How do you fix the Wings?

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

Jumping back to the main topic for a second.... what do we mean by "fix" the Wings? Ogee in the first post mentioned fixing them in order to make the playoffs, but how are we prioritizing short-term vs long-term success?

Last season, Yzerman de-prioritized prospect development and integrating young players into the roster. Part of that story was Detroit was trying to make the playoffs and that approach gave them a better chance, and part of the story was that this wouldn't really hurt these young players long-term, but....

This approach is not sustainable in terms of re-building your team through the draft. At some point you have to start leaning on those young players. At some point, acquiring a bunch of new vets every season and managing to integrate only your very top prospects into the roster is not rebuilding through the draft. Either you've drafted poorly, or you are just not willing to give those 2nd-tier prospects a chance.

So where does Yzerman go from here? More trades and signings to try to make the playoffs again? Or do we start making a real effort in integrating the Berggrens and Johanssons and Mazurs, and risk the team regressing in the standings? I'm genuinely curious to see, because while I didn't out-and-out hate the approach last season (it was a fun ride almost making the playoffs), it was the first season where Yzerman appeared to depart from the "Yzerplan." And if this is the way it's going to go from now on, I am A) maybe a little worried, and B) I'm going to start calling it the Yzerlie.

You can focus on both short (1-3 years) and long term (4+ years) concurrently. Each move should be made with building on the previous moves.

Detroit has a lot of youth ready or knocking on the door. There should be a priority to get them in games next year at least in lower half of the lineup positions. I’d be OK if Kasper did one more AHL season but he could come in and replace Veleno and I wouldn’t be mad. That’s a short and long term move. Kasper would be preparing to replace Copp/Compher while in a lower role.

Signing someone like Pesce as 2RD solves issues short term for 3 years and allows ASP time to cook to take that job or even bump Seider down to 2RD.

Signing or trading for a 2nd line winger that can drive offense fills an organizational need now and buys Detroit time to look for a longer term solution through the draft.

TLDR, integration is what we need. Detroit drafted well. It’s time to put the kids to the test.

 

[RED WINGS STOMP]

I think anyone with a rumored drug problem, whether true or not won't matter, Yzerman will want no part of them.

 

[jaster]

You can focus on both short (1-3 years) and long term (4+ years) concurrently. Each move should be made with building on the previous moves.

You can, and should, focus on both concurrently, yes. But where is the priority? You can't give equal priority to both, nor should you try. A team should have a clear doctrine, with strategies applied to the roster flowing from that doctrine. Each prospect is a unique case and should be fairly evaluated for what type of opportunities they should be given, yes, but ultimately you're either filling middling spots with vets, or taking a chance on a prospect to grow, and being willing to experience the lumps that go with that.

AlJo is the perfect example of what I'm talking about. He was ready for the NHL this past year and he was de-prioritized in favor of vets. I don't think that is going to hurt him long-term, but again, integrating a young player who is ready for the NHL instead of deploying a vet was not the priority last season.

Will that same approach be applied this season? Are we going to continue to leave all prospects in GR (except for our high picks) until their waiver exemption expires, regardless of whether they are ready or not? Granted, "ready" is subjective and often debated heavily on this forum, but I think what happened last season was pretty clear. And I'm just curious to see if it happens again.

Detroit has a lot of youth ready or knocking on the door. There should be a priority to get them in games next year at least in lower half of the lineup positions. I’d be OK if Kasper did one more AHL season but he could come in and replace Veleno and I wouldn’t be mad. That’s a short and long term move. Kasper would be preparing to replace Copp/Compher while in a lower role.

Signing someone like Pesce as 2RD solves issues short term for 3 years and allows ASP time to cook to take that job or even bump Seider down to 2RD.

Signing or trading for a 2nd line winger that can drive offense fills an organizational need now and buys Detroit time to look for a longer term solution through the draft.

TLDR, integration is what we need. Detroit drafted well. It’s time to put the kids to the test.

Yes, this part of your post is basically what I'm asking about

(I'm not saying I'm opposed to all FA signings or trades, I'm just looking at this more from the macro level)

 

[Nnowski]

Jumping back to the main topic for a second.... what do we mean by "fix" the Wings? Ogee in the first post mentioned fixing them in order to make the playoffs, but how are we prioritizing short-term vs long-term success?

Last season, Yzerman de-prioritized prospect development and integrating young players into the roster. Part of that story was Detroit was trying to make the playoffs and that approach gave them a better chance, and part of the story was that this wouldn't really hurt these young players long-term, but....

This approach is not sustainable in terms of re-building your team through the draft. At some point you have to start leaning on those young players. At some point, acquiring a bunch of new vets every season and managing to integrate only your very top prospects into the roster is not rebuilding through the draft. Either you've drafted poorly, or you are just not willing to give those 2nd-tier prospects a chance.

So where does Yzerman go from here? More trades and signings to try to make the playoffs again? Or do we start making a real effort in integrating the Berggrens and Johanssons and Mazurs, and risk the team regressing in the standings? I'm genuinely curious to see, because while I didn't out-and-out hate the approach last season (it was a fun ride almost making the playoffs), it was the first season where Yzerman appeared to depart from the "Yzerplan." And if this is the way it's going to go from now on, I am A) maybe a little worried, and B) I'm going to start calling it the Yzerlie.

Yzerman saw the issue and acted accordingly. His prospects weren't good enough to put the team in the playoffs (Except for Edvinsson) so he signed a bunch of meh vets. The ownership without a doubt is pushing him to make the playoffs, and that's changed his outlook. He unfortunately trusted his pro scouts too much which led him to sign awful FAs. The team is in a very bad spot where they didn't draft enough elite talent and can't lure high end FAs like a Vegas or Florida. The future is probably the Islanders/Wild as long as one of the goalie prospects pan out.

 

[jaster]

Yzerman saw the issue and acted accordingly. His prospects weren't good enough to put the team in the playoffs (Except for Edvinsson) so he signed a bunch of meh vets. The ownership without a doubt is pushing him to make the playoffs, and that's changed his outlook. He unfortunately trusted his pro scouts too much which led him to sign awful FAs. The team is in a very bad spot where they didn't draft enough elite talent and can't lure high end FAs like a Vegas or Florida. The future is probably the Islanders/Wild as long as one of the goalie prospects pan out.

So this is the scenario of prioritizing the short-term over the long-term, partly because of poor drafting and partly because of ownership influence changing what Yzerman actually wanted to do. I'm not convinced that's all true, but if it is it's disappointing.

 

[Nnowski]

So this is the scenario of prioritizing the short-term over the long-term, partly because of poor drafting and partly because of ownership influence changing what Yzerman actually wanted to do. I'm not convinced that's all true, but if it is it's disappointing.

It's also the reality of tanking. Detroit was at their worst when the top picks were Power & Laf. Even if they got "lucky" they aren't in a better spot. You either need a top pick in a stacked draft, or to hit on your later picks. None of which Detroit did. You can't stay bad forever, this team has the 3rd fewest playoff wins in the last 10 years. The owners want playoff revenue

 

[Frk It]

Yzerman saw the issue and acted accordingly. His prospects weren't good enough to put the team in the playoffs (Except for Edvinsson) so he signed a bunch of meh vets. The ownership without a doubt is pushing him to make the playoffs, and that's changed his outlook. He unfortunately trusted his pro scouts too much which led him to sign awful FAs. The team is in a very bad spot where they didn't draft enough elite talent and can't lure high end FAs like a Vegas or Florida. The future is probably the Islanders/Wild as long as one of the goalie prospects pan out.

The additions since last summer were absolutely a net positive. Sprong, Ghost, Kane, Compher made this team better.

The signings made were all pretty reasonable and a net positive. If you want to complain about the signings made the summer prior, sure… although chiarot looked a heck of a lot better this last year.

Copp is like the only contract given out over the last 2 years I could see being mad about.

 

[jaster]

It's also the reality of tanking. Detroit was at their worst when the top picks were Power & Laf. Even if they got "lucky" they aren't in a better spot. You either need a top pick in a stacked draft, or to hit on your later picks. None of which Detroit did. You can't stay bad forever, this team has the 3rd fewest playoff wins in the last 10 years. The owners want playoff revenue

I'm sure the owners want playoff revenue, but the difference is between Chris Ilitch completely backing up Yzerman's approach when he was originally hired vs. now possibly telling him the rebuild is taking too long, he needs to abandon his original plan, and just start getting into the playoffs, with vets if necessary, long-term goals be damned. And that would be disappointing, at least to me. But I'm not quite convinced Yzerman is being influenced by Chris Ilitch. Though this season may reveal a little more on that front.

 

[jaster]

The additions since last summer were absolutely a net positive. Sprong, Ghost, Kane, Compher made this team better.

The signings made were all pretty reasonable and a net positive. If you want to complain about the signings made the summer prior, sure… although chiarot looked a heck of a lot better this last year.

Copp is like the only contract given out over the last 2 years I could see being mad about.

You conveniently left out one Justin Holl, as well as the Petry trade.

 

[Frk It]

You conveniently left out one Justin Holl, as well as the Petry trade.

That’s fair, would you say more good than bad though… or no? Cause that was my point. And even with a Copp/Holl we are in pretty damn good shape cap-wise over the next few years.

I think it was the natural thing to do with where this re-build was at, I don’t necessarily buy Yzerman was taking orders from ownership against his will.

 

[minimal]

I don't really buy that the goal was playoffs this year. Makes much more sense to consider all the moves last year as "we can't keep icing a bottom ten team", which is less about playoffs and more about pulling out of a controlled swan dive organizationally.

 

[jaster]

That’s fair, would you say more good than bad though… or no? Cause that was my point. And even with a Copp/Holl we are in pretty damn good shape cap-wise over the next few years.

I think it was the natural thing to do with with this re-build was at, I don’t necessarily buy Yzerman was taking orders from ownership against his will.

More good than bad, for sure, and like I said, I'm not even mad about the approach last season. But I don't think I want to see that approach repeated. I think we sacrificed a little in terms of getting closer to being a contender in favor of a short-term jump at the playoffs. And if we keep doing that, I think it will ultimately lead to that long-term plan imploding altogether. I'm prepared for, and ok with, some overall regression this season in order to inject more youth into the roster.

Some on this board are talking about trading away prospects like Berggren and AlJo this offseason, but I'd much rather see us off-load some vets like Holl, even if it means eating some contract or giving up minor assets (does Hanas have any value to anyone in the league?).

 

[Frk It]

More good than bad, for sure, and like I said, I'm not even mad about the approach last season. But I don't think I want to see that approach repeated. I think we sacrificed a little in terms of getting closer to being a contender in favor of a short-term jump at the playoffs. And if we keep doing that, I think it will ultimately lead to that long-term plan imploding altogether. I'm prepared for, and ok with, some overall regression this season in order to inject more youth into the roster.

Some on this board are talking about trading away prospects like Berggren and AlJo this offseason, but I'd much rather see us off-load some vets like Holl, even if it means eating some contract or giving up minor assets (does Hanas have any value to anyone in the league?).

That’s fair. It was a mixed bag for me. I liked and totally saw the reasoning with adding Ghost, Sprong, and Kane. I think they went overboard with log jamming the team with veterans. If they repeat the latter this offseason, I will probably be frustrated by that like folks were this last year.

Will be interesting to see how they approach this off season. I’d say unless it significantly approves the team, leave it alone.

I agree on offloading vets, I’d love to see us move out Holl and/or Maatta. Would move Copp or Fabbri out up front if possible. Perron is at the end of his deal right? Please don’t re-sign him.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

You conveniently left out one Justin Holl, as well as the Petry trade.

I think the Petry trade is mostly terrible as a result of Holl. In an alternate universe where Yzerman doesn't sign Holl, I'm ok with Petry.

(As a sidenote in the last 24 hours I've become painfully aware of how much I reference Capfriendly)

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Jumping back to the main topic for a second.... what do we mean by "fix" the Wings? Ogee in the first post mentioned fixing them in order to make the playoffs, but how are we prioritizing short-term vs long-term success?

Last season, Yzerman de-prioritized prospect development and integrating young players into the roster. Part of that story was Detroit was trying to make the playoffs and that approach gave them a better chance, and part of the story was that this wouldn't really hurt these young players long-term, but....

This approach is not sustainable in terms of re-building your team through the draft. At some point you have to start leaning on those young players. At some point, acquiring a bunch of new vets every season and managing to integrate only your very top prospects into the roster is not rebuilding through the draft. Either you've drafted poorly, or you are just not willing to give those 2nd-tier prospects a chance.

So where does Yzerman go from here? More trades and signings to try to make the playoffs again? Or do we start making a real effort in integrating the Berggrens and Johanssons and Mazurs, and risk the team regressing in the standings? I'm genuinely curious to see, because while I didn't out-and-out hate the approach last season (it was a fun ride almost making the playoffs), it was the first season where Yzerman appeared to depart from the "Yzerplan." And if this is the way it's going to go from now on, I am A) maybe a little worried, and B) I'm going to start calling it the Yzerlie.

Could we do both...? Shed some bad contracts to free up roster spots for a rookie or 2 and cap space to improve the team?

I'd like to see a true rookie up front and SE and Johansson on the back while simultaneously adding a legit top 6 forward and starting goalie

 

[jaster]

I think the Petry trade is mostly terrible as a result of Holl. In an alternate universe where Yzerman doesn't sign Holl, I'm ok with Petry.

(As a sidenote in the last 24 hours I've become painfully aware of how much I reference Capfriendly)

I think it's clear that if Yzerman knew the Petry thing was going to happen, there's no way Holl gets signed. So yeah, each of those guys made the acquisition of the other worse. And AlJo suffered because of it. Hopefully Holl is gone before September.

Losing CapFriendly suuuuuucks.

 

[jaster]

Could we do both...? Shed some bad contracts to free up roster spots for a rookie or 2 and cap space to improve the team?

I'd like to see a true rookie up front and SE and Johansson on the back while simultaneously adding a legit top 6 forward and starting goalie

They can and will do both, but I'm wondering, in cases where the two things collide, which side will win? When they have a middling spot open, and a young player knocking on the door and ready (and still waiver-exempt, like AlJo last year, or even Ed, frankly), will they plug that youngster in, or sign another vet? This is just an academic exercise, these decisions won't come down to that level of simplicity, but how will this off-season look overall compared to last summer?

 

[Henkka]

I agree on offloading vets, I’d love to see us move out Holl and/or Maatta. Would move Copp or Fabbri out up front if possible. Perron is at the end of his deal right? Please don’t re-sign him.

Fabbri and Määttä are clearly the trade bets. Maybe Husso.

Those are problematic caphits, but they have trade value. And we could replace them with cheaper options/own prospects. so losing would not be a big loss, if that cap space creates bigger improvement elsewhere on the roster.

Justin Holl has no trade value. Getting rid of him does not happen at this season. That's for sure. And same with Copp, he could be overpaid, but that term is a killer. And no one can replace his role. So he will be there for a while.

And I would not write Justin Holl still off. Lesser things have happened in hockey, than him rebounding to a decent player. I think he wasn't a fit on last season system, and now they are talking how they could have a more defensive minded system at next season, where different players could be different fits. Next season is the season to rebuild Holl's trade value.

People are bashing Holl like mad, even though he didn't play for last two months. And team was losing games more without him. People bashed Holl, Holl and Holl. That's ridiculous. We have seen these rebounds before, like Chiarot did from horrible season to good season. He was bashed as mad at last summer.

Same could happen to Holl, so please stop bashing, and get real. He has no trade value at the moment, but could have year after. We have to rebuild the value and use him. And he will play only for Red Wings at 2024-2025.

That's the reality.

 

[norrisnick]

Chia - Holl was a fine 3rd pairing.
Problem we had was that none of our RD behind Mo should play higher than the 3rd pair.

Legit 2 RD slots a lot of players better.
Same problem we have at 2C, but the lack of 2 RD hurts more imo.

 

[JediOrderPizza]

If Yzerman was being forced to make the playoffs, wouldn't they have made moves at the deadline? Just doesn't check out.

 

[Nnowski]

If Yzerman was being forced to make the playoffs, wouldn't they have made moves at the deadline? Just doesn't check out.

He probably didn't think any of the deals were worth it. Which in hindsight was an obvious error. You need to save all your picks so you can draft another Brady Cleveland

 

[Steve Yzerlland]

Laine for 3 crazy puffs (box comes with 4)

 

[RED WINGS STOMP]

Dude, I don't know, I tried those crazy puffs this last weekend, they are surprisingly good.

Might need retention on Laine.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

They can and will do both, but I'm wondering, in cases where the two things collide, which side will win? When they have a middling spot open, and a young player knocking on the door and ready (and still waiver-exempt, like AlJo last year, or even Ed, frankly), will they plug that youngster in, or sign another vet? This is just an academic exercise, these decisions won't come down to that level of simplicity, but how will this off-season look overall compared to last summer?

I'd think in cases where the 2 world's of George collide, the tie will go to the better player...

I'd suggest if this summer plays out like 2023, it's because Kasper or SE simply aren't very good...

 

[Frk It]

Chia - Holl was a fine 3rd pairing.
Problem we had was that none of our RD behind Mo should play higher than the 3rd pair.

Legit 2 RD slots a lot of players better.
Same problem we have at 2C, but the lack of 2 RD hurts more imo.

Agreed, which is why my #1 priority for this off-season would be to add one of Montour/Pesce/Roy.

After getting the upgrade I would try to move a few bodies out.