HOH Top 70 Players of All Time (2009)

[TheDevilMadeMe]

My vote would be that anyone who wants to participate in finishing the list should compile new lists for spots 71-120.

A deadline of something like June 1 would make sense. If FF is back by then, we can send him the lists. If not, we can send to someone else (70s volunteered, right?)

 

[seventieslord]

My vote would be that anyone who wants to participate in finishing the list should compile new lists for spots 71-120.

A deadline of something like June 1 would make sense. If FF is back by then, we can send him the lists. If not, we can send to someone else (70s volunteered, right?)

I am more than willing to run things to make sure this gets done.

But, I believe FF was a believer in running things without participating. I am not. I have to participate. Otherwise there is no fun in it for me.

 

[Ziostilon]

are you guys making a book from this list

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I am more than willing to run things to make sure this gets done.

But, I believe FF was a believer in running things without participating. I am not. I have to participate. Otherwise there is no fun in it for me.

Since transparency seems to be the issue, I would be okay with this, so long as more than one person (you) gets to see the voting data. Not that I don't trust you, but I think the point is to make the process seem unbiased.

 

[seventieslord]

Since transparency seems to be the issue, I would be okay with this, so long as more than one person (you) gets to see the voting data. Not that I don't trust you, but I think the point is to make the process seem unbiased.

Agree.

 

[seventieslord]

Shall we consider FF MIA? It is well beyond late April.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Shall we consider FF MIA? It is well beyond late April.

It's midway through 2010. I think we should just forget about the whole 2009 update and start over with a new one. (Maybe we'll get it right and have Nighbor in the Top 50 this time).

But if people want to continue this from where we left off, I'm game.

 

[seventieslord]

I am game either way. But I would rather honour what we have already started.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

It's midway through 2010. I think we should just forget about the whole 2009 update and start over with a new one. (Maybe we'll get it right and have Nighbor in the Top 50 this time).

But if people want to continue this from where we left off, I'm game.

Who?

 

[steve141]

I think the top 70 list stands well the way it is. Many posters have come and gone since the 2009 list got started. Lets start the 2010 list. I feel each year's list will only get better than the previous year's, since we have so much material and discussion to build on.

 

[seventieslord]

I think the top 70 list stands well the way it is. Many posters have come and gone since the 2009 list got started. Lets start the 2010 list. I feel each year's list will only get better than the previous year's, since we have so much material and discussion to build on.

But for comparison's sake to future lists, we should "go through the motions" and finish this one.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Who?

Frank Nighbor, the centerpiece of the Ottawa Senators Dynasty in the 1920s. If you have Joe Malone on your list, Nighbor should be at least at the same level, and probably above.

Offensively and defensively, he seems like the Bobby Clarke of his era. Difference being that Nighbor was known for his clean play in an era where everyone else was dirty (the Lady Byng was created for Nighbor).

Here's a really detailed profile of Nighbor:

http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=23959895&postcount=22

From the post:

Nighbor's extended absence in '18 gives us an idea of his importance to his team.

Discounting the Montreal Wanderers, who folded early in the season (only played 6 games), The '18 Ottawa Senators had the worst GA and the worst GF in the NHL, and missed the playoffs.

Ottawa without Nighbor in '18
3-9 record
59 GF, 73 GA

Ottawa with Nighbor in '18
5-5 record
43 GF, 40 GA

Lalonde's goals vs Ottawa with Nighbor: 1 game, 1g
Lalonde's goals vs Ottawa without Nighbor: 5 games, 8g

Malone's goals vs Ottawa with Nighbor: 3 games, 1g
Malone's goals vs Ottawa without Nighbor: 7 games, 23g

Malone's '18 season has become legendary. He scored 44g in 22 games, the highest goals per game pace in NHL history. But even more amazing is that he scored over half of those goals in 7 games against Ottawa when Nighbor was out of the lineup.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Frank Nighbor, the centerpiece of the Ottawa Senators Dynasty in the 1920s. If you have Joe Malone on your list, Nighbor should be at least at the same level, and probably above.

Offensively and defensively, he seems like the Bobby Clarke of his era. Difference being that Nighbor was known for his clean play in an era where everyone else was dirty (the Lady Byng was created for Nighbor).

Here's a really detailed profile of Nighbor:

http://hfboards.com/showpost.php?p=23959895&postcount=22

From the post:

I was just kidding around.

But I knew nothing about Frank Nighbor before I got on the History site. Now I'm well aware of his legacy, but I still wouldn't put him in the top 50.

 

[jkrx]

What are the criteria on this list? It seems that NHL plays a much bigger role than anything else which dumps Hasek, Kharlamov, Fetisov, Tretiak and Mihkailov pretty far down. I would say however (to the lists defense) that its incredibly hard to rank players (within all positions) through all times as everyone has an opinion about every player.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I was just kidding around.

But I knew nothing about Frank Nighbor before I got on the History site. Now I'm well aware of his legacy, but I still wouldn't put him in the top 50.

Yeah, I didn't answer for a few days because I thought it was probably a joke. But anyway, I figured I'd use the opportunity to post some things on Nighbor, including linking to nik jr's excellent profile of him.

It really appears that Nighbor was thought of as closer to Newsy Lalonde during his era than he was to Joe Malone.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

I was just kidding around.

But I knew nothing about Frank Nighbor before I got on the History site. Now I'm well aware of his legacy, but I still wouldn't put him in the top 50.

I find it difficult to rank Nighbor much below Clarke and/or Schmidt. Three pretty similar players there as far as elite defensive centermen who were also threats to win a scoring title. All three could be called the league's best player at their respective peaks (well, Clarke had Orr ahead of him, but exempting arguably the best player ever, he fits the bill). I think I had all three in the 25-40 range last time.

 

[unknown33]

What are the criteria on this list? It seems that NHL plays a much bigger role than anything else which dumps Hasek,

Hasek is behind Morenz, because of one single vote ranking him 25th.

#22
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=669824

 

[seventieslord]

I was just kidding around.

But I knew nothing about Frank Nighbor before I got on the History site. Now I'm well aware of his legacy, but I still wouldn't put him in the top 50.

Well, he definitely belongs there, so....

What are the criteria on this list? It seems that NHL plays a much bigger role than anything else which dumps Hasek, Kharlamov, Fetisov, Tretiak and Mihkailov pretty far down. I would say however (to the lists defense) that its incredibly hard to rank players (within all positions) through all times as everyone has an opinion about every player.

I don't think NHL plays a bigger role than it should. With any player who didn't play against the very best on a regular basis, we have to use what reference points we have to determine what kind of legacy they have.

Hasek - firmly in the top-3 goalies of all-time. What more do you want there?

Kharlamov - 3rd-best LW ever. How much higher should he be?

Tretiak - 8th among goalies despite rarely playing the best competition in the world. Unseating the top-7 is extremely difficult. How much higher should he be?

Mikhailov - One of my all-time favourites. How would he have done in the NHL? Well, we placed him well above a guy like Jarome Iginla (who has a similar style, and, in theory, was maybe 120th all-time though the list didn't go that far). Iginla was a 3-time Hart finalist and two-time NHL goal leader with a scoring title. He was also the playoff scoring leader once. We determined Mikhailov to be better than that despite playing only a handful of games against the very best. That's awesome! We definitely gave him all the credit we could.

Fetisov - I pushed for him to be a bit higher myself. But really, what's he going to do, break into the top-6 defensemen of all-time? Impossible... he's not Denis Potvin.

Hasek is behind Morenz, because of one single vote ranking him 25th.

#22
http://hfboards.com/showthread.php?t=669824

Wonder who that was.... what a boondoggle!!!

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I find it difficult to rank Nighbor much below Clarke and/or Schmidt. Three pretty similar players there as far as elite defensive centermen who were also threats to win a scoring title. All three could be called the league's best player at their respective peaks (well, Clarke had Orr ahead of him, but exempting arguably the best player ever, he fits the bill). I think I had all three in the 25-40 range last time.

One thing to remember, though, is that Nighbor played on some really loaded teams in Ottawa.

The year he won the Hart he was only third on his team in scoring and only a point ahead of Dman King Clancy. That team also had Clint Benedict in goal and Lionel Hitchman & Georges Boucher on D. Cy Dennehy led the league in goals and points that season.

 

[seventieslord]

One thing to remember, though, is that Nighbor played on some really loaded teams in Ottawa.

The year he won the Hart he was only third on his team in scoring and only a point ahead of Dman King Clancy. That team also had Clint Benedict in goal and Lionel Hitchman & Georges Boucher on D. Cy Dennehy led the league in goals and points that season.

You say this like it is a bad thing.

Nighbor was so valuable defensively that despite his point total, he won the Hart... think about that.

Based on the sheer voluume and diversity of comments in print about his defense, he has a case for best defensive forward of alltime. Gainey rode that title (which I do not agree with) to an almost-spot on our first top-100. Nighbor's as good as Gainey defensively and about as dominant offensively as clarke and Schmidt.

(In such small leagues during Nighbor's time, you could say all teams were stacked.)

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

You say this like it is a bad thing.

Nighbor was so valuable defensively that despite his point total, he won the Hart... think about that.

Based on the sheer voluume and diversity of comments in print about his defense, he has a case for best defensive forward of alltime. Gainey rode that title (which I do not agree with) to an almost-spot on our first top-100. Nighbor's as good as Gainey defensively and about as dominant offensively as clarke and Schmidt.

(In such small leagues during Nighbor's time, you could say all teams were stacked.)

Obviously voting was done a little differently in those days.

I find it somewhat odd that Nighbor's linemate Dennehy had less PIM both years Nighbor won the Lady Bing. In 25-26 Nighbor had 40 minutes to Dennehy's 18. Maybe being good looking was factor in voting then.

 

[jkrx]

I don't think NHL plays a bigger role than it should. With any player who didn't play against the very best on a regular basis, we have to use what reference points we have to determine what kind of legacy they have.

Hasek - firmly in the top-3 goalies of all-time. What more do you want there?

Kharlamov - 3rd-best LW ever. How much higher should he be?

Tretiak - 8th among goalies despite rarely playing the best competition in the world. Unseating the top-7 is extremely difficult. How much higher should he be?

Mikhailov - One of my all-time favourites. How would he have done in the NHL? Well, we placed him well above a guy like Jarome Iginla (who has a similar style, and, in theory, was maybe 120th all-time though the list didn't go that far). Iginla was a 3-time Hart finalist and two-time NHL goal leader with a scoring title. He was also the playoff scoring leader once. We determined Mikhailov to be better than that despite playing only a handful of games against the very best. That's awesome! We definitely gave him all the credit we could.

Fetisov - I pushed for him to be a bit higher myself. But really, what's he going to do, break into the top-6 defensemen of all-time? Impossible... he's not Denis Potvin.

I didn't look at it as position ranking and if you use that perspective then yes I agree with their current rankings more or less. In my opinion Hasek is a top10 player while Mihkailov is a top50 (in my opinion). Kharlamov is a top 20 for sure. Tretiak proved himself many times against the best and is (in my opinion) better than for example Brodeur. I dont know if I were actually going to name Fetisov (my memory isnt the best anymore). I think #33 fits him.

 

[SeanVT395]

Bobby Clarke ranked higher than Mark Messier? Today is indeed a great day.

 

[Hardyvan123]

I just found these threads and became a member, very interesting points and I hope to contribute a lot in the future in the discussions.

One general point though that I don't really agree with is to take just statistics and awards and all star selections without the context of the times.

Plain and simple it is much easier to be a MVP or all star in a 6 team league than the current 30 team league.

Current players like Crosby, AO and the like will never be able to dominate in the way that past players did for this reason and another big reason which often get overlooked as well which is the gap between the top players in the league and the bottom players.

In the past which I can remember (I'm in my early 40's) the NHL expanded from 6 to 12 to 14 then 16 teams, which at the end the WHA emerged greatly diluting the overall talent level in the NHL.

The top players ,like Orr where still the top players but they looked better than they really where due to this dilution of the overall league.

I'm pretty sure about half the guys on here are flipping out since Orr is an icon and he was the best player of his era no doubt but I look forward to discussions and investigation of this great topic with everyone.

 

[seventieslord]

One general point though that I don't really agree with is to take just statistics and awards and all star selections without the context of the times.

It may be easier to be a top-15 scorer in a smaller league but it wasn't any easier to be the MVP. There were just a few seriously dominant players.