HOH Top 60 Goaltenders of All Time (2024 Edition) - Round 2, Vote 8

[Dr John Carlson]

Procedure

• In this vote, you will be presented with 14 players based on their ranking in the Round 1 aggregate list
• Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
• You will submit ten names in a ranked order, #1 through #10, without ties via PM to both @Dr John Carlson and @Professor What. That means four names out of these fourteen will be left unranked on your ballot.
• Use the same private message thread every week rather than starting a new PM
• Results of this vote will be posted after each voting cycle, but the individual ballots themselves will remain secret until the completion of this project
• The top 5 players will be added to the final list (unless a very large break exists at the spot between 4&5 (or 3&4!), or the break between 5&6 is minimal)
• Lists of players eligible for voting will grow as the project continues
• Voting threads will continue until we have added 60 names to the list, for a total of 12 voting threads

Eligible Voters

• Ballots from voters who have submitted an approved Round 1 ranking of 80 goaltenders (which was used to shape the aggregate list) will have their votes tabulated in the final ranking
• These voters are: @nabby12, @overpass, @frisco, @Professor What, @DN28, @jigglysquishy, @tony d, @rmartin65, @Vilica, @bobholly39, @The Pale King, @blogofmike, @Dr John Carlson, @MXD, @Michael Farkas, @ContrarianGoaltender, @VanIslander, @seventieslord, @Weztex

Guidelines

• Respect each other. No horseplay or sophistry!
• Please refrain from excessive use of the 'laughing' reaction to indicate disagreement / hold grudges
• Stay on topic and don't get caught up in talking about non-eligible players
• Participate, but retain an open mind throughout the discussion
• Do not speculate who cast any particular ballot. Do not make judgments about the mindset of whoever cast that particular ballot. All individual ballots will be revealed at the end of the project
• Anybody may participate in the discussion, whether they submitted a list or not

House Rules

• Any attempts to derail a discussion thread with disrespect to old-time hockey will be met with frontier justice
• Take a drink when someone mentions the number of hockey registrations in a given era
• Finish your drink when someone mentions that wins are a team stat

The actual voting period will open up on Friday, December 6th at midnight and continue through Sunday, December 8th at 11:59 PM Eastern time. I will release the results of the vote the morning of Monday, December 9th, at which point the next voting thread will begin.


Vote 8 Candidates

• Tom Barrasso
• Sergei Bobrovsky
• Alec Connell
• Marc-Andre Fleury
• Ed Giacomin
• Dave Kerr
• Percy LeSueur
• Mike Liut
• Tuukka Rask
• Chuck Rayner
• Pekka Rinne
• Jonathan Quick
• Rogie Vachon
• Gump Worsley

Click to read more...

 

[MXD]

... So there was a point to my post scriptum on Dave Kerr after all, haha!

Kerr, Rinne and Liut start this round in the upper half for me, possibly even upper half scoring positions.

Rask may just be the weakest candidate that could be up for voting in whole process, depending on how things go.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I like Dave Kerr.

 

[blogofmike]

Looking at the votes, now might be the time to ask how much mileage Percy LeSueur gets out of having 3 solid performances in March 1906.

We should probably talk about Vachon vs Worsley.

I like playoff performers so Liut is an 80s guy I'm less likely to promote. For the MVP-ish year guys I would have Liut above a Chuck Rayner though.

Pekka Rinne has solid playoff stats but always felt like he was a house of cards and he spent a lot of time behind defense-first teams. Rask also played behind sound defensive teams, but I feel he answered the bell more often and wasn't as easy an out.

I don't mean to be disrespectful, but I like Dave Kerr.

I am shocked and offended.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Vezina Shares

Stolen from @TheDevilMadeMe 's methodology and updated to 2024

There are 22 goalies with a 1.0 share or higher

	Goalie	Times	Share
1	Martin Brodeur	15	5.40
2	Dominik Hasek	11	4.76
3	Patrick Roy	17	4.63
4	Connor Hellebucyk	5	2.63
5	Ed Belfour	11	2.51
6	Pekka Rinne	5	2.12
7	Andrei Vasilevsky	6	2.05
8	Tom Barrasso	7	1.98
9	Sergei Bobrovsky	6	1.97
10	Henrik Lundqvist	10	1.93
11	Grant Fuhr	8	1.84
12	Braden Holtby	3	1.68
13	Roberto Luongo	9	1.66
14	Tim Thomas	3	1.55
15	John Vanbiesbrouck	9	1.52
16	Tuukka Rask	5	1.50
17	Miikka Kiprusoff	7	1.44
18	Carey Price	7	1.40
19	Evgeni Nabokov	6	1.23
20	Curtis Joseph	8	1.02
21	Pete Peeters	3	1.02
22	Igor Shesterkin	3	1.02

Bolded are eligible. Italicized are inducted

Fleury is at 0.86, Quick at 0.75.

Times top 3
Barrasso - 5 (1,2,2,2,3)
Rinne - 4 (1,2,2,3)
Bobrovsky - 3 (1,1,3)
Liut - 2 (1,2)
Rask - 2 (1,2)
Quick - 2 (2,3)
Fleury 1 - (1)


All-Star Team Finishes (1945 onwards)

Player	First	Second	Third	Total	Weighted Total
Ed Giacomin	1​	3​	0​	4​	14​
Tom Barrasso	1​	2​	1​	4​	12​
Sergei Bobrovsky	2​	0​	1​	3​	11​
Pekka Rinne	1​	1​	2​	4​	10​
Mike Liut	1​	1​	1​	3​	9​
Chuck Rayner	0​	3​	0​	3​	9​
Gump Worsley	1​	1​	0​	2​	8​
Tuukka Rask	1​	1​	0​	2​	8​
Rogatien Vachon	0​	2​	0​	2​	6​
Jonathan Quick	0​	1​	1​	2​	4​
Marc-Andre Fleury	0​	1​	0​	1​	3​

 

[blogofmike]

All-Star Team Finishes (1945 onwards)

Player	First	Second	Third	Total	Weighted Total
Ed Giacomin	1​	3​	0​	4​	14​
Tom Barrasso	1​	2​	1​	4​	12​
Sergei Bobrovsky	2​	0​	1​	3​	11​
Pekka Rinne	1​	1​	2​	4​	10​
Mike Liut	1​	1​	1​	3​	9​
Chuck Rayner	0​	3​	0​	3​	9​
Gump Worsley	1​	1​	0​	2​	8​
Tuukka Rask	1​	1​	0​	2​	8​
Rogatien Vachon	0​	2​	0​	2​	6​
Jonathan Quick	0​	1​	1​	2​	4​
Marc-Andre Fleury	0​	1​	0​	1​	3​

Funny thing about the awards voting is that Quick starts off high on my ballot this round while Giacomin is potentially an NR again.

Johnjm22 over on the King's board very kindly dug up the clip of Quick I mentioned upthread. Check out his mentality/mindset after giving up seven goals in the game 2 loss in 2014. How critical do you think this was in the infamous reverse sweep? Starts around the :46 second mark.

Quick may be the top name for me this round, but this is soft, participant ribbon nonsense that makes Quick look like a girly man.

You want a real man? A real man punches an armed mobster in his face to get a goal disallowed. Alec Connell was a REAL MAN.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Again, if Giacomin is there, Cheevers should be too.

Liut got a lot of credit for being a leader in the room, as opposed to being the usual oddball that goalies were. Does that help him in any way here?

 

[jigglysquishy]

Every Dave Kerr playoff game

1931 Playoffs
Rangers beat Maroons 5-1 in a two-game total-goal series

No relevant comments on either goalie. Bill Cook star of the show

Rangers win 3-0 to win series 8-1

Saskatoon Star-Phoenix · ‎Mar 27, 1931

Rangers kept the play well behind the Maroon defense line and skirmishes dangerously around Kerr, who made some pretty saves.

1933 Playoffs
Red Wings beat the Maroons 2-0 in a two-game total-goal series

The Montreal Gazette · ‎Mar 27, 1933

Larry Aurie threatened twice on quick succession at the beginning of the third period, and Kerr saved both in brilliant fashion.

Kerr had a total of 30 shots to stop. Roach had but 26, but many of the shots on the Detroit nets were from close in.

Red Wings win 3-2 to win series 5-2

No relevant comments


1934 Playoffs
Maroons and Rangers tie 0-0 in a two-game total-goal series
Shots: Maroons 26 Rangers 19

No relevant comments

Maroons win 2-1

No relevant comments



Black Hawks win 3-0 in a two-game total-goal series
Shots: Black Hawks 32 Maroons 24

No relevant comments. Media is all praises for Charlie Gardiner


Black Hawks win 3-2 to win series 6-2
Shots: Maroons 28 Black Hawks 41

The Border Cities Star · ‎Apr 2, 1934

The Hawks scored while Wentworth was serving time and bombarded Goalie Dave Kerr steadily on the other occasions when they had the extra man.

1935 Playoffs
Rangers beat Canadiens 2-1 in a two-game total-goal series
Shots: Rangers 44 Canadiens 31

No relevant comments.

Rangers and Canadiens tie 4-4. Rangers win series 6-5
Shots: Rangers 30 Canadiens 51

The Montreal Gazette · ‎Mar 27, 1935

Dave Kerr is Barrier

Kerr, the former Maroon who beat Rangers in the play-offs last spring, had 21 more shots to cope with than Wilfie Cude in the Habitants' net as Canadiens, after a slow start, kept coming faster and faster as the game progressed.

In the second period, Armand Mondou had Dave at his mercy and let go with one of his deadly slap-shots from point-blank range. Kerr amazingly picked the terrific drive off with his hand.

Sharing the spot-light with Kerr was the Ranger star, Cecil Dillon.

With that Canadiens' and their supporters' hopes rose sky-high. But Kerr, with herculean work and Dame Fortune's help, managed to bring the Habitants back to earth as he held them without further score until the final bell released him from his onerous task.

Maroons (with Connell) beat Rangers (with Kerr) 2-1 in a two-game total-goal series
Shots: Rangers 39 Maroons 26

The Montreal Gazette · ‎Mar 29, 1935

The score was not greater was mainly due to the expert goal tending of Davie Kerr and considerable luck as well. If Kerr thought that some of those games last year behind Maroons' then shaky defence were just a bad dream, tonight's contest, must have been a nightmare. Once Davie got so panicky, when Northcott skated behind his goal for a loose puck, that Davie found himself right out of the cage in trying to check Baldy himself.

Maroons and Rangers tie 3-3. Maroons win series 5-4

The Leader-Post · ‎Apr 1, 1935

Scribes Blaming Davie Kerr for Rangers' Defeat

Davie Kerr, trim goalie of New York Rangers, who could have got away with murder a few weeks ago when he was regarded as the spark that shot the blueshirts into a fading position in the NHL, was hailed into the "court of public opinion" Sunday, charged with ruining Rangers' Stanley cup hopes.

Kerr was obsessed by a roving disposition and that his failure to stay in his net caused Rangers to fall before Montreal.

Johnny Gottselig said "You know, this Kerr is the most unorthodox goalie I ever played against. He comes out of his goal on every shot to close up the angle. When you beat he always looks foolish, but I'd say it was his goaltending that put the Rangers in there. They are weak on defence and I can't figure how they ever played 13 games without a loss for the Cooks are all washed up. Boucher, though, played great hockey."

1937 Playoffs
Rangers beat Leafs 3-0
Shots: Rangers 17 Leafs 45

Surprisingly, no relevant comments


Rangers win 2-1 in OT

No relevant comments


Rangers beat Maroons 1-0

Saskatoon Star-Phoenix · ‎Apr 2, 1937

Dave Kerr Brilliant in Nets

Only brilliant work by Goalkeeper Davie Kerr, an outstanding hero of the blue shirt triumph, prevented Maroons from gaining an early and substantial lead

Rangers beat Maroons 4-0

Saskatoon Star-Phoenix · ‎Apr 5, 1937

Kerr was brilliant when he needed to be.

The phenomenal showing the Rangers goalie, Dave Kerr, has made in the play-offs. "When that boy is hot, he's on fire, and he's apparently flaming right now," Detroit manager Jack Adams said.

Rangers beat Red Wings 5-1 in best of 5 Stanley Cup final
Shots: Rangers 35 Red Wings 30
Rangers 1 Red Wings 0

Saskatoon Star-Phoenix · ‎Apr 7, 1937

"The Rangers," Jack Adams said, "were hot as pepper. Our boys certainly weren't anywhere near their stride. We should have pulled even in that one-sided second period, but Kerr was just too good. On the night's play, the better team won, but we're far from being down."

Red Wings win 4-2
Rangers 1 Red Wings 1

Saskatoon Star-Phoenix · ‎Apr 9, 1937

Wings fired three goals in 4 1/2 minutes past Dave Kerr, sensational New York netminder, in the first period. Kerr had been scored on but twice in 313 minutes of playoff hockey before tonight's game.

Rangers win 1-0
Rangers 2 Red Wings 1

The Owosso Argus-Press · ‎Apr 12, 1937

Kerr Again Stars

Dave Kerr, the great Ranger goalie, scored his fourth shutout in seven playoff games last night. Except for the second game of the Stanley Cup series, which Detroit won 4 to 2, Kerr has been supreme master of net play.

Red Wings win 1-0
Rangers 2 Red Wings 2

Saskatoon Star-Phoenix · ‎Apr 14, 1937

[Wings] outskating the Rangers, only to be checked by the sensational work of Dave Kerr in the New York nets.

Kerr never had a chance as the puck streaked past him to bite into the post.

Red Wings win 3-0
Rangers 2 Red Wings 3

Painesville Telegraph · ‎Apr 16, 1937

Shooting the works, the Red Wings poured a five-man attack against the Ranger defence, harassing Goalie Dave Kerr with several close shots

His first Cup run and he is outstanding. Easily the most praised Rangers across the playoffs, with Boucher and Colville being the only other players generally spoken of positively. The Rangers were underdogs and were one game away from the Cup, mostly on the back of Kerr.


1938 Playoffs
Americans beat Rangers 2-1 in double OT in a best-of-three series
Rangers 0 Americans 1

No relevant comments

Rangers beat Americans 4-3
Rangers 1 Americans 1

No relevant comments

Americans win 3-2 in quadruple OT
Rangers 1 Americans 2

No relevant comments. Media coverage for a NY vs NY playoff game is pretty poor, especially with a quadruple OT finisher.


1939 Playoffs
Rangers get a bye to the second round

Rangers beat Bruins 2-1 in double OT

No relevant comments. Bert Gardner plays the rest of the series after Kerr hurt his shoulder.


1940 Playoffs
Rangers beat Bruins 4-0
Shots: Rangers 25 Bruins 16
Rangers 1 Bruins 0

Meriden Record · ‎Mar 20, 1940

Only four times in the 60 minutes of play, punctuated with six penalties to each club, did the Bruins come close and then Dave Kerr the Ranger goal was master of the situation

Bruins win 4-2
Rangers 1 Bruins 1

The Leader-Post · ‎Mar 22, 1940

After being held scoreless for more than 157 minutes by Dave Kerr, Boston Bruins drove four goals past that all-star goalei in about 35 minutes.

Bruins win 4-3
Rangers 1 Bruins 2

No relevant comments

Rangers win 1-0
Rangers 2 Bruins 2

The Windsor Daily Star · ‎Mar 27, 1940

The Bruins struck their hardest blows in the first period when Herbie Cain and Art Jackson smashed twice at Dave Kerr, the all-star goalie who scored his 10th shutout of the season, from close-in.

Rangers win 1-0
Rangers 3 Bruins 2

Meriden Record · ‎Mar 29, 1940

Rangers gave Goalie Dave Kerr his second consecutive playoff shutout and his third in this best-four-out-of-seven The Bruins have not scored against Kerr since the third game here.

Rangers win 4-1
Rangers 4 Bruins 2

Lewiston Evening Journal · ‎Apr 1, 1940

Of the big Ranger squad, only Davey Kerr, the little goalie, has been recognized as a star. There's no forward on the squad with a reputation such as Howie Morenz, Bill Cook, Nels Stewart, Chuck Conacher and even older and more famous stars of the past. The defensemen haven't had the publicity granted Ching Johnson, Eddie Shore, or Lionel Conacher. And Kerr isn't being classed with Chuck Gardiner or Georges Vezina.

Rangers win 2-1 in OT in Cup Final
Rangers 1 Leafs 0

The Montreal Gazette · ‎Apr 3, 1940

Kerr's great save set the stage for the passing bout between Patrick and Pike, and the latter's winning shot.

Rangers win 6-2
Rangers 2 Leafs 0

The Lewiston Daily Sun · ‎Apr 4, 1940

The Leafs fired home the first two goals of the game, but couldn't get another tally after the first six minutes as Davey Kerr, the ranger net-minder, turned in a great performance.

Leafs win 2-1
Rangers 2 Leafs 1

No relevant comments

Leafs win 3-0
Rangers 2 Leafs 2

No relevant comments

Rangers win 2-1 in double OT
Rangers 3 Leafs 2

The Calgary Herald · ‎Apr 12, 1940

Kerr In Form

For all their margin on the attack, the Leafs couldn't penetrate the armour of Goalie Dave Kerr with a shot of their own making.

Rangers win 3-2 in OT
Rangers 4 Leafs 2

No relevant comments

A weird playoff run. On the surface, Kerr plays well and has tremendous stats. But the game-to-game praise just isn't there. For someone who had so many shutouts and 1 goal games, I was expecting more media praise towards Kerr in a Cup win.


1941 Playoffs
Red Wings beat Rangers 2-1 in OT in a best-of-three series

No relevant comments

Rangers win 3-1

No relevant comments

Red Wings win 3-2 to win series

Saskatoon Star-Phoenix · ‎Mar 26, 1941

Kerr took the wear and tear of the evening, as far as saves were concerned, with 31 to his credit. Mowers accounted for 19.

Overall, there's not much there outside a truly all-time great run in 1937. The Maroons are awful defensively the first half of his career. He gets slim praise in his non-1937 Rangers runs. Despite putting up good numbers in the 1940 Cup win, he just doesn't get the praise.

All the props for 1937, but outside that he doesn't get the media praise.

 

[overpass]

I'll follow up on a post I made in the preliminary round about Mike Liut.

From 1979-80 through 1987-88, Liut was a real workhorse compared to other goalies in the league. He played in 535 regular season games, 73 more than second place Greg Millen, and 134 more than third place Pete Peeters.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Liut was also relatively unsuccessful in the playoffs during this time, with a 25-27 record.

Liut had a very large home/road split in this time. His save percentage was 18 points higher at home, and his GAA was lower by almost a goal at home (0.92). These splits were the largest of any of the top 15 goalies in GP from 1979-80 to 1987-88. The other goalie who had similar splits? Fellow workhorse Greg Millen.

Liut and Millen also shared another unusual pattern. Their save percentage was much worse with 0 days of rest.

NHL Stats

The official source for NHL Stats including skaters, goalies, teams stats and more.

www.nhl.com

Based on this information, I think Liut would have been better off with a lighter workload. He played a higher workload than any other goalie, and he performed relatively poorly in road games and with 0 days of rest. And I would say the same about Greg Millen.

Here are some tables breaking down Liut's performance - again from 1979-80 to 1987-88 - by home/road and days of rest, in the regular season and playoffs.

Goalie	RS/PO	H/R	Days of Rest	W	L	T	W%	GAA	SV%	SA/60
Mike Liut	Regular season	Home	0	8​	9​	2​	0.474​	4.25​	0.852​	28.7​
Mike Liut	Regular season	Home	1	44​	19​	7​	0.679​	3.01​	0.895​	28.7​
Mike Liut	Regular season	Home	2	56​	34​	16​	0.604​	2.80​	0.901​	28.2​
Mike Liut	Regular season	Home	3	23​	15​	4​	0.595​	3.20​	0.889​	28.7​
Mike Liut	Regular season	Home	4+	19​	11​	4​	0.618​	3.09​	0.894​	29.2​
Mike Liut	Regular season	Home	All	150​	88​	33​	0.614​	3.06​	0.893​	28.6​

Goalie	RS/PO	H/R	Days of Rest	W	L	T	W%	GAA	SV%	SA/60
Mike Liut	Regular season	Road	0	23​	28​	9​	0.458​	4.15​	0.871​	32.2​
Mike Liut	Regular season	Road	1	20​	32​	8​	0.400​	3.93​	0.875​	31.5​
Mike Liut	Regular season	Road	2	19​	30​	7​	0.402​	4.11​	0.872​	32.1​
Mike Liut	Regular season	Road	3	12​	18​	5​	0.414​	3.87​	0.878​	31.6​
Mike Liut	Regular season	Road	4+	14​	17​	3​	0.456​	3.64​	0.886​	32.1​
Mike Liut	Regular season	Road	All	88​	125​	32​	0.424​	3.98​	0.875​	31.9​

Goalie	RS/PO	H/R	Days of Rest	W	L	T	W%	GAA	SV%	SA/60
Mike Liut	Playoff	Home	0	4​	5​	0​	0.444​	3.91​	0.875​	31.1​
Mike Liut	Playoff	Home	1	8​	3​	0​	0.727​	2.74​	0.908​	29.8​
Mike Liut	Playoff	Home	2+	4​	2​	0​	0.667​	2.50​	0.909​	27.3​
Mike Liut	Playoff	Home	All	16​	10​	0​	0.615​	3.08​	0.896​	29.7​

Goalie	RS/PO	H/R	Days of Rest	W	L	T	W%	GAA	SV%	SA/60
Mike Liut	Playoff	Road	0	3​	6​	0​	0.333​	4.02​	0.882​	34.1​
Mike Liut	Playoff	Road	1	2​	10​	0​	0.167​	4.11​	0.863​	30.0​
Mike Liut	Playoff	Road	2+	4​	1​	0​	0.800​	2.11​	0.940​	34.9​
Mike Liut	Playoff	Road	All	9​	17​	0​	0.346​	3.66​	0.887​	32.4​

The takeaway? At home, Liut struggled with 0 days of rest and was much better with 1 or more day of rest. On the road, Liut was worse with 0 or 1 day of rest and performed better with more days of rest.

Liut's teams would have been better off getting a better backup to take some of those back to back games and lighten his load. Liut was also unfortunate to play in an era with more back to back playoff games than any other era, causing him to have played more playoff games with 0 days of rest than any other goalie in history!

But there's one playoff trend I have to point out that doesn't reflect so well on Mike Liut. One reason that he performed better with more days of rest in the playoffs is that he was particularly good in Game 1 of a series, and his performance dropped off in subsequent games. Of course it's valuable to play well in Game 1! But I wonder if Liut's drop in performance from Game 2 on is because he didn't play as well once opposing shooters got a read on him.

Goalie	RS/PO	Game#	W	L	T	GA	GAA	SV%	SA/60
Mike Liut	Playoff	1	8​	3​	0​	29​	2.43​	0.924​	31.9​
Mike Liut	Playoff	2	4​	8​	0​	49​	4.01​	0.869​	30.7​
Mike Liut	Playoff	3	6​	4​	0​	40​	3.90​	0.867​	29.3​
Mike Liut	Playoff	4	3​	5​	0​	26​	3.19​	0.909​	34.9​
Mike Liut	Playoff	5	3​	3​	0​	21​	3.26​	0.889​	29.3​
Mike Liut	Playoff	6	1​	3​	0​	14​	3.43​	0.876​	27.7​
Mike Liut	Playoff	7	0​	1​	0​	4​	3.64​	0.907​	39.1​
Mike Liut	Playoff	2-7	17​	24​	0​	154​	3.64​	0.882​	30.9​

 

[blogofmike]

1931 Playoffs
Rangers beat Maroons 5-1 in a two-game total-goal series

No relevant comments on either goalie. Bill Cook star of the show

Don't see that too often in the playoffs.

1938 Playoffs
Americans win 3-2 in quadruple OT
Rangers 1 Americans 2

No relevant comments. Media coverage for a NY vs NY playoff game is pretty poor, especially with a quadruple OT finisher.

Would coverage be a day later due to missing the deadline?

It made news in Calgary.

It credits "the brilliant goaltending of Earl Robertson" though.

 

[Professor What]

The number of times that there's no significant comment on Kerr's playoff performances is somewhat concerning to me. I guess we're to assume that the stellar numbers are more of a team product than normal?

Rinne on the other hand, I always liked. I don't know that he was ever the most consistent, but when he was on, it felt like he was really on. I also don't think they make the Stanley Cup Finals without him in 2017.

Liut is a hard one for me. The 80s have to be represented somewhere, and it feels like it should be him. But I don't have a feel for him or for the era as a whole, I don't think. I was really unsure what to do with him on my initial list, and nothing has changed now.

As for Rask, I'm just plain not ready for him. I saw too many meltdowns from him. I'm willing to admit that game 6 of the Stanley Cup finals in 2013 probably sticks with me too much, but I never felt that he was the most stable goalie, and I felt that when the cards were down was when it was most likely to show.

 

[jigglysquishy]

The number of times that there's no significant comment on Kerr's playoff performances is somewhat concerning to me. I guess we're to assume that the stellar numbers are more of a team product than normal?

Some of it is that. There are multiple shutouts where he isn't praised. And this is an era with substantial media coverage.

Part of it is the teams though. The newspaper coverage for New York teams is weaker than Toronto, Montreal, or Boston. Why? I'm not sure. I assumed New York would have the largest sports media industry in the 1930s. And it's clear their baseball coverage is massive.

It's hard to expect much out of a weak Maroons team. But the Rangers are actual contenders. The team does pretty good throughout the 1930s and Kerr is a good, not great part of the team.

One thing I will note, is that outside of 1937 he's never the most praised player on the Rangers. Whether it's Bill Cook or Frank Boucher or Neil Colville or Lynn Patrick, there's always a couple players praised higher than him. The team doesn't look great defensively on paper, but I do believe some of the absence of praise is related to him having an easier job.

That being said, I do believe his 1937 is an all-time run and one of the strongest goalie playoff performances of the 1925-1940 time period.

 

[Professor What]

Btw, after Giacomin fared as badly as he did in that last vote, I'm wondering how you guys think he compares to the new entries on the list.

 

[Dr John Carlson]

I might have every newcomer from this round over every newcomer from last round.

Dave Kerr will go highly for me. I'm really hoping to be able to get something out on him. I think he was a 'goalie's goalie' that hockey people of the time appreciated more than the media did. That's just the impression I got from all the Durnan research, most of which took place right around when Kerr walked away from the game while still playing at a high level.

 

[jigglysquishy]

I took a stab at looking at the 2012 Kings run, but the written sources just aren't there. Google Newspaper doesn't have this time period (2009 is the most recent year).

The Regina Leader-Post is available online with my library card. Even then, there's not much to work with. I'm including full pictures of the coverage so you can see what is actually available.

Obviously, Quick is spoken of very favourably. But this is the sum of the newspaper coverage I can find on the 2012 Cup Final. Quick is mentioned in passing in Game 1. He is not mentioned in Game 2. He gets one positive sentence in Game 3. Then Games 4-6 he's the star.

It's not indicative of his play. It's indicative of the shrinking newspaper coverage and the lack of non-Regina options post-2009. Take it for what you will.

 

[blogofmike]

Obviously, Quick is spoken of very favourably. But this is the sum of the newspaper coverage I can find on the 2012 Cup Final. Quick is mentioned in passing in Game 1. He is not mentioned in Game 2. He gets one positive sentence in Game 3. Then Games 4-6 he's the star.

It's not indicative of his play. It's indicative of the shrinking newspaper coverage and the lack of non-Regina options post-2009. Take it for what you will.

Perhaps we can just consult ESPN or TSN?

***

Elimination Games

	Elimination GP	W	L	Sv%	GAA
Tom Barrasso	18​	8​	10​	.872	3.36​
Sergei Bobrovsky	14​	6​	8​	.881	3.64​
Alec Connell	7​	1​	4​		1.98​
Marc-Andre Fleury	18​	8​	9​	.914	2.36​
Ed Giacomin	9​	2​	7​	.895	2.74​
Dave Kerr	11​	3​	5​		2.50​
Percy LeSueur	4​	3​	1​		4.75​
Mike Liut	14​	6​	8​	.903	2.98​
Tuukka Rask	13​	6​	7​	.896	2.73​
Chuck Rayner	2​	0​	2​		3.23​
Pekka Rinne	14​	6​	8​	.918	2.44​
Jonathan Quick	15​	9​	6​	.932	2.13​
Rogie Vachon	10​	4​	6​	.909	2.83​
Gump Worsley	5​	1​	4​	.880	4.19​

Clinching Games

	Clinching GP	W	L	Sv%	GAA
Tom Barrasso	18​	10​	8​	.900	3.05​
Sergei Bobrovsky	16​	9​	6​	.902	2.94​
Alec Connell	9​	3​	4​		1.76​
Marc-Andre Fleury	37​	16​	21​	.904	2.62​
Ed Giacomin	8​	4​	4​	.918	2.39​
Dave Kerr	14​	5​	7​		2.03​
Percy LeSueur	4​	3	1		4.75​
Mike Liut	8​	5​	3​	.921	2.73​
Tuukka Rask	23​	10​	13​	.910	2.60​
Chuck Rayner	4​	1​	3​		2.54​
Pekka Rinne	11​	7​	4​	.932	2.04​
Jonathan Quick	20​	10​	10​	.924	2.08​
Rogie Vachon	12​	7​	5​	.942	1.83​
Gump Worsley	10​	7​	0​	.931	1.93​

 

[overpass]

1940 Playoffs


A weird playoff run. On the surface, Kerr plays well and has tremendous stats. But the game-to-game praise just isn't there. For someone who had so many shutouts and 1 goal games, I was expecting more media praise towards Kerr in a Cup win.

The 1940 Rangers were a hard team to stand out on. They were star-studded and deep, and dominated the NHL together with the Boston Bruins. The 1938-39 Bruins were the greatest team of the post-consolidation NHL to that point, and the 1939-40 Rangers might have been second best.

While the Rangers finished second in the 1939-40 regular season to Boston, their GF/GA ratio was slightly better and their defensive record was considerably better. They also won the regular season series against Boston 4-2-2. After having taken the Bruins to seven games in 1939 with Dave Kerr injured, and with Eddie Shore having left Boston for Springfield before the 1940 playoffs, it's no surprise the Rangers were able to step up and win in 1940.

The Rangers went 3 lines deep, with at least one HHOFer on each line.

The Roughneck line consisted of Phil Watson between Dutch Hiller and Bryan Hextall. They were the #1 line and played against opposing top lines all season. Watson was a great skater and two-way player who could do everything but shoot, and was also the biggest pest in the league. Maybe something like a right-handed Doug Gilmour. Hiller was blazing fast, and Hextall was a LHS sniper playing on RW who dug in the corners and was the hardest hitter in the league. The Roughneck line played a leading role in winning the Boston series when they outplayed the Kraut line. Watson smothered Milt Schmidt, and decades later was "awarded" a retro Conn Smythe for the 1940 playoffs.

Brothers Neil and Mac Colville played with slapshot pioneer Alex Shibicky. The prematurely grey-haired Neil was the star of the line, very skilled and strong both ways. He was a second-team all star at centre in 1939-40. Years later, after the war, he moved back to defence and was again named a second-team all-star.

Lester's son Lynn Patrick played on the third line with Calder winner Kilby MacDonald and with Clint Smith. Patrick and Smith in particular were far overqualified for third line roles, and Smith had in fact led the Rangers in scoring the previous season. Both went on to be Hall of Famers. Patrick led the league in goals two seasons later, and Smith led the league in assists after being traded to Chicago.

Utility player Alf Pike scored a very respectable 17 points in 47 games.

Art Coulter was a star for the Rangers on defence, a rock-solid defender who carried the puck well. He was also the team captain. While the writers never voted him to the first all-star team, the coaches did so three times. When the 94 Rangers won the Cup, Clint Smith was quoted as saying that Coulter had been their best player, and compared him to Mark Messier as a player and a leader.

Babe Pratt was a huge, highly skilled defenceman. He wasn't allowed to rush the puck or show his full talents on the Rangers. Later, he won a Hart Trophy in the war-weakened NHL when he was unleashed to rush the puck.

Ehrhardt (Ott) Heller was a solid two-way defenceman who played for the Rangers forever and retired top-10 in games played all time. Muzz Patrick, Lester's other son, played the other regular defence position. He was a great all-around athlete and former Canadian amateur heavyweight boxing champion. The four blueliners were also well-balanced with two RHS (Coulter and Heller) and two LHS (Pratt and Patrick).

Frank Boucher took over from Lester Patrick as bench coach for this season. He implemented an aggressive 3F/1D attacking penalty kill, mostly with one of the top two lines playing with Coulter. Over the regular season and playoffs, they scored as many goals as they allowed while shorthanded.

Finally, the 1940 Rangers were later known as a team of future coaches. Most of their players went on to coach the Rangers or in the Rangers' minor league system.

With that roster, it's not surprising the Rangers won in 1940. They were a great, great team. Kerr may well have played very well and still not stood out. So I wouldn't give him a big boost just for the fact that they won - but I wouldn't hold it against him too much that he wasn't the story either. The Rangers weren't the kind of team to make their goaltender the story.

 

[CuuuJooo]

I really like Liut as a goalie, though I feel like I never got to see him play much, given the teams he was on.

Where do people line him up next to Andy Moog?

 

[MadArcand]

I really like Liut as a goalie, though I feel like I never got to see him play much, given the teams he was on.

Where do people line him up next to Andy Moog?

...not next to. Far above. I don't see much separating Fuhr and Liut really, outside team circumstances.

 

[overpass]

One question mark for me about Dave Kerr is: What exactly went wrong with the 1940-41 Rangers? And how much of it was Kerr's fault?

The Rangers in 1940-41 had almost the same lineup as 1939-40. But their goals against increased from 77 to 125, and they dropped to fourth in the NHL with a 21-19-8 record. They needed an 8-1 finish to even finish above 0.500. In the playoffs, they lost in the preliminary round to the Red Wings.

Were injuries a factor? They did go only 4-8 in November and December while Art Coulter was injured. But there were no other major injuries, nothing out of the ordinary for a team that expects to contend for the Cup.

The Windsor Daily Star of March 26 reported on Detroit's victory over the Rangers.

The haughty Rangers can not offer alibis for their defeat. They were beaten by a club which doesn't boast as many individual stars, is not nearly so flashy and no quite as fast, but which more than makes up for the lack of these attributes--if such they can be called-in co-ordination, on defence and up forward, and fighting spirit.

Before last night's game the confident Rangers made no secret of their battle plans. They were going to try and push the Wings right out of the title chase by the sheer fury of a ceaseless attack.

In the first game, Detroit outshot the Rangers 23-8 in the first two periods, and Detroit goalie Mowers "would have got by with a wheel chair and a cane." The Rangers tied the game in the third, but lost in overtime. The Rangers bounced back to win game 2. Play was relatively even except when Shibicky, Neil Colville, and Mac Colville's line was on the ice, as they "showered Mowers with rubber." And Detroit outshot the Rangers 31-19 in their deciding game 3 win.

It sounds like the Rangers may have relaxed after their Cup win and gotten a bit lazy defensively as a team.

Lynn Patrick replaced Hiller on the top line with Watson and Hextall. While they were a high scoring trio in the regular season, they didn't seem to have done much in the playoffs. Maybe they lost their "roughneck" identity when Patrick replaced Hiller. Patrick was big and skilled and a top scorer, but he wasn't a physical player. The MSG boo-birds called him Sonja, after figure skater Sonja Henje.

Coaching may also have been a factor. Per the Ottawa Citizen of May 29, 1941:

During most of the 1939-40 season Patrick ran the Ranger team from the bench, turning over the duties occasionally to Coach Frankie Boucher, great Ranger center star of a few years ago. Last season, however, with Patrick in indifferent health at times, Boucher took over the bench-handling almost completely.

Maybe Boucher was poorly suited to pushing the Rangers to repeat. One of those cases where a former player makes a good assistant coach but is too close to the players to crack the whip as a head coach?

Or maybe it was what Bill Simmons called "the disease of more." A team wins the championship, playing hard and playing as a team. But after they win, each player starts to think he deserves more money, deserves more playing time, and everyone plays for himself instead of for the team.

Lester Patrick announced after the 1940-41 season that he wanted to move six players, after already having traded Hiller and knowing that Muzz Patrick would report to the US Army. He named Kerr, Art Coulter, and Clint Smith as three of them. Lester planned to scout the amateur circuit for replacements. The Regina Rangers had just won the Allan Cup, and the Winnipeg Rangers had won the Memorial Cup. Both were affiliated with the NHL's Rangers.

As it turned out, Patrick only replaced Kerr and Kilby MacDonald. Kerr retired and was replaced by Jim Henry from the Regina Rangers. Sources online say Kerr wasn't happy with the contract he was offered, and retired when Patrick wouldn't pay him $10,000.

But did Kerr deserve $10,000 after the 1940-41 season? It's hard to say. His numbers in 1940-41 were far worse than the previous season. And his replacement Henry had about the same defensive record in 41-42 as Kerr in 40-41.

 

[Professor What]

...not next to. Far above. I don't see much separating Fuhr and Liut really, outside team circumstances.

Yeah, honestly I felt like we pulled the trigger on Fuhr too fast. I feel like he'd be better placed with this lot. Maybe I should take that as a sign that Liut should go quickly.

 

[MXD]

(...)

Art Coulter was a star for the Rangers on defence, a rock-solid defender who carried the puck well. He was also the team captain. While the writers never voted him to the first all-star team, the coaches did so three times. When the 94 Rangers won the Cup, Clint Smith was quoted as saying that Coulter had been their best player, and compared him to Mark Messier as a player and a leader.

(...)

This has absolutely nothing to do with the project, but Clint Smith definitely wasn't young by the time he gave that quote. In Canadiens language, that would be the equivalent of Jacques Laperrière commenting on the current edition of the Canadiens. After looking, it appears he was still alive for a while after that, as he passed in 2009.

That wouldn't make him the longest-living NHL'er by his death (on top of my head, it was still Murray Murdoch -- no one had made it to 97 yet). A few players did since, with Steve Wochy, the actual oldest living former NHL'er, being the first to crack 100 as far as I know.

 

[nabby12]

This has absolutely nothing to do with the project, but Clint Smith definitely wasn't young by the time he gave that quote. In Canadiens language, that would be the equivalent of Jacques Laperrière commenting on the current edition of the Canadiens. After looking, it appears he was still alive for a while after that, as he passed in 2009.

That wouldn't make him the longest-living NHL'er by his death (on top of my head, it was still Murray Murdoch -- no one had made it to 97 yet). A few players did since, with Steve Wochy, the actual oldest living former NHL'er, being the first to crack 100 as far as I know.

Steve Wochy is only the second NHLer ever to become a centenarian.

Al Suomi was the first, as he had a cup of coffee with the Black Hawks in 1936-37.

 

[blogofmike]

I really like Liut as a goalie, though I feel like I never got to see him play much, given the teams he was on.

Where do people line him up next to Andy Moog?

Moog ran into a lot of strong opposition in the playoffs. His teams were eliminated by:

81 Isles & 83 Isles
88 Oilers & 90 Oilers
89 Habs
91 Pens & 92 Pens
93 Sabres
94 Canucks
95 Wings
97 Oilers
98 Sabres

Moog's facing off with Smith, Fuhr, Roy, and Hasek, and big-time runs from McLean, Joseph, and the 95 Wings.

Moog performs well in upset wins against Montreal (81, 91, 92) and actually has a winning record against prime Patrick Roy (12-6, .916, 2.29 vs Roy's, 6-12, .904, 2.71, though Cam Neely helped a bunch).

Liut, particularly in St. Louis, gets eliminated while looking like he's the one facing Bossy/Trottier, Gretzky/Messier and Lemieux/Francis, as opposed to the 81 Rangers and Savard Hawks and pre-Savard Hawks.

Yeah, honestly I felt like we pulled the trigger on Fuhr too fast. I feel like he'd be better placed with this lot. Maybe I should take that as a sign that Liut should go quickly.

Fuhr and Moog have significant longevity advantages. Fuhr probably accomplished just as much in the playoffs as Liut did, if you look only at their time as St. Louis Blues.

In 1999, for example Fuhr saves 79 of 83 shots (.952) over games 5, 6, and 7 and caps a 3-1 series comeback with a Game 7 overtime shutout on the road. This gives St. Louis a series win over a winning team. Liut beats a winning team once in Hartford, once in Washington, and 0 times as a Blues goalie.

In 1998 Moog outplays Barrasso, to win one for the Canadiens for once, as a #7-seed upsetting Barrasso's division-winning Penguins.

The problem with Liut, is that he has a lot of middling performances against middling opponents. At least Mike Vernon was getting killed by killers. Liut was getting killed by a moderately unpleasant breeze.