HOH Top 60 Goaltenders of All Time (2024 Edition) - Round 2, Vote 4

[jigglysquishy]

Does anyone have either Luongo or Broda near top of their ballots? They got almost 0 discussion this round.

I have them kind of in the middle, and wonder if either/or might sneak in.

Not top no, somewhere in the middle.

I've been pouring over tons of stuff about the 40s and 60s Leafs dynasties. I'm pretty confident at this point in Bower being ahead of Broda.

Hap Day ran a punishing and tight defensive system that minimized chances against. Broda had a comparatively easy time. He saw shots, but they were typically from distance. Centres stayed back to protect the net. And the system worked since they won 5 Cups (arguably 6) on it. It is the most defense prioritized dynasty I've come across.

It's hard to rank Broda high when all the contemporary reports highlight team defense over goaltender. But I do think he needs to go next round. The longevity is still impressive.

The 60s Leafs were still a defensive juggernaut, but not nearly to the same degree. Bower shouldered more responsibility and is heaped with praise. The Habs teams they played pre dynasty might be the best ever and Bower is 1B to Plante in those series.

Luongo should go soon but not now.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Does anyone have either Luongo or Broda near top of their ballots? They got almost 0 discussion this round.

I have them kind of in the middle, and wonder if either/or might sneak in.

"Absolutely not" for Broda.
"No, there are too many better goalies available" for Luongo.

 

[nabby12]

Does anyone have either Luongo or Broda near top of their ballots? They got almost 0 discussion this round.

I have them kind of in the middle, and wonder if either/or might sneak in.

Yep, I have Broda in the top-3 this round, which is where he should be rightfully going.

Luongo is near the bottom of my list this round.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Yep, I have Broda in the top-3 this round, which is where he should be rightfully going.

What's the case here? I haven't seen any defense of Broda from anyone in this thread. "Rightfully" ought to come with a pitch...right?

 

[Professor What]

I have Broda high at the moment, though I think it's a bit fragile. There are some guys underneath him that could easily topple him if the discussion goes the wrong way for him. Honestly, I think it's largely an artifact of my having had him high to start with. He hasn't quite been brought down, but he hasn't been buoyed like some guys have.

Luongo is in the middle of my ballot right now, I suspect he's going to end up there.

 

[blogofmike]

Hap Day ran a punishing and tight defensive system that minimized chances against. Broda had a comparatively easy time. He saw shots, but they were typically from distance. Centres stayed back to protect the net. And the system worked since they won 5 Cups (arguably 6) on it. It is the most defense prioritized dynasty I've come across.

What of the system of Tommy Gorman?

After starting out working for the Senators, Gorman was the New York Americans coach for Roy Worters first year. After Gorman left, the Americans stopped winning and Worters wasn't outperforming his backups, including Jake Forbes (who @Michael Farkas recently described as "not good.")

He left to go into horse racing. After a suspicious horse murder, (Johnny Fontaine is getting a part in that picture!) Gorman returned to the NHL.

He was Chicago's coach for the Charlie Gardiner Cup in his first full season. While the Vezina Trophy stayed in Chicago following Gardiner's death, the Stanley Cup followed Gorman to the Montreal Maroons.

He then became GM of the Canadiens for the 2 40s Cups.

Might be relevant (to varying degrees) to Clint Benedict, Roy Worters, Charlie Gardiner, Alec Connell, and Bill Durnan, though perhaps less so for Benedict and Durnan as he was a front office guy.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I think it's largely an artifact of my having had him high to start with.

Yeah...this has been tough to overcome it seems.

We have Broda with a narrow 1st team (which probably went to him by a vote over Brimsek due to the GAA connection), a 2nd team in 1942, a 3rd team in a War weakened 1947, a tie for a 1st team in 1948, another 3rd team in 1949 and 1950.

We can't guarantee (in fact, I'd suggest we can fairly assume NOT) any what-if boost from the War years he lost because I don't think he was better than Durnan and it's quite clear he wasn't on the same level of Brimsek at all.

He played for one of the better defensive clubs of the era, as js has pointed out in detail.

Again, not that I love the "vs. teammates" stuff, but superficially...

Leafs goalies from 1936 to 1952:
Broda 304-222-102 (.564) | 2.53 | 61 SO (every 10.3 GP)
Rest 138-117-43 (.535) | 2.70 | 28 SO (every 10.6 GP)

Then you look at things like the mobility and stylistic stuff that promote some rebound issues...it seems fairly clear that he likely would have struggled in virtually any other environment. And given his: 1st, t-1st, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd line across 13 seasons, seems like he's already sort of holding on by a thread to even be in the discussion right now at all.

I know Billy Smith is on a pitch count and therefore, effectively, ineligible for awards...but if you need a money goalie, Smith had a much more scalable game. But I wouldn't even necessarily advocate for either of these guys right now...we have absolute killers in Price and Vasilevskiy right here. We have a better version of Billy Smith in Bernie Parent here. We have like 30 decades of greatness from Bower going against a murderer's row of goalies that we already placed.

I just can't imagine what goes into Broda or Benedict or Holecek right now...where is the case for these guys? Tough to see how they're near the top of ballots right now for me. Real tough.

 

[seventieslord]

What's the case here? I haven't seen any defense of Broda from anyone in this thread. "Rightfully" ought to come with a pitch...right?

He's from Manitoba.