HOH Top Goaltenders of All Time Preliminary Discussion Thread

[ContrarianGoaltender]

Still trying to figure out these international goalies. I think Seth Martin has a good case for the top 60 and I'd really like to know more about Vladimir Dzurilla's domestic record.

My difficulty with ranking guys from the '70s and '80s on the list based almost exclusively on international play is that international tournament are very small sample sizes, and even if some of them do have strong international records there are also goalies from the '90s and '00s with strong international records and extensive NHL careers that are in tough competition for the top 60 (guys like Tomas Vokoun or Arturs Irbe) because they are being rated almost exclusively on their NHL achievements.

For example, how does Peter Lindmark even rate ahead of Tommy Salo, a guy that presumably won't be close to making anyone's top 60? I don't see how Salo's international record is any worse than Lindmark's, before even considering his 500+ NHL games, but Salo doesn't really get credit for those NHL seasons in a top 60 context because he was a roughly league average goalie while Lindmark gets points for being rated as the top goalie in Sweden in a much, much shallower talent pool.

Final question: How come no Finnish goalies are being mentioned as candidates? Urpo Ylonen would seem to be roughly equivalent to Leif Holmqvist considering that they were born one year apart and are both seen as the first world class goaltender in their countries (both currently lend their names to the best goalie award in their national leagues). Ylonen was named the best goalie at the world championships in 1970, was three times the Finnish player of the year, was a six-time Finnish All-Star and is in the IIHF Hall of Fame. Other notable goalies in the IIHF HOF: Martin, Holocek, Modry, Konovalenko, Tretiak, Dzurilla, Holmqvist, Irbe, and Jorma Valtonen (another Finnish goalie from the '70s). Notable absences: Lindmark, Kralik.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Say, is there a deadline for the 60-name list submission?

October 1, though we might extend the deadline a little bit if enough people ask us.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Other notable goalies in the IIHF HOF: Martin, Holocek, Modry, Konovalenko, Tretiak, Dzurilla, Holmqvist, Irbe, and Jorma Valtonen (another Finnish goalie from the '70s). Notable absences: Lindmark, Kralik.

That is interesting, but other than Irbe, all those guys came before Lindmark and Kralik, so it could just be a case of the IIHF not getting to them yet, right?

I know Lindmark was one of the earliest entrants into the Swedish HHOF.

 

[Sanf]

My problem with Holecek is that he was almost same age (2 years difference) as Dzurilla, but he got number one place at late as 71 when he was 27. Even in his peak 71 to 78 he lost his number one spot to Dzurilla in 2 of 3 "main events" of that time (72 olympics and Canada cup 76). Also the gap between USSR and CSSR was narrower in 70´s than 60´s. So I have even some problems with Holecek vs. Dzurilla.

Final question: How come no Finnish goalies are being mentioned as candidates?

from lowell sun sebtember 22,1972

THE RESULTS OF the games between our best players on Team Canada and the Russians and Swedes have convinced a lot of us that a good part of our future lies in Europe. Ballard is especially interested in Jorma Valtonen who is considered the finest goaltender in Europe better even than the Soviet Union's Vladimir Tretiak who has been so outstanding against Team Canada

That was after Valtonens career best year at 1972. Best goalie in Izvestia (Finland won USSR first time) ,Finnish All star goalie,Best Finnish player and best goalie of 1972 WHC. He was invited to Maple Leafs training camp. I remember reading from somewhere that the scouts did come to 1973 WHC to make final decisions to what to do with Valtonen. On the game where the scouts were Finland decided to put Leppänen on goal (often forgoten third Finnish goalie from that time).

I could go on and on about Ylönen and Valtonen. Many consider them even today the two best Finnish goalies. At the time they were playing Finland wasn´t a real contender and we needed a miracle game from them to challenge the big four. I think they are very close to Holmqvist and some others mentioned, but still I wouldn´t put them on my list.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

My problem with Holecek is that he was almost same age (2 years difference) as Dzurilla, but he got number one place at late as 71 when he was 27. Even in his peak 71 to 78 he lost his number one spot to Dzurilla in 2 of 3 "main events" of that time (72 olympics and Canada cup 76). Also the gap between USSR and CSSR was narrower in 70´s than 60´s. So I have even some problems with Holecek vs. Dzurilla.
.

Holecek was the starter for every World Championship during that time though, and he was more often than not, the best goalie in the tournament. His record in Czech Golden Stick voting is so much better than Dzurilla's, as well.

From wikipedia's entry on the 1976 Canada Cup (Joe Pelletier's book is cited):

The Czechoslovakian team was predicted to face Canada in the final by most experts as they brought the same team that won the 1976 World Championship a few months prior. Their goaltender, Jiří Holeček, was considered the best in the world outside the NHL.[13]

The impression I had was that Czechoslovakia rotated goalies during the round robin phase, then stuck with Dzurilla in the final because he played so well against Canada in the round robin. But it seems there was more to it than that:

Canadian journalists were surprised to see Vladimir Dzurilla playing in goal for Czechoslovakia in this round-robin clash. Jiri Holecek, named the top netminder at the 1971, 1973, 1975 and 1976 IIHF World Championships, had started all three previous CSSR games. Why wouldn’t coaches Jan Starsi and Karel Gut come back with him?

“We were not surprised because Dzurilla always played better against North American teams than European teams,†said Czech teammate Jiri Bubla. “It was because of his style. Dzurilla kept himself square to the shooter and would skate out to challenge.â€

http://hockeyadventure.com/2007/08/27/heroes-of-the-canada-cup-and-world-cup-of-hockey/

Was Dzurilla better against the Canadian north-south game and Holecek better against the European East-West game? Ken Dryden famously struggled against the East-West game of Europe (something we often ignore around here). I don't know that it should affect that rankings, as the modern game of hockey is now a mix of the two styles.

Dzurillia shut out Team Canada in the round robin game 1-0. He started Game 1 of the finals, was lit up and pulled for Holecek. Holecek started game 2, was lit up and pulled for Dzurilla who finished.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

By the way, someone who sent in a list already asked if he could make a minor change to it. If anyone who already sent in a list wants to make a minor change (add in a name you forgot and push the old #60 off your list, swap out one name for another, etc), you can do so up until the time we put together the final aggregate list.

 

[Sanf]

I tried to find something usefull from Seth Martin from Finnish and Swedish sites. He seem to be a idol or "teacher" for many young goalies (example Ylönen). They started to televise the WHC in early 60´s in here and kids who played in goal at street games wanted to be Seth Martin. So indeed it seems that he had really big impact in here. Only WHC that he participated and wasn´t selected the best goalie was 67 just before he started his short NHL career. There Canada had bad beating from Sweden (6-0) where he did let in couple of really easy ones. Allthough that game is speculated to be a result of Canada losing motivation after 2-1 defeat against USSR.

Also something from Swedish goalies. Most suprising thing about Pekka Lindmark is that he was chosen Swedish All star goalie in 85 when Pelle Linbergh won Vezina trophy!

 

[Michael Farkas]

I did some research on Seth Martin and came away very impressed with his resume. Even though it contained almost no NHL play (the only season, he split time with Glenn Hall and put up similar or better numbers I think). I was going to pick him in the MLD, but was a bit reticent given that there were NHL goalies (some with high AS and Vezina finishes - Burke and Cude, namely) that I thought were a better value...

He's very interesting. I wonder how he would be viewed if he wasn't Canadian...meaning, if he had that international resume and he didn't have access to the NHL...

 

[Sanf]

I know that these stories are bit trivial and off topic but these shows that these international goalies got interest from NHL and even without iron curtain there were various reasons and problems

Swedish Kjell Svenson attented Maple Leafs trainingcamp at 1963 and was offered a contract. That would likely ment that he had to start from farm team and he wasn´t intrested of losing his amateur status and went back to Sweden.
http://www.canada.com/story_print.html?id=e88ddb04-452b-46e5-b88a-bff232b5f848&sponsor=

This story is gathered from newspaperarchives.

After 67-68 Swedish season Leif Holmqvist went to North America and spent the remaining season with Boston Bruins. Bruins was fighting from last playoff spot so they did´t want to risk playing him in games and they couldn´t sent him in farm team to play because its season had ended. They were very impressed about Holmqvist and agreed that he would participate next seasons training camp. He never attented that camp. Swedish hockey federation demanded large amount of money from Bruins for the loss of Holmqvist services. So that never worked out.

Jorma Valtonen had his problems (one I already mentioned). He even went to play one season to Finnish first division because he thought that the team was more understanding in his attempts to leave to professional ice rinks.

Okay and now I shut up about international goalies

 

[MXD]

Is it completely out to lunch to have...

- Jiri Holocek in the Top-15?
- Vezina and Belfour ahead of Tretiak and Smith? (Billy...)
- Miika Kiprusoff just below Tom Barrasso? (in the Top-40)
- For that matter, George Hainsworth just above those two?
- Have Hap Holmes sandiwiched between Dave Kerr and Tim Thomas?
- Have Mike Karakas in my list, while Wild Cude isn't?
- Not putting Riley Hern in my list, for the sole reason I didn't have a clue about where to put him and who to do of his career as a whole? I thinking of something like 20 to 25 ranks below Vezina...

Seriously, I have no confidence at all in my list... at least for some guys. I'm convinced of a few things (Chris Osgood won't belong; Martin Brodeur definitely passing Sawchuck, and Mike Richter at the very bottom)

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Is it completely out to lunch to have...

- Jiri Holocek in the Top-15?
- Vezina and Belfour ahead of Tretiak and Smith? (Billy...)
- Miika Kiprusoff just below Tom Barrasso? (in the Top-40)
- For that matter, George Hainsworth just above those two?
- Have Hap Holmes sandiwiched between Dave Kerr and Tim Thomas?
- Have Mike Karakas in my list, while Wild Cude isn't?
- Not putting Riley Hern in my list, for the sole reason I didn't have a clue about where to put him and who to do of his career as a whole? I thinking of something like 20 to 25 ranks below Vezina...

Seriously, I have no confidence at all in my list... at least for some guys. I'm convinced of a few things (Chris Osgood won't belong; Martin Brodeur definitely passing Sawchuck, and Mike Richter at the very bottom)

Sounds like your list will be a lot like mine

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Is it completely out to lunch to have...

- Jiri Holocek in the Top-15?
- Vezina and Belfour ahead of Tretiak and Smith? (Billy...)
- Miika Kiprusoff just below Tom Barrasso? (in the Top-40)
- For that matter, George Hainsworth just above those two?
- Have Hap Holmes sandiwiched between Dave Kerr and Tim Thomas?
- Have Mike Karakas in my list, while Wild Cude isn't?
- Not putting Riley Hern in my list, for the sole reason I didn't have a clue about where to put him and who to do of his career as a whole? I thinking of something like 20 to 25 ranks below Vezina...

Seriously, I have no confidence at all in my list... at least for some guys. I'm convinced of a few things (Chris Osgood won't belong; Martin Brodeur definitely passing Sawchuck, and Mike Richter at the very bottom)

I have both Vezina and Holocek in my top 15. Belfour between Tretiak and Smith. But I have Kipper rated lower. I initial had him higher, but on closer inspection, I felt he had one great year and then just consistently good, which puts him, IMO, behind players like Beezer and Roach.

 

[vecens24]

Is it completely out to lunch to have...

- Jiri Holocek in the Top-15?
- Vezina and Belfour ahead of Tretiak and Smith? (Billy...)
- Miika Kiprusoff just below Tom Barrasso? (in the Top-40)
- For that matter, George Hainsworth just above those two?
- Have Hap Holmes sandiwiched between Dave Kerr and Tim Thomas?
- Have Mike Karakas in my list, while Wild Cude isn't?
- Not putting Riley Hern in my list, for the sole reason I didn't have a clue about where to put him and who to do of his career as a whole? I thinking of something like 20 to 25 ranks below Vezina...

Seriously, I have no confidence at all in my list... at least for some guys. I'm convinced of a few things (Chris Osgood won't belong; Martin Brodeur definitely passing Sawchuck, and Mike Richter at the very bottom)

I have Holecek lower just because I don't know a ton about him. I'm totally able to be switched on that though.

I have both Belfour and Vezina ahead of Smith but not Tretiak.

Kiprusoff is right outside of my top 40, but I have Hainsworth in between Barrasso and Kipper.

Have Holmes ahead of both Thomas and Kerr. Mike Farkas kind of sold me on Thomas being a little lower than I initially thought he should be. I do still have him comfortably in the top 40.

Don't have Karakas. Do have Hern 30+ ranks below Vezina, but he is on my list. Have him below Moran for what it's worth.

Also I gave Chris Osgood the token final spot on my list, but I think he should not have a chance of making the top 40.


And yeah finally....I have absolutely zero confidence in my list either. I totally agree with that. This is a very difficult list.

 

[MXD]

Will submit my list, at the very worst, on tuesday.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I have Holecek lower just because I don't know a ton about him. I'm totally able to be switched on that though.

.

The upside to Holecek is that he usually outplayed Tretiak both overall in the World Championships and head-to-head. The downside is that the only time he played against Canada (the 1976 Canada Cup), he was overshadowed by teammate Dzurilla.

Frankly, I think you could make an argument that Holecek = Dryden, but even I wouldn't go quite that far.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Incomplete

The upside to Holecek is that he usually outplayed Tretiak both overall in the World Championships and head-to-head. The downside is that the only time he played against Canada (the 1976 Canada Cup), he was overshadowed by teammate Dzurilla.

Frankly, I think you could make an argument that Holecek = Dryden, but even I wouldn't go quite that far.

Being very generous to Jiri Holecek.

Let's do a more complete analysis.

Dzurilla outplayed Holecek in the 1976 Canada Cup, Holecek looking like a semi pro goalie against Canada.Rogie Vachon was vastly superior to both of them, effectively showing that in the Czech league where Dzurilla and Holecek were stars, they were facing weak competition whereas Vachon was never figured out in the NHL by the same players that made Holecek look very weak or figured out Dzurilla within three games.

Same in the Tretiak comparable. Tretiak in years of competition against NHL level competition was never exposed the way Holecek or Dzurilla were. He may have had a weak game or allowed a weak goal but bounced back.

Same for the Dryden comparable. Weak game, weak goal but always bounced back and won regularly.

Both Dzurilla and Holecek may have had success against the Soviets but who was the Czech goalie when the team followed success against the Soviets with losses to pedestrian teams from Sweden and Finland?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Being very generous to Jiri Holecek.

Let's do a more complete analysis.

Dzurilla outplayed Holecek in the 1976 Canada Cup, Holecek looking like a semi pro goalie against Canada.Rogie Vachon was vastly superior to both of them, effectively showing that in the Czech league where Dzurilla and Holecek were stars, they were facing weak competition whereas Vachon was never figured out in the NHL by the same players that made Holecek look very weak or figured out Dzurilla within three games.

I realize that the 1976 Canada Cup was an important tournament, but it was still a single tournament and Holecek played parts of 2 games vs Canada. 2 games out of a career. Vachon and Dzurilla both outplayed Tretiak in that tournament; I doubt many people are going to rank them both over Tretiak based off a single tournament.

Same in the Tretiak comparable. Tretiak in years of competition against NHL level competition was never exposed the way Holecek or Dzurilla were. He may have had a weak game or allowed a weak goal but bounced back.

You're honestly the first person I've ever seen criticize Dzurilla's play in that tournament.

As for Holecek, he was the Czech starter when they won gold at the 1977 World Championships and was named the best goaltender of the 1978 World Championships when Czechoslovakia won the silver, so I'm not sure what you mean by him not bouncing back. In the finals of the 1976 Canada Cup, he played pretty well in relief of Dzurilla in game 1 and was blown out in game 2, then the tournament was over.

Same for the Dryden comparable. Weak game, weak goal but always bounced back and won regularly.

Dryden's weaknesses were regularly exposed against the USSR over a sample of more games than the two games Holecek played against Canada.

Both Dzurilla and Holecek may have had success against the Soviets but who was the Czech goalie when the team followed success against the Soviets with losses to pedestrian teams from Sweden and Finland?

I'm well aware that the Czechs often lost to lesser teams in the 70s even after beating the Soviets. There's a reason the Czechs are considered the third best hockey nation of the period and not the second best. I'm sure there are going to be a lot of NHL goalies on the list who regularly lost to lesser teams in the playoffs.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Tandem

I realize that the 1976 Canada Cup was an important tournament, but it was still a single tournament and Holecek played parts of 2 games vs Canada. 2 games out of a career. Vachon and Dzurilla both outplayed Tretiak in that tournament; I doubt many people are going to rank them both over Tretiak based off a single tournament.



You're honestly the first person I've ever seen criticize Dzurilla's play in that tournament.

As for Holecek, he was the Czech starter when they won gold at the 1977 World Championships and was named the best goaltender of the 1978 World Championships when Czechoslovakia won the silver, so I'm not sure what you mean by him not bouncing back. In the finals of the 1976 Canada Cup, he played pretty well in relief of Dzurilla in game 1 and was blown out in game 2, then the tournament was over.



Dryden's weaknesses were regularly exposed against the USSR over a sample of more games than the two games Holecek played against Canada.



I'm well aware that the Czechs often lost to lesser teams in the 70s even after beating the Soviets. There's a reason the Czechs are considered the third best hockey nation of the period and not the second best. I'm sure there are going to be a lot of NHL goalies on the list who regularly lost to lesser teams in the playoffs.

In Dzurilla and Holecek the Czechs had the best goalie tandem in European hockey for app 10 years, thru 1976. Their styles meshed together very well. However this does not make them great individual stand alone goalies.Over a string of games the weaknesses would surface. They had to be managed and spotted. Both were hot and cold. Holecek played more than two games against Canada when the WHC is included, exhibitions and tours.

Dzurilla was the goalie in the 1-0 Czech round robin win against Canada after Holecek's horrific performance against the USA - 4 goals in the first 10 minutes of the second period. Yanked.

1977 the Czechs won yet gave up 20 goals in 4 games against Canada and the Soviets. Hardly a tribute to their goaltending.

One other consideration about Jiri Holecek - his best WHC tournaments were on home ice - 1972 and 1978 in Prague. Conversely Dryden won in Moscow - 1972 and Tretiak won in Canada 1981 - bounce back after 1980.

1976 Dzurilla was the equivalent of Claude Pronovost. One great game against a great team at the Forum then the downward spiral to his level, looking like a semi pro on Sittler's winner.

Third best team using a goalie tandem translates to consideration of each goalie at the 40-60 level amongst a group of others who have questions to answer.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Third best team using a goalie tandem translates to consideration of each goalie at the 40-60 level amongst a group of others who have questions to answer.

Something must have gotten lost in "translation" - this doesn't follow logically at all.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Tandems

Something must have gotten lost in "translation" - this doesn't follow logically at all.

Looking at some other tandem situations.

Late career Sawchuk / Bower or Hall / Plante where teams managed to get strong results by managing old goalies past their prime.

Young tandems Fuhr / Moog, Edwards / Sauve, Resch / Smith where team success was tied to one stepping up in the playoffs. Happened with Fuhr and Smith for the Oilers and Islanders.

Tandems in tournament situations. Dryden / Tony Esposito 1972 worked in 1972 because in an improvised setting the Soviets had to face two distinct styles plus one caught left, the other caught right. Yet individually Ken Dryden and Tony Esposito were better than as a tandem.

Those goalies that had success outside of tandem situations rank higher than those goalies whose success tended to be tandem contributions and/or related - Edwards, Sauve, Moog, Resch.

 

[VMBM]

You're honestly the first person I've ever seen criticize Dzurilla's play in that tournament.

Well, Dzurilla was terrible in the first period of the first final game.

In the 2nd final, he definitely helped Czechoslovakia to get back into the game after another shock start (0-2 with Holecek in net), but both Bill Barber's equalizer and Sittler's GWG could be partly blamed on Dzurilla - if one is being overly critical. Then again, Rogie Vachon also played probably his worst game of the tournament (which was still pretty good).

As for Holecek, he was the Czech starter when they won gold at the 1977 World Championships and was named the best goaltender of the 1978 World Championships when Czechoslovakia won the silver, so I'm not sure what you mean by him not bouncing back. In the finals of the 1976 Canada Cup, he played pretty well in relief of Dzurilla in game 1 and was blown out in game 2, then the tournament was over.

Holecek started as the #1 goalie in the 1977 WC, but he was not playing well, and Dzurilla was in net for all the final round games. So I wouldn't say that he bounced back then... in the 1978 WC, Holecek gave a top performance - against Canada too (though it was obviously not the best possible Canada).

Dryden's weaknesses were regularly exposed against the USSR over a sample of more games than the two games Holecek played against Canada.

The CSSR-Canada games with Holecek in net (the ones I can come up with right now):

- the 1972 exhibition game just after the Summit Series, a 3-3 tie (he looked pretty weak on the first 2 Team Canada goals but seemed to adjust after that)
- 1974 exhibition game vs. WHA's Team Canada, CSSR won 3-1 (I think Holecek was injured early and Jiri Chra played the rest of the game)
- 1976 Canada Cup, pre-tournament game, Canada won 7-4 (I believe Holecek was pulled in favour of Dzurilla after a few easy goals)
- 1976 Canada Cup, final game 1, Canada won 6-0 (Holecek played 2nd and 3rd periods and let in 2 goals)
- 1976 Canada Cup, final game 2, Canada won 5-4 (Holecek let in 2 early goals and was replaced by Dzurilla)
- 1978 WC, 2 games that CSSR won 5-0 and 3-2

I might have missed some (in the late 1960s, I think Holecek played at least some games for Czechoslovakia).

Holecek's record versus Canada is not very impressive, and I think it's not just the 1976 Canada Cup where he had problems ('mental'? 'physical'? both?)against Canadian/American teams (I believe he had more than just one bad game vs. various Team USAs too). However, the sample size is still quite small...

I'm well aware that the Czechs often lost to lesser teams in the 70s even after beating the Soviets. There's a reason the Czechs are considered the third best hockey nation of the period and not the second best. I'm sure there are going to be a lot of NHL goalies on the list who regularly lost to lesser teams in the playoffs.

I wouldn't say "often", and until 1974, I don't think Sweden was much behind Czechoslovakia. But around that time, Sweden started to lose many of their best players (WHA, NHL), and the national team was weakened as a result.
Anyway, Holecek and CSSR were pretty darn consistent in the 1972, 1973, 1975, 1976 and 1978 World Championships, and thus Holecek has all those Best goalie awards over Tretiak.
In the 1977 WC, no team nor goalie was consistent and all played bad games (I think USSR was the best team in the tournament but, unforgivably, choked twice against Sweden).

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I made the Dryden/Holecek comparison because both had relatively short primes in the 1970s, both were absolutely dominant against their primary competition, both had struggles against a very specific opponent possibly due to style of play (Holecek against Canada, Dryden against the USSR). No, I didn't rank Holecek as high as Dryden, but I think it's a useful point of reference.

Thanks for the long post VMBM. This project really needs more European posters who are familiar with history. Interesting that you say the Czechs won gold in 1977 despite their goaltending, but if Holecek is going to be dinged for playing relatively poorly then, shouldn't Tretiak, as well? The 5-1 gap in "best goaltender awards" in favor of Holecek when they competed head to head is huge. (Tretiak won the award twice after Holecek was done).

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

I can't find the quote, but I know I've read that Czech players went into every tournament with confidence that they could beat the Soviets because they knew their goaltending was better.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Jiri Holecek thought Jiri Holecek was better than Tretiak:

No, Tretiak wasn't anything special. We had at least ten goalies back home who were better than him and the same goes for Sweden. The Russians had such a good team that it wasn't very hard to be in goal for them

From his Pelletier profile: http://internationalhockeylegends.blogspot.com/2007/10/jiri-holecek.html

 

[Sanf]

Holeceks and Dzurillas losses against Finland was mentioned. If I remember right they had only one each in bigger games (of course thats one more than Tretiak but still...) . Other losses from their time was with Nadrchal and Crha.