently. Playing behind prime Chara and prime Bergeron at the absolute peak of goalie performance hurts him even if it’s not necessarily fair to him, not like he chose to be a starter specifically in that situation.

Also doesnt help that in the short career he played, he basically just averaged 50 games a year in his 8(or technically 9 year) career with only 1 year reaching 60.

Not only did luongo play almost twice as many years, Luongo had 9 seasons where he started over 60 games compared to thomas 1 and only playing 9 seasons.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

The highest SV% since 1971 (single season) belongs to....drumroll...

Brian Elliott.

Yes, just like we all expected. STL played lights out defensive hockey that season. Only team better than them in that regard beat them in 4 games.

Thomas didn't have that same level of help. That 2010-11 season was something truly special for him.

And the Bruins under Julien were somehow not good defensively?

 

[Reverend Mayhem]

And the Bruins under Julien were somehow not good defensively?

Not what I said, but do you have some thoughts to add perhaps?

 

[LEAFANFORLIFE23]

Because he was a known dick.

That shouldn't have ANYTHING to do with it but in hockey it does.

 

[The Pale King]

His 2011 playoff run is also the second-best playoff run by a goaltender I've ever personally witnessed. In case you're wondering what #1 is, it's Jean-Sébastien Giguère in 2003.

Quick was much, much better the following season for Los Angeles. How many times did the Kings need to score 4-5+ to compensate for multiple weak goals allowed by Quick*? Thomas made his teams play extra games in more than one round with his inconsistency in 2011.

(*The answer is zero times).

 

[NVious]

Don’t get me wrong he was obviously a level above other goalies that year but it’s hard to put his stats in context or take his “highest save % ever” record seriously in that environment. If he repeated that standard deviation another time or two in a more normal goalie year I think he’s an easy slam dunk, but as it stands he’s like the Cheechoo of goalies in terms of a late bloomer at the right place in the right time on the right team during an abnormal rule environment that was never repeated consistently. Playing behind prime Chara and prime Bergeron at the absolute peak of goalie performance hurts him even if it’s not necessarily fair to him, not like he chose to be a starter specifically in that situation.

He had 2 seasons over 920 and 2 seasons over 930, that's more than enough repetition, not even close to Cheechoo's 28/56/38 with no playoff success. His playoff save percentage stats are a reflection of his God tier run and his excellent play in general. Bergeron and Chara are also a part of some monumental collapses in their own right, so definitely not some Hockey Gods either.

Longevity deserves respect, but peak coupled with playoff peak is the most important. Is anybody really gonna take Rogie Vachon or Vernon over him because they cranked out 10 more years of 20 win seasons? It's irrelevant

 

[voyageur]

The highest SV% since 1971 (single season) belongs to....drumroll...

Brian Elliott.

Yes, just like we all expected. STL played lights out defensive hockey that season. Only team better than them in that regard beat them in 4 games.

Thomas didn't have that same level of help. That 2010-11 season was something truly special for him.

.692 sv % against Max Pacioretty that year.

 

[Martin Skoula]

He had 2 seasons over 920 and 2 seasons over 930, that's more than enough repetition, not even close to Cheechoo's 28/56/38 with no playoff success. His playoff save percentage stats are a reflection of his God tier run and his excellent play in general. Bergeron and Chara are also a part of some monumental collapses in their own right, so definitely not some Hockey Gods either.

Longevity deserves respect, but peak coupled with playoff peak is the most important. Is anybody really gonna take Rogie Vachon or Vernon over him because they cranked out 10 more years of 20 win seasons? It's irrelevant

His 2 above .920 he was 5th and 12th behind guys like Jimmy Howard and Brian Elliot. The two above .930 were the only relevant HOF seasons.

 

[Summer Rose]

Quick was much, much better the following season for Los Angeles. How many times did the Kings need to score 4-5+ to compensate for multiple weak goals allowed by Quick*? Thomas made his teams play extra games in more than one round with his inconsistency in 2011.

(*The answer is zero times).

Weird. I guess it’s subjective ranking what you consider an amazing playoff performance by a goalie. While I recognized what Quick was doing at the time, I still ended up holding Thomas in 2011 and Giguère in 2003 in higher regard than Quick in 2012. If I’m going to go down the path of ranking all-time goalie performances in the playoffs I’ve personally witnessed, I’d easily put Quick’s 2012 run at #3, I suppose.

Or maybe I’m just slightly biased against him because his team eliminated my Coyotes in the conference finals.

But speaking of the Coyotes that year, what Mike Smith managed to do in going on a monster run to help the Coyotes to the division title and all the way to the conference finals was incredible. No idea where I’d rank it if I were to try, and I don’t feel I could fairly and objectively rank it either, since I was a Coyotes fan. For reference, I don’t have a large sample size in the “that I’ve personally witnessed” department since the first playoff year I watched a large part of was 2002.

 

[Jumptheshark]

For me he needs more than just 2 good seasons. And I know we had this thread before--it just keeps getting lock

 

[Moose Head]

Being seen as a bit of a dick doesn’t help especially when you embarrass the NHL. Another Bruin, Cheevers, got in because he was well liked by the right people.

Personally, I respect that he stood up for his beliefs, regardless if I agree with him or not.

 

[byrath]

He had 2 seasons over 920 and 2 seasons over 930, that's more than enough repetition, not even close to Cheechoo's 28/56/38 with no playoff success. His playoff save percentage stats are a reflection of his God tier run and his excellent play in general. Bergeron and Chara are also a part of some monumental collapses in their own right, so definitely not some Hockey Gods either.

Longevity deserves respect, but peak coupled with playoff peak is the most important. Is anybody really gonna take Rogie Vachon or Vernon over him because they cranked out 10 more years of 20 win seasons? It's irrelevant

Vernon has 2 cups and 3 excellent playoff runs, and was a good goalie for 15 years, I'll easily take him over Thomas.

 

[NVious]

His 2 above .920 he was 5th and 12th behind guys like Jimmy Howard and Brian Elliot. The two above .930 were the only relevant HOF seasons.

You brought up Cheechoo to imply he's basically a one season wonder, I showed you other years he was great. Not sure what bringing up goalies that have 250+ wins in the NHL has to do with him, if anything it further highlights my point in that they had longer careers, at times were great, had more wins and yet nobody in their right mind would take them over Thomas because again what matters most for a goalie is pure excellence, not being able to put together 12+ years of over 900 save percentage

 

[Gm0ney]

He deserves to be in the HoF. Deserved his Vezinas and won a Cup and the Conn Smythe? Come on...

 

[NVious]

Vernon has 2 cups and 3 excellent playoff runs, and was a good goalie for 15 years, I'll easily take him over Thomas.

Yeah he was a good goalie, 0 vezinas though. Peak>everything for goalies. Even when you look at his best years in the playoffs, he's never clearly the best goalie, if at all.

 

[bambamcam4ever]

Don’t get me wrong he was obviously a level above other goalies that year but it’s hard to put his stats in context or take his “highest save % ever” record seriously in that environment. If he repeated that standard deviation another time or two in a more normal goalie year I think he’s an easy slam dunk, but as it stands he’s like the Cheechoo of goalies in terms of a late bloomer at the right place in the right time on the right team during an abnormal rule environment that was never repeated consistently. Playing behind prime Chara and prime Bergeron at the absolute peak of goalie performance hurts him even if it’s not necessarily fair to him, not like he chose to be a starter specifically in that situation.

The fact that his backup replicated his RS and PO performance 2 years later might suggest that Thomas was not the one most responsible for the goal against numbers