How come Sather always waits till the last minute

[Beacon]

I think McD was a one-off instance for the Rangers, I guess Lundqvist, so a two off-instance?

I do not have a list or anything but I remember, maybe some are inaccurate as I am going from memory but Carter, Richards, Voracek, Simmonds, Seabrook, Bergeron, Lucic, Krejci, Hjalmarsson, Kopitar, Brown as players who were all signed long term before they had to be.

So perhaps Boston, Chicago, LA and Philly are doing something differently?

Are we comparing Brian Boyle and the two Moores to Kopitar, Lucic, and the rest of them?

Players you can't afford to lose (Hank, McDonaugh, Girardi) get different treatment than depth guys, whether in NY or anywhere else.

 

[HockeyBasedNYC]

It's possible that all 4 players are on vacation or may not be available either. It's not just Sather / Gorton and it's a negotiation. What's the rush? To doll out a bad contract?

 

[SA16]

Because, leverage.

 

[NickyFotiu]

It's possible that all 4 players are on vacation or may not be available either. It's not just Sather / Gorton and it's a negotiation. What's the rush? To doll out a bad contract?

Fans get impatient. Fans do not like uncertainty. Fans like news. The irony here is if Slats signed them all tomorrow some of the same fans would say Slats rushed for no reason and paid too much. Like other posters pointed out among some fans Slats can not win. He can only lose.

 

[Lindberg Cheese]

I surmise that Sather tries use the rules as agreed by the league and union to seek advantages where they may be, as one should.

 

[Wolfy*]

It's possible that all 4 players are on vacation or may not be available either. It's not just Sather / Gorton and it's a negotiation. What's the rush? To doll out a bad contract?

They're in the middle of salary negotiations, and you think they're not available? Of course they are, Zuccarello said he's on the phone with his agent every day.

Btw...in case you wonder what he's doing these days, I got this fresh pic from a friend. Party Babes Party

 

[Mikos87]

In fact, most contracts, settlements, plea bargains, etc are concluded at last second because at least one side always thinks, "why do I need to drop my demands, I have time, let's see if I can get more now when I am not up against the wall yet."

Not true, when everyone waits until they get to their BATNA, then there is a rush to find a middle point between the two parties.

Perhaps in your line of work procrastination is the status quo strategy in terms of coming to an agreement, but there are plenty of other businesses and transactions that take place without waiting until the last possible second.

In the majority of the contracts I've dealt with (in the finance and tech industry), a price range is given in the terms. There is a yes or a no with reasons as to why. Amendments are either made, or not, and the parties move on.

Now not all industries work this way, that's for sure, and even within the sport of hockey most teams don't work in the same fashion as others.

But whichever industry it is, procrastination is a sign of laziness and not a strategy. My lawyers and agents are handsomely paid because they perform, not because they sit around till BATNA time. That's why they make the big bucks.

 

[Mikos87]

I think McD was a one-off instance for the Rangers, I guess Lundqvist, so a two off-instance?

I do not have a list or anything but I remember, maybe some are inaccurate as I am going from memory but Carter, Richards, Voracek, Simmonds, Seabrook, Bergeron, Lucic, Krejci, Hjalmarsson, Kopitar, Brown as players who were all signed long term before they had to be.

So perhaps Boston, Chicago, LA and Philly are doing something differently?

That's why their services are retained, and their teams aren't rushing to fill their roster with scraps. Look at Soderberg's contract, Coutourier, Andrew Shaw.

It's called asset management. People who are good at it in real life are well off, and people who wait around till their leverage and options diminish don't even know the meaning of the words.

The same applies to managing a hard cap in hockey. That's why those teams retain their identity and win year in and year out.

 

[Off Sides]

That's why their services are retained, and their teams aren't rushing to fill their roster with scraps. Look at Soderberg's contract, Coutourier, Andrew Shaw.

It's called asset management. People who are good at it in real life are well off, and people who wait around till their leverage and options diminish don't even know the meaning of the words.

The same applies to managing a hard cap in hockey. That's why those teams retain their identity and win year in and year out.

"To imagine playing for a different team is tough for me because I feel so much for the city and for the team," Hjalmarsson said Wednesday after agreeing to a five-year contract extension that will pay him $4.1 million annually starting next season. "Yeah, maybe I could have gotten more somewhere else, but I make a lot of money so I don't really have to think about that too much. I'm just happy over the situation and to be able to stay in Chicago."

http://www.dailyherald.com/article/20130904/sports/709049817/

The whole article is pretty insightful.

 

[frankthefrowner]

What people always forget is zucc and kreider only started to play well mid season. So sure sather should have resigned them sooner but its likely that what ever numbers they were discussing got thrown out the window once they both started to hit there strides.

 

[Beacon]

Not true, when everyone waits until they get to their BATNA, then there is a rush to find a middle point between the two parties.

Perhaps in your line of work procrastination is the status quo strategy in terms of coming to an agreement, but there are plenty of other businesses and transactions that take place without waiting until the last possible second.

In the majority of the contracts I've dealt with (in the finance and tech industry), a price range is given in the terms. There is a yes or a no with reasons as to why. Amendments are either made, or not, and the parties move on.

Now not all industries work this way, that's for sure, and even within the sport of hockey most teams don't work in the same fashion as others.

But whichever industry it is, procrastination is a sign of laziness and not a strategy. My lawyers and agents are handsomely paid because they perform, not because they sit around till BATNA time. That's why they make the big bucks.

It depends on the industry. When everyone around is a professional (e.g., a lawyer negotiating on behalf of corporate officers with similar people on the other side), it's easy to negotiate because 1) the other side doesn't ask for crazy things; 2) the other side isn't overly suspicious and knows what a good offer is vs. what a bad offer is; 3) your client doesn't ask for crazy things; 4) your client knows what a good offer is and doesn't judge it by how low you were negotiating rather than the result achieved.

When you are dealing with regular people (athletes, criminal defendants, first time small business purchasers, etc), it's tough because they don't know what a good settlement looks like and if you come back to them too quickly, their response is, "why didn't you negotiate longer? maybe we'd have gotten more/given less?"

And speaking of which... off to court.

 

[Larrybiv]

Fair, but then we'd also have to question why other players on other teams are willing to sign early and not exploit every inch of their market value.

This is true, but I think especially with the cap going up, most are willing to take their chances on other teams overpaying a bit to so called "steal" a player from that team. With that said, it really comes down to whether or not that player wants to play there for sometimes a little less.

 

[fredrikstad]

What people always forget is zucc and kreider only started to play well mid season. So sure sather should have resigned them sooner but its likely that what ever numbers they were discussing got thrown out the window once they both started to hit there strides.

If mid season is 9 games in, then yes. He began to play well after the scratch, and the whole team played like crap that period.

 

[noexult]

Doesn't seem like there is much contact between and MZA's agent... http://www.hegnar.no/sport_fritid/artikkel510653.ece

Pretty much says: 'There have been no new negotiations on salary with the New York Rangers.'

His agent quotes: "- It's nothing new that I know, says Zucca agent Kevin Skabo to NTB."

 

[Havre]

He's an old school guy in a new school era. Not locking up assets or negotiating deals a year before players hit UFA leaves them scrambling or overpaying when the clock is ticking.

Some of it is stubbornness, some of it is laziness.

Look at CHI locking up Andrew Shaw on a bridge for a 2x2 deal. If Shaw were to sign a deal this off season, it would very well likely be at a higher cap AAV. Not by much since he doesn't have leverage, but some.

How is Tyler Seguin on a deal below a $6M cap hit? Well its because the Bruins negotiated a year before the prior contract expired.

Sometimes these deals don't always pan out, but sometimes they are a necessity in managing the cap and controlling your assets.

LA has Carter and Richards in contracts under $6M AAV because PHI negotiated in advance. Philly had Giroux as a PPG center at a the $3M cap hit for 3 years.

The Rangers could have extended Stepan with term and had a very good center with $3-4M cap hit for years, but they'll have to pony up after this year.

It really is a matter of organizational philosophy and foresight. There are reasons as to why some of those teams that manage their cap that way are stacked with talent (CHI, LA, BOS) or retain their talent. PHI is a turnstyle, but the other teams did it right.

Even the Islanders with Tavares at $5.5M, when he is easily worth $8+ nowadays.

What if Lundqvist was extended with 1 year left on his old deal, does he end up with a $8.5M cap hit, or is it just north of $7?

Does Girardi get $5.5 AAV, or does he get less?

Maybe they are finally smartening up and negotiating with Staal with a year left... but out of all the guys to extend early, its a defensive DMAN who doesn't rack up points. Staal as a UFA could get 6. He'll get at least 5.4 and maybe more.

How about all the players signed to long deals with contracts much bigger than they deserve? Or how about all those great signings done due to opportunities popping up in the last minute?

I'm not saying you should always wait until the "last minute", but it is not like you will get fantastic deals every time just because you sign someone early.

 

[SKS]

Doesn't seem like there is much contact between and MZA's agent... http://www.hegnar.no/sport_fritid/artikkel510653.ece

Pretty much says: 'There have been no new negotiations on salary with the New York Rangers.'

His agent quotes: "- It's nothing new that I know, says Zucca agent Kevin Skabo to NTB."

Skabo is not his agent, but manager, whereas he is contractually represented by Newport and Craig Oster.

 

[Wolfy*]

We should have some news very soon since Zucc's arbitration date is in 10 days. I'd say Slats is a bad GM if he can't manage to lock him up for more than a year.

But as I understand it, the Rangers can walk away if his salary is set to more than 3.5M, then Zucc becomes UFA and can sign elsewhere.

 

[Larrybiv]

If 3.5 is his asking price, they'll chip hi down to 3.25. Just sign him already. Sign him for 3-4 years and be done with it. Arguably our BEST player last season, better than anyone not named Hank.

 

[Fletch]

Not true, when everyone waits until they get to their BATNA, then there is a rush to find a middle point between the two parties.

Perhaps in your line of work procrastination is the status quo strategy in terms of coming to an agreement, but there are plenty of other businesses and transactions that take place without waiting until the last possible second.

In the majority of the contracts I've dealt with (in the finance and tech industry), a price range is given in the terms. There is a yes or a no with reasons as to why. Amendments are either made, or not, and the parties move on.

Now not all industries work this way, that's for sure, and even within the sport of hockey most teams don't work in the same fashion as others.

But whichever industry it is, procrastination is a sign of laziness and not a strategy. My lawyers and agents are handsomely paid because they perform, not because they sit around till BATNA time. That's why they make the big bucks.

Is waiting things out really procrastinating or is it using leverage, whether real or a bluff, to try to get what's best for you, or your company? I'd negotiate fee agreements to raise money for what seemed like forever. You'd have calls and noone would budge. Give it a couple days. Hope one side would get nervous and break. Not sure I'd classify that as procrastination, and it's not until something urgent happens, or something comes along that everyone puts on their skates and just gets it done. In this case, what's Sather's rush? He has the rights. He has holes to fill. He needs to review his options best he can. I'm sure he has a plan, one we would debate all month and with which few would agree. There are deadlines. The GM's only job this Summer, I hope, isn't signing his RFAs. Think it's common to wait.

 

[Wolfy*]

If 3.5 is his asking price, they'll chip hi down to 3.25. Just sign him already. Sign him for 3-4 years and be done with it. Arguably our BEST player last season, better than anyone not named Hank.

Zucc asked for 5 X 4, so they're not even close, and that's why there's no deal yet. His US agent Craig Oster said his market value right now is 4.5M.

And I believe Zucc is a little pissed, he helped the Rangers last season and accepted a very low salary. But that obviously means nothing to Slats, in fact he hopes Zucc will do it again...no way.

 

[Mikos87]

It depends on the industry. When everyone around is a professional (e.g., a lawyer negotiating on behalf of corporate officers with similar people on the other side), it's easy to negotiate because 1) the other side doesn't ask for crazy things; 2) the other side isn't overly suspicious and knows what a good offer is vs. what a bad offer is; 3) your client doesn't ask for crazy things; 4) your client knows what a good offer is and doesn't judge it by how low you were negotiating rather than the result achieved.

When you are dealing with regular people (athletes, criminal defendants, first time small business purchasers, etc), it's tough because they don't know what a good settlement looks like and if you come back to them too quickly, their response is, "why didn't you negotiate longer? maybe we'd have gotten more/given less?"

And speaking of which... off to court.

Yes and to my point earlier, teams in the NHL operate differently. I think there is an inherent advantage to locking guys up before they increase their value, and is a key component in managing the cap. The downside to this is roster and cap flexibility down the line as Philly, Bos, and Chi have all had issues.

 

[Mikos87]

How about all the players signed to long deals with contracts much bigger than they deserve? Or how about all those great signings done due to opportunities popping up in the last minute?

I'm not saying you should always wait until the "last minute", but it is not like you will get fantastic deals every time just because you sign someone early.

It's a matter of control. Teams that do the early extensions are prone to having cap troubles and not having that flexibility yes. But at the same time they are year in and year out contenders because they retain their assets and have the costs controlled for said assets.

IE they aren't filling holes in their line up every year due to free agency. Roster turnover is minimal year to year.

 

[Mikos87]

Is waiting things out really procrastinating or is it using leverage, whether real or a bluff, to try to get what's best for you, or your company? I'd negotiate fee agreements to raise money for what seemed like forever. You'd have calls and noone would budge. Give it a couple days. Hope one side would get nervous and break. Not sure I'd classify that as procrastination, and it's not until something urgent happens, or something comes along that everyone puts on their skates and just gets it done. In this case, what's Sather's rush? He has the rights. He has holes to fill. He needs to review his options best he can. I'm sure he has a plan, one we would debate all month and with which few would agree. There are deadlines. The GM's only job this Summer, I hope, isn't signing his RFAs. Think it's common to wait.

Deals take patience no doubt, but leverage changes hands with patience. I think that Sather waits because he gets more out of guys in their walk years than not, but that performance boost comes at a dear price because other teams just poach the talent away.

If I were the Rangers GM I'd absolutely do the early extensions and make moves accordingly afterwards. Its a strategy, waiting it out is a strategy. Anecdotally speaking I wait out assets to diminish in value to buy low and sell high or repurpose.

If I have a commodity that is or will be in demand, I lock that up asap. In finance the use of options is for this, while leverage is used to wait it out. Hockey is different. Some players are rising stocks whose value with grow, others diminish, that's why one has to lock up the growers early, while waiting out for the bleeders to dry out.

 

[Fletch]

Deals take patience no doubt, but leverage changes hands with patience. I think that Sather waits because he gets more out of guys in their walk years than not, but that performance boost comes at a dear price because other teams just poach the talent away.

If I were the Rangers GM I'd absolutely do the early extensions and make moves accordingly afterwards. Its a strategy, waiting it out is a strategy. Anecdotally speaking I wait out assets to diminish in value to buy low and sell high or repurpose.

If I have a commodity that is or will be in demand, I lock that up asap. In finance the use of options is for this, while leverage is used to wait it out. Hockey is different. Some players are rising stocks whose value with grow, others diminish, that's why one has to lock up the growers early, while waiting out for the bleeders to dry out.

Guess it comes down to is at what do people value the assets, as everyone has a different take on what's valuable. Further, when someone owns rights to those assets, he may act a bit differently. Signing an RFA today, or two weeks ago, may not be any different value-wise than doing so by next week. After arbitration, value does change, and both sides take their chances there, and the Rangers can still enter into negotiations for something long term. I wouldn't expect an RFA's value to do much in the offseason, again, before an arbitrator sets a value. Waiting to sign during the season is the risky time for both sides, and you hope it's riskier for the team because that would mean the player is doing well. But in-season contract extensions aren't too uncommon. I'm guessing a reason for doing it (for the team) is because of cap considerations, and it pushes the pain out the further years. Having said all that, I'm not sure there really should have been a rush to sign the three RFAs going to arbitration.

 

[Mikos87]

Guess it comes down to is at what do people value the assets, as everyone has a different take on what's valuable. Further, when someone owns rights to those assets, he may act a bit differently. Signing an RFA today, or two weeks ago, may not be any different value-wise than doing so by next week. After arbitration, value does change, and both sides take their chances there, and the Rangers can still enter into negotiations for something long term. I wouldn't expect an RFA's value to do much in the offseason, again, before an arbitrator sets a value. Waiting to sign during the season is the risky time for both sides, and you hope it's riskier for the team because that would mean the player is doing well. But in-season contract extensions aren't too uncommon. I'm guessing a reason for doing it (for the team) is because of cap considerations, and it pushes the pain out the further years. Having said all that, I'm not sure there really should have been a rush to sign the three RFAs going to arbitration.

My thought on the 3 are that Zucc should have been locked up because his numbers in arbitration can be really high. Say the Rangers push for 3.5, while his agent argues 6. The AAV will be somewhere in the middle. Say Zucc gets 5 because 60 point scoring wingers are getting 5, and the precedent is there.

Say Brassard goes to arbitration and gets to UFA next year while getting a high AAV this year at 4.8. All viable possibilities because the arbiter will split the difference and base the judgement according to precedents set by the current market value, which does not favor the Rangers.

Kreider is the one that doesn't have the leverage because of his numbers not being all that high, but Zucc can cash in and then cash out as a UFA next year, and so can Brassard.

That's the price of waiting with these two.