How good would Forsberg and Lindros been if they were not plagued by injuries?

Janvonpobben

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They are both arguable some of the most talented players in history, but both missed a significant amount of games due to injuries. Forsberg played 708 games and Lindros played 760.

Both had career ending injuries. Lindros with concussion problems and Forsberg had chronic foot problems.

If healthy, were would they rank alltime?

Higher then Crosby and Jagr?
 

VanIslander

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Jagr was a demi hockey god.

When no one matched Gretzky or Lemieux, Jagr was the only voiced name near him (when they were talking about offensive talent - about forwards essentially as beer held for Bourque abounded).

Jagr had more talent but less team success and acclaim than Crosby.

Forsberg vs. Lindros has been debated since BEFORE the Internet was in homes (you went to Internet cafes back then or else waited 5+ minutes for every upload or download - walking in quicksand we did in the '90s).

I am 100% on one side of the FvsL issue... but the reasons have been hashed to mud.
 

Janvonpobben

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Jagr was a demi hockey god.

When no one matched Gretzky or Lemieux, Jagr was the only voiced name near him (when they were talking about offensive talent - about forwards essentially as beer held for Bourque abounded).

Jagr had more talent but less team success and acclaim than Crosby.

Forsberg vs. Lindros has been debated since BEFORE the Internet was in homes (you went to Internet cafes back then or else waited 5+ minutes for every upload or download - walking in quicksand we did in the '90s).

I am 100% on one side of the FvsL issue... but the reasons have been hashed to mud.
This isnt a Forsberg vs Lindros thread. It is a Forsberg + Lindros vs the rest thread.

If healthy, they could had 300-400 more games in the leauge and thats significant.
 

57special

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Lindros probably top 10? Hard to say... durability is a skill in itself. He was so big and dominant physically. Forsberg was great, but less dominant. If we are going to play this game, imagine if Orr was healthy, or even played in an era where they had arthroscopic surgery.

Howe was basically the Lindros of his era. Makes it even more incredible how durable he was, playing without a helmet.
 

VanIslander

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This isnt a Forsberg vs Lindros thread. It is a Forsberg + Lindros vs the rest thread.

If healthy, they could had 300-400 more games in the leauge and thats significant.
You did ask if they would rank higher than Jagr and Crosby. The short answer is no.

The long answer is: Forsberg had the passing to OWN today's NHL. He had to drive dump trucks through snowstorms instead of today's hang gliders on breezy afternoons.

Seriously. Just compare era defensemen. Not to mention the significant rule changes post-lockout. And the goons.

Paul Kariya would have raised the Stanley Cup in today's NHL. Forsberg would be flashing even more rings than he has!
 

Staniowski

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We more or less know how good Lindros and Forsberg were. They might have gotten a little better without injuries, but, for the most part, we know.

They're not that far off from Jagr and Crosby.

How to rank them? That depends on what it is you're ranking. Some people care about longevity when ranking, and some people don't care about it much at all. Longevity should never be a major factor in rankings, so Lindros and Forsberg should be ranked appropriately high.
 

JackSlater

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If we assume good health for both of them, to a reasonable degree, I think that they both end up usually ranked behind Jagr and Crosby. They played at the same time as Jagr and neither peaked as high as 1999 or 2000 Jagr, and I don't think that health changes that. All time ranking I can see top 30, top 25 type players. Top 20 if things really go right, but that's an exceptionally high level.
 

Nick Hansen

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Lindros stopped being relevant about half-way through his career, at age 26. Forsberg remained elite from pretty much day one to the last game he played in the NHL (not counting the last desperate comeback). Forsberg was a much smarter player, Lindros when he couldn't bully people the same way lost his main advantage.
 

Janvonpobben

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We more or less know how good Lindros and Forsberg were.
Definitely not. They just didnt miss games. They were hampered by their injuries more then any other star player at the time.

Lindros played like 5 seasons being afraid for another hit to the head. Forsberg had 20+ surgeries.

I think both players were as talented as Jagr.
 
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Staniowski

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Definitely not. They just didnt miss games. They were hampered by their injuries more then any other star player at the time.

Lindros played like 5 seasons being afraid for another hit to the head. Forsberg had 20+ surgeries.

I think both players were as talented as Jagr.
I mean, in the case of Lindros, BEFORE the concussions....so, '94 to '97. Those versions of Lindros, we know how good that player was. It's possible he gets a little better, without concussions. But we know, more or less.

I think you can at least compare Jagr, Lindros, and Forsberg. They're close enough that you can reasonably discuss them.
 
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JackSlater

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Definitely not. They just didnt miss games. They were hampered by their injuries more then any other star player at the time.

Lindros played like 5 seasons being afraid for another hit to the head. Forsberg had 20+ surgeries.

I think both players were as talented as Jagr.
Bure and Kariya are pretty much right there with them in terms of being hampered by injuries in the same era. Selanne definitely impacted as well though to a lesser degree.

I don't think that Lindros or Forberg get much better on a game to game basis if they are gifted good health, they just get more games in and accumulate more stuff. Somewhat better I guess but to me Jagr is their best case scenario, except that Jagr actually reached that level.
 

The Panther

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Let's put it this way: If I knew everyone was going to be healthy, and I could start a franchise with either Crosby or Lindros, I'd (probably) take Lindros. Admitedly, Crosby seems the stabler, more socially amiable personality, but Lindros on the ice was more dominant for his team than Crosby. He tilted the ice more. What Lindros never had in Philly was a Sakic or a Malkin to help lighten the burden on him.

Forsberg wasn't necessarily any 'worse' than Lindros and could also be incredibly dominant. With Lemieux old and Jagr withering in Washington, Forsberg was the best player in the world in 2002-03, and his +52 in the dead puck era was ridiculous. Through the dead puck era, Forsberg matched Jagr in scoring level, and his plus-minus-per-game (if you will) was the best among all NHL forwards. He also tilted the ice. He benefitted from having a Sakic on his team to lighten the load, but he also stepped up in crunch time (when healthy).

Basically, what I'm saying is, at their respective bests, I find nothing much to choose between Lindros, Forsberg, or Crosby. All very equal in peak / prime ability.
 

tabness

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They are both arguable some of the most talented players in history, but both missed a significant amount of games due to injuries. Forsberg played 708 games and Lindros played 760.

Both had career ending injuries. Lindros with concussion problems and Forsberg had chronic foot problems.

If healthy, were would they rank alltime?

Higher then Crosby and Jagr?

I think they already better than both, especially Lindros and like even in the late nineties I remember my man Barry Melrose always pumping up Forsberg as the best so...

We saw what made both great, just shorter careers than many other superstars
 

Dale53130

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It's funny, because I swore it was Mario Lemieux in 1997, "symbolically" passing the torch to Lindros as "The Next One", which was also echoed by Wayne Gretzky. I don't recall either one of them saying (or hinting) that it was Jagr's league now. And Mario played with Jagr!

I don't recall ever reading any publication, from 1990 (when Lindros was still with Oshawa), through to 1998 (pre-concussions) when anyone who was covering the sport of hockey, ever said that Jagr was as good or superior to Lindros.

Even after Jagr's monster 1996 campaign (playing behind Lemieux which helps), I still never entertained the idea (and I doubt many people then did either) that you could do a 1-for-1 swap for Lindros and Jagr, without Philadelphia asking what else are you throwing in (not that they were going to do it anyway).

He had a ton of talent too. You can still watch his highlights, and while he bullied guys (sure), it's kind of impossible to be checking and fighting while scoring goals and racking up assists. He was very gifted offensively in his own right. I never felt that he took a backseat to Jagr in terms of offensive talent (up to '98), and it's not like Lindros only had that part of the game down.

Again, I wasn't even a Lindros fan at the time.
 

Janvonpobben

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They had so many freak injuries. Forsberg must be the only player who had surgery to remove his spleen.

If not he wins the conn smythe that year. Avs had just defeated kiings in 7, forsberg was the point leader and andy murray called him a robot.
 

VanIslander

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To be clear.... if any torch was to be passed... Gretz thought it would go to Forsberg (or Kariya but he settled on Forsberg).

His passing put him a tier ahead of Nieuwendyk.

In today's NHL, with these rules? He'd rule the roost.

 

Hippasus

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It's funny, because I swore it was Mario Lemieux in 1997, "symbolically" passing the torch to Lindros as "The Next One", which was also echoed by Wayne Gretzky. I don't recall either one of them saying (or hinting) that it was Jagr's league now. And Mario played with Jagr!

I don't recall ever reading any publication, from 1990 (when Lindros was still with Oshawa), through to 1998 (pre-concussions) when anyone who was covering the sport of hockey, ever said that Jagr was as good or superior to Lindros.

Even after Jagr's monster 1996 campaign (playing behind Lemieux which helps), I still never entertained the idea (and I doubt many people then did either) that you could do a 1-for-1 swap for Lindros and Jagr, without Philadelphia asking what else are you throwing in (not that they were going to do it anyway).

He had a ton of talent too. You can still watch his highlights, and while he bullied guys (sure), it's kind of impossible to be checking and fighting while scoring goals and racking up assists. He was very gifted offensively in his own right. I never felt that he took a backseat to Jagr in terms of offensive talent (up to '98), and it's not like Lindros only had that part of the game down.

Again, I wasn't even a Lindros fan at the time.
A bit off-topic, but in the late 90s, as someone who likes stats and offense, I saw Jagr as better than Lindros. He was like Lemieux-lite to me. Lindros' peak was just too short-lived. Like 67 others said above, the styles of play in part led to the injuries.
 

Staniowski

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Forsberg's passing was awesome. I remember talking about his "Gretzky-like" passes in the late '90s. Other than Gretzky and Lemieux, Forsberg and Kucherov are the most beautiful passers ever. Players like Jagr, Crosby, Malkin, and McDavid are great passers too, but they don't quite have the pure beauty of Forsberg and Kucherov.
 
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tabness

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It's funny, because I swore it was Mario Lemieux in 1997, "symbolically" passing the torch to Lindros as "The Next One", which was also echoed by Wayne Gretzky. I don't recall either one of them saying (or hinting) that it was Jagr's league now. And Mario played with Jagr!

I don't recall ever reading any publication, from 1990 (when Lindros was still with Oshawa), through to 1998 (pre-concussions) when anyone who was covering the sport of hockey, ever said that Jagr was as good or superior to Lindros.

Even after Jagr's monster 1996 campaign (playing behind Lemieux which helps), I still never entertained the idea (and I doubt many people then did either) that you could do a 1-for-1 swap for Lindros and Jagr, without Philadelphia asking what else are you throwing in (not that they were going to do it anyway).

He had a ton of talent too. You can still watch his highlights, and while he bullied guys (sure), it's kind of impossible to be checking and fighting while scoring goals and racking up assists. He was very gifted offensively in his own right. I never felt that he took a backseat to Jagr in terms of offensive talent (up to '98), and it's not like Lindros only had that part of the game down.

Again, I wasn't even a Lindros fan at the time.

Yeah I remember the big storyline in 1997 was that Lindros was taking the torch from Gretzky and Lemieux as the Flyers rolled through both the Penguins and Rangers in the playoffs and he was just following his destiny to the cup. It just so happened that the Wings were clicking on all cylinders, the Flyers weren't, Vernon was playing amazing and the Flyers goalies somehow seemed even worse than they were earlier in the playoffs (which wasn't really that good either lol)

Disappointing performance all around from the Flyers, and Lindros himself, and he took a lot of heat about that going forward. Then there was of course Canada's failure in Nagano, and the concussions, and by 1999 when Gretzky retired, it was Jagr who the storyline for the torch in the final game that happened to be against the Penguins.

Even before all those failure storylines, Lindros just was never loved by the media in the same way as other mega hyped guys like Crosby or McDavid. Seems like there were always people wanting Lindros to fail even in the media and always finding something to chirp him on (I mean Crosby and McDavid certainly had/have their share of haters in terms of online fans as we can see on HF, but the hockey media seemed to be firmly behind both of them in their early years - with Crosby especially as he was especially important for the New NHL marketing, and he had the early success with the cup and Vancouver gold, but also McDavid as we saw just recently with Sportsnet almost solely focusing on him throughout the playoffs/finals, seriously felt the way they were talking after game 4 that the Oilers just won the cup lol).

Keeping that in mind, there were definitely cases of the hockey media taking others over Lindros in the mid/late nineties even before the sweep/Nagano. The Hockey News Yearbook after 1995-1996 had Jagr over Lindros. I remember after during/after 1996-1997 there was a lot of Kariya hype as well and some would have him as the next one. Of course, as I mentioned before, there was little bit about Forsberg himself as the best at the time. The Hockey News Top 50 program also included Jagr but not Lindros (who placed somewhere in the 50s in the extended 100 list they put out later) and that was compiled somewhere between the end of the 1995-1996 season and before the conclusion of the 1996-1997 season, even as it was broadcast later after the conclusion of the 1996-1997 season. If they did that in like 2010 or 2020 or whatever it would be inconcievable for them to leave off Crosby or McDavid or whoever the next hyped guy is, but at the time, not super surprising to have Lindros not show up though. A lot of the old school people in hockey at the time hated Lindros ever since he refused to report to Quebec, and much less focus paid to "marketing the stars" than now.

In general though, I think you are right that Lindros was the main guy until like Nagano, but there wasn't a unanimity (I don't really bother with The Hockey News or traditional hockey media for the new NHL, but I think The Hockey News put Crosby as first for like 10 years straight or something lol - it's a totally different game in the media now)

Obviously in terms of looking at it now, Kariya, like Lindros, had his career cut down shortly after this period. Jagr, while his star did rise to to tope around the turn of the miliennium a bit, faded almost just as fast and massively in the early 2000s. Forsberg seemed to be the clear winner in the acclaim department in the early 2000s, but he too was mostly out of sight and out of mind by the new NHL. Jagr reestablished some of his star power in the new NHL but that too faded pretty quick, but that retour after the KHL stint and climbing up the leaderboards will do wonders for you, and stats in sports seem to be more important now, as they are far more readily available and easily accessible, and society just seems more data focused nowadays anyway.
 
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VanIslander

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Anyone who thought Lindros better than Jagr was from Philly, was 6'4+ or wannabe, or loathed Pitt as much as i did. But i never could deny Jagr's talent. His lazy play, his lack of finish- he proved me f'in' right in Washington - ..... ugh, i'd trade him for claude & esa any day. JJ got it together late in his career, when he came back from Europe, but by then he couldn't overcome
 

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