How do you improve the Wings?

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Team defense
Team defense
Team defense

I was very happy that Yzerman mentioned that several times and didn't just put it on the players but also called out the coaching staff for having to show this team how to play that way.

 

[Retire91]

For all the "whining" about it being 5 years just wanted to post the roster Yzerman took over and keep in mind it takes a good 4-5 years most times to even know if a draft pick will play at NHL level. Much of Yzerman's draft is not even on the roster yet.

But most notably there is 1 single player from this roster that is still on the team 5 years later. If that does not underscore the extent of the rebuild I don't know what does. A rebuild is going to certainly change the face of the team, but 1 player. 1 player made the transition from Holland to Yzerman.

I think Rasmussen and Veleno are the only two Holland prospects that eventually made the team but are at best roll players.

We all want to make the playoffs, but apparently only a subset of us understand reality.

Detroit Red Wings 2018-19 roster and scoring statistics at hockeydb.com

The roster, scoring and goaltender statistics for the 2018-19 Detroit Red Wings playing in the NHL.

www.hockeydb.com

 

[jkutswings]

For all the "whining" about it being 5 years just wanted to post the roster Yzerman took over and keep in mind it takes a good 4-5 years most times to even know if a draft pick will play at NHL level. Much of Yzerman's draft is not even on the roster yet.

But most notably there is 1 single player from this roster that is still on the team 5 years later. If that does not underscore the extent of the rebuild I don't know what does. A rebuild is going to certainly change the face of the team, but 1 player. 1 player made the transition from Holland to Yzerman.

I think Rasmussen and Veleno are the only two Holland prospects that eventually made the team but are at best roll players.

We all want to make the playoffs, but apparently only a subset of us understand reality.

Detroit Red Wings 2018-19 roster and scoring statistics at hockeydb.com

The roster, scoring and goaltender statistics for the 2018-19 Detroit Red Wings playing in the NHL.

www.hockeydb.com

I don't object to Detroit going from horrendous to nearly making the playoffs in 5 years, while also having some good kids on the roster and some good prospects on the way. That's a good job by the front office.

I object to the concept that a rebuild should only have one phase: hoard picks, play the long game, and 90+ percent of your additions should be stopgap vets while waiting for the rest of the kids to solve all your problems.

Look at each of those kids (and future draft picks) and ask: is this an element important enough that I can't realistically get it elsewhere for a similar opportunity cost, or am I better served in packaging this asset for a better asset?

Example: Nate Danielson. Plays a premium position of need, trending well, acquitted himself very well last year in limited action. I would need to be absolutely blown away to trade this kid.

Example 2: Marco Kasper and Carter Mazur. Each brings useful elements to the team, but both have a debatable ceiling and could wind up playing the same position. I would be picky about the return, but I would absolutely be willing to include at least one of these guys in a trade for a quality NHL player that fits the timeline.

Example 3: 2024 first round draft pick. I have zero delusions to expect a top half of the lineup caliber player at 15th overall, not to mention that it'll take 3-5 years (depending on player position and style) to get a return on this investment. If there's a top six forward or a top four defenseman I can trade for, I would be THRILLED to include this in a package.

And so on.

 

[Cyborg Yzerberg]

It’s not an overnight fix, I’m not sure what you expected. This team was projected by most to finish seventh in the division. We have two, almost three young players on the team full time. The rest aren’t up yet. The team has improved every season since we bottomed out, and getting to the next level is just going to take a little time and luck.

 

[jkutswings]

Anaheim Ducks' Trevor Zegras speaks on trade rumours: 'It’s hard not to see. Definitely sucks' | TSN

Amid an injury-plagued campaign, trade rumours followed Trevor Zegras as the Anaheim Ducks explored interest in the 23-year-old star.

www.tsn.ca

This is what I mean.

Am I specifically asking Detroit to trade for Zegras? No. But situations LIKE this continue to happen. So stay vigilant for a situation LIKE this, with a player you do like, and be ready to make an aggressive offer.

 

[LongTimeDRWF]

Team defense
Team defense
Team defense

I was very happy that Yzerman mentioned that several times and didn't just put it on the players but also called out the coaching staff for having to show this team how to play that way.

I half remember a quote from a star player on another team getting ready to face the wings in the next round of the playoffs when a reporter asked which line he expected to be playing against, the answer was "It doesn't matter to me which line I play against, they all play the same..."

 

[RED WINGS STOMP]

I love the, "Yzerman messed up, we needed to tank more crowd".

Buffalo has two 1 overalls on their blue line and tons of picks throughout this org, where did that get them?

New Jersey has two 1 overalls at C and a 2 overall on their blue line, and they made a big trade for a top line power forward. How did their season go?

Rebuilds are not an exact science, no matter what path you take and you can't plan for a 1 overall anyway because of the lottery. At some point you have to try and win, the Wings are doing that.

 

[norrisnick]

Anaheim Ducks' Trevor Zegras speaks on trade rumours: 'It’s hard not to see. Definitely sucks' | TSN

Amid an injury-plagued campaign, trade rumours followed Trevor Zegras as the Anaheim Ducks explored interest in the 23-year-old star.

www.tsn.ca

This is what I mean.

Am I specifically asking Detroit to trade for Zegras? No. But situations LIKE this continue to happen. So stay vigilant for a situation LIKE this, with a player you do like, and be ready to make an aggressive offer.

The winning move is to make a move like this that doesn't hit the airwaves. Much like the Hronek trade but in reverse. Which obviously indicates Stevie is working the phones in such a fashion at all times. And he has stated as such that GMs are in constant communication like this. The absence of a finalized trade does not indicate the leg-work isn't being made in the background.

 

[JediOrderPizza]

I love the, "Yzerman messed up, we needed to tank more crowd".

Buffalo has two 1 overalls on their blue line and tons of picks throughout this org, where did that get them?

New Jersey has two 1 overalls at C and a 2 overall on their blue line, and they made a big trade for a top line power forward. How did their season go?

Rebuilds are not an exact science, no matter what path you take and you can't plan for a 1 overall anyway because of the lottery. At some point you have to try and win, the Wings are doing that.

Or the we should've tanked longer and we should also be a playoff team now.

It can't be both, you cannot criticize Yzerman because no playoffs yet suggest he should have tanked longer and guess what? We would still not be in the playoffs and probably further away than we are now.

But they would just bitch about that as well, because in all honestly people just wanna bitch.

 

[LongTimeDRWF]

Just tossing out a random one out there, did anyone get to the wings practices the last month of the season? Ansar Khan on X reported a few times during some late March practices that Raymond was taking center (1C) on some line rushes, just wondering if it was a common place thing throughout April or perhaps just a learning experiment as Larkin was coming off injury...kind of interesting to me, usually the wings are converting centers to wingers, likely a nothing burgher, but as Spock would say...fascinating...

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Or the we should've tanked longer and we should also be a playoff team now.

It can't be both, you cannot criticize Yzerman because no playoffs yet suggest he should have tanked longer and guess what? We would still not be in the playoffs and probably further away than we are now.

But they would just bitch about that as well, because in all honestly people just wanna bitch.

Are their any posters, the exact same posters, saying that we should have both made the playoffs in 2024 AND should be tanking for 1st overall in 2024?

I personally haven't seen that said by the same poster

 

[JediOrderPizza]

Are their any posters, the exact same posters, saying that we should have both made the playoffs in 2024 AND should be tanking for 1st overall in 2024?

I personally haven't seen that said by the same poster

Tanking in 2024? Probably not, but tanking more before the last couple seasons? I can easily see that. But they live in fantasy land where Bedard joins the Red Wings and we are instantly cup contenders.

But no I don't have receipts, and don't feel like digging through lunatic memoirs for street cred.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Tanking in 2024? Probably not, but tanking more before the last couple seasons? I can easily see that. But they live in fantasy land where Bedard joins the Red Wings and we are instantly cup contenders.

But no I don't have receipts, and don't feel like digging through lunatic memoirs for street cred.

Ok fair

It just seemed like it was based on fact is all

 

[norrisnick]

Posters exist that have both argued in favor of tanking longer that are also critical of how long it's taken. Particularly those that like to argue Holland's moves later in his tenure are irrelevant to the timeline that Yzerman is working with.

Tanking in 2024? Probably not, but tanking more before the last couple seasons? I can easily see that. But they live in fantasy land where Bedard joins the Red Wings and we are instantly cup contenders.

But no I don't have receipts, and don't feel like digging through lunatic memoirs for street cred.

MIchkov is usually their jam... Gives them an out when the fallacy of rebuilding via the lottery is brought up.

But then also is silly because the hope is for magic beans half a decade (and two GMs given their druthers) later...

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Posters exist that have both argued in favor of tanking longer that are also critical of how long it's taken. Particularly those that like to argue Holland's moves later in his tenure are irrelevant to the timeline that Yzerman is working with.


MIchkov is usually their jam... Gives them an out when the fallacy of rebuilding via the lottery is brought up.

But then also is silly because the hope is for magic beans half a decade (and two GMs given their druthers) later...

Is it possible they meant we should have tanked longer to mean in 2021 and 2022 not 2024 and 2025?

As far as the regime arguement goes, we also see posters bring up ottawa and Buffalo as what to avoid, both of which have changed GMs and coaches, exact same as KH and SY, therefore the timeline must equally restart and what one GM did or didn't do can not be used against the timeline of the next..

It would be great I guess if we didn't devolve into just 2 camps entrenched in opinions yelling at one another over a fence..

 

[Michael Brand Eggs]

It's weird that we're having these kinds of conversations when the major pieces we got from rebuilding aren't even on the team yet.

Talk about impatient. You can't judge the rebuild until the rebuilding actually occurs. Until then, you're just judging your ideas of how the rebuild should go.

 

[Axel Sandy Pelikan]

I love the, "Yzerman messed up, we needed to tank more crowd".

Buffalo has two 1 overalls on their blue line and tons of picks throughout this org, where did that get them?

New Jersey has two 1 overalls at C and a 2 overall on their blue line, and they made a big trade for a top line power forward. How did their season go?

Rebuilds are not an exact science, no matter what path you take and you can't plan for a 1 overall anyway because of the lottery. At some point you have to try and win, the Wings are doing that.

Shit man, Buffalo has been about as fortunate as a team can be and they're still puttering around outside of the playoffs.

They won secondary lottery, got Eichel. Eichel took them nowhere, they deal him and get Krebs who looks good and Alex Tuch who basically replaced his production.

They won lottery, got Dahlin
They won lottery, got Power.

Dealt for Tage Thompson who went from also-ran to a legit 40 goal C.

And they finished behind Detroit. Buffalo is not a franchise to model doing f***ing anything. They've gotten handed just some of the greatest lotto and rebuild luck you could get... and they are running out dogshit goalies

 

[Axel Sandy Pelikan]

Is it possible they meant we should have tanked longer to mean in 2021 and 2022 not 2024 and 2025?

As far as the regime arguement goes, we also see posters bring up ottawa and Buffalo as what to avoid, both of which have changed GMs and coaches, exact same as KH and SY, therefore the timeline must equally restart and what one GM did or didn't do can not be used against the timeline of the next..

It would be great I guess if we didn't devolve into just 2 camps entrenched in opinions yelling at one another over a fence..

Buffalo is what to avoid because like I say earlier... they've gotten handouts galore and they're not progressing and now those handouts are gonna get expensive as hell and they haven't even made the playoffs.

Ottawa similarly. They landed some really good young talent, but the problem is that young talent gets expensive very quickly and then to improve your roster, you have to take a wrecking ball to part of it. It's why Toronto has been dogshit while having one of the strongest rosters in the league. Because they aren't a playoff team and to add to their team, they're hard f***in capped out. To actually address the things that make their playoff existence a nightmare for them... they'd have to detonate a bomb elsewhere on the roster.... or just hope that Samsonov plays above his head and the old motherf***ers like Giordano keep wanting to go play there for a stick of gum.

 

[19 for president]

I'm very happy with our prospect pool and overall build. This will clearly be a backend team, which I think is the most sustainable in the cap era. We just need one of Augustine or Cossa to hit. I believe the defense is already starting to round out with Seider, Aljo, and Ed.

Also can we stop with the all of Yzerman's late round picks stink business:

We all hated Cleveland and I would like to see some more boom/bust offensive picks, but we still have 3ish trending NHLers outside of the 1st round from every draft except maybe 2020. Viro and Hanas don't look to be trending up. Do we have a homerun type pick, probably not offensively unless Buch goes full Bread/Kucherov on us, but those picks are getting rarer and rarer.

2019:
Aljo- 2nd Round (Should be in the NHL next season)
Tuomisto- 2nd Round (Trending up towards bottom pair NHL dman)
Soderblom- 6th Round (Trending down, but also huge guys take forever to develop)

2020:
Wallinder- 2nd Round (Had a solid if unremarkable season in GR, but still NHL Trending)
Hanas- 2nd Round (Trending Down, but still some NHL potential)
Viro- 3rd Round(Trending Down, but still some NHL potential)

2021:
Buium- 2nd Round (Signed & had a great NCAA season, and won a championship)
Mazur- 3rd Round (Had a solid AHL season, but very much looking like an NHLer)
Savage- 4th Round (Solid NCAA Season at MSU, trending towards a bottom 6)

2022:
Buchelnikov- 2nd Round (Excellent KHL season, long development path but tons of skill)
James: 2nd Round (Bottom 6 guy per many accounts, still trending towards that development)
Johansson- 4th Round (Had a very solid rookie SEL season)
Lombardi- 4th Round (Showing a ton of skill, needs to get stronger but still trending well)

2023:
Augustine- 2nd Round (Had a fantastic NCAA AND WJCs, trending as an elite goalie prospect)
Gibson- 2nd Round (Solid season)
Finnie- 7th Round (Already signed due to his fantastic D+1 year)

As for signings. This is the 1st year where contracts will impact us. If we buyout Husso & Holl, Trade Fabbri & Maata (w/ 1 mil retention EA) we actually can open up quite a bit of cap space and I think all of those are all really doable options. The Holl buyout sort of stinks but its not terrible since we have so many dmen on ELCs potentially coming up over the next few years. Doing all that frees up about 14 mil in cap space. We can use that to get a top 4 and maybe a top 6 winger. Would require a few min guys on the 4th line.

We need to find a good partner for Ed. I think he can be a top 4 off the bat next season but he needs a partner better than Petry. Petry and Aljo can swap in and out as 5/6. Walman and Chiarot can bounce around between the 1st and 3rd pair with Seider. If we can even out Seider's Quality of competition then its not a big deal.

I think Lyon will look better next season overall. He played a ton of games in a shorter period of time. He hasn't played more than 14 games anytime prior to last season and then shot up to 44. This is why you rarely see goalies not get at least 1 full AHL season as a starter before jumping to the NHL and a lot of rookie goalies becoming starters hit a road block towards the end of the season. So I am not sure he wore down and looked very meh towards the end of the season. I'd love to get a better goalie or at least a better 1 b option than Reimer, but I still feel better with Lyon/Reimer than Lyon/Husso at this point. Plus if we can fix the D that will help a lot.

At forward I'm less pro re-signing Kane. I think we need a forward with some size and dirty goal scoring ability. Ray and DBC fill the smaller skilled winger spots in the top 6. Berggren also likely gets a top 6 look next year so now 3 of 4 are small wingers. Need someone who can score the dirty goals there too.

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

It's weird that we're having these kinds of conversations when the major pieces we got from rebuilding aren't even on the team yet.

Talk about impatient. You can't judge the rebuild until the rebuilding actually occurs. Until then, you're just judging your ideas of how the rebuild should go.

My fear is none of these guys will be high impact stars we are so starved for. We need one of these guys to be Brayden Point. Or ASP to be Quinn Hughes then we are talking.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Shit man, Buffalo has been about as fortunate as a team can be and they're still puttering around outside of the playoffs.

They won secondary lottery, got Eichel. Eichel took them nowhere, they deal him and get Krebs who looks good and Alex Tuch who basically replaced his production.

They won lottery, got Dahlin
They won lottery, got Power.

Dealt for Tage Thompson who went from also-ran to a legit 40 goal C.

And they finished behind Detroit. Buffalo is not a franchise to model doing f***ing anything. They've gotten handed just some of the greatest lotto and rebuild luck you could get... and they are running out dogshit goalies

It’s more than goalies. Buffalo players would rather lose 6-5 than win 3-2. Goalies don’t help but their system and roster construction isn’t great.

 

[rangersblues]

It’s not an overnight fix, I’m not sure what you expected. This team was projected by most to finish seventh in the division. We have two, almost three young players on the team full time. The rest aren’t up yet. The team has improved every season since we bottomed out, and getting to the next level is just going to take a little time and luck.

We took a big step this season. All 82 games counted. They played their hearts out to the bitter end. I'm unsure what 4 or 5 playoff games would have added in reality. I guess there's always a chance but I think the Rangers would have disposed of Detroit fairly handily. (I'm a Detroit fan. My moniker is for the Kitchener Rangers)

Detroit is in a tough position the next few seasons. Boston, Toronto, Tampa and Florida aren't going anywhere. Ottawa is up and coming. It's by far the toughest division in hockey. There's really only the second wild card up for grabs the next few seasons.

That said I hope that Stevie doesn't sign anymore Copp like deals for middling players. Like someone said I'd rather trade a couple of those hamburger contracts for a nice juicy steak.

 

[lidstromiscool]

My fear is none of these guys will be high impact stars we are so starved for. We need one of these guys to be Brayden Point. Or ASP to be Quinn Hughes then we are talking.

I think thats the biggest problem with the rebuild. There is zero elite talent on the team outside of maybe Raymond. I think everyone agrees that we should be contending in 2027 if not before. Who's going to be the key players on that team? 31 year old Larkin, Raymond, Debrincat, Seider should all be legit 1st liners. Does anyone think that core is good enough to contend in a couple years? It wasn't good enough to even make the playoffs this season. Do any of the prospects in the system project to be core pieces? Edvinsson, Kasper and Danielson are nice prospects, but I just don't see this team having enough talent in the near future.

 

[Retire91]

I don't object to Detroit going from horrendous to nearly making the playoffs in 5 years, while also having some good kids on the roster and some good prospects on the way. That's a good job by the front office.

I object to the concept that a rebuild should only have one phase: hoard picks, play the long game, and 90+ percent of your additions should be stopgap vets while waiting for the rest of the kids to solve all your problems.

Look at each of those kids (and future draft picks) and ask: is this an element important enough that I can't realistically get it elsewhere for a similar opportunity cost, or am I better served in packaging this asset for a better asset?

Example: Nate Danielson. Plays a premium position of need, trending well, acquitted himself very well last year in limited action. I would need to be absolutely blown away to trade this kid.

Example 2: Marco Kasper and Carter Mazur. Each brings useful elements to the team, but both have a debatable ceiling and could wind up playing the same position. I would be picky about the return, but I would absolutely be willing to include at least one of these guys in a trade for a quality NHL player that fits the timeline.

Example 3: 2024 first round draft pick. I have zero delusions to expect a top half of the lineup caliber player at 15th overall, not to mention that it'll take 3-5 years (depending on player position and style) to get a return on this investment. If there's a top six forward or a top four defenseman I can trade for, I would be THRILLED to include this in a package.

And so on.

this is the same logic that created the Holland circle jerk perpetual decline. The organization has a growing core. Players like Kasper Mazurc Danileson, Cossa "are" the window. If you switch strategy to spending all your draft capitol to maintain a wild card presence news flash you stay a wild card team or worse. I can't believe to have to explain this when we literally just got out of living 7 years of it.

Yzerman has a good track record of trading, if something comes up he will pull the trigger. You know what he also has a good track record of, pulling talent in the first and second rounds of the draft.

Why is everyone acting like Larkin's peak has to be the window. Larkin is going to be a good player for a long time. Try to make some peace with the "plain as day" strategy and time line, and also acknowledge that it is working.

Also completely overlooking that fact that ELC contracts are key to being competitive. Any GM can blow their draft capitol to pull in some talent right now. You know what that leads to, cap penalization with no depth. If you want this window you keep mentioning its going to take more than 1 or 2 lines no matter how you time it. We don't want to be Burke era Toronto.

 

[norrisnick]

I think thats the biggest problem with the rebuild. There is zero elite talent on the team outside of maybe Raymond. I think everyone agrees that we should be contending in 2027 if not before. Who's going to be the key players on that team? 31 year old Larkin, Raymond, Debrincat, Seider should all be legit 1st liners. Does anyone think that core is good enough to contend in a couple years? It wasn't good enough to even make the playoffs this season. Do any of the prospects in the system project to be core pieces? Edvinsson, Kasper and Danielson are nice prospects, but I just don't see this team having enough talent in the near future.

Yes. Though I'm sure you don't see any talent. Just wish you'd go for all three as you've got 2 of 3 down...