HOH Top 60 Goaltenders of All Time (2024 Edition) - Round 2, Vote 12

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I don't see the comparison with Durnan. I get the team factor, and I get that Durnan played in a weaker league for a good part of his career, but he was consistent as far as anything I understand. Maybe I'm being too tough on Thomas. I don't know. But I don't think that's an appropriate comparison.

Thomas at absolute face value would've been voted in a while ago.
I agree with this. But I don't think face value is accurate.
 
Two seasons and basically nothing else? I don't think he would have been voted yet at all. Have we really taken anyone with this few relevant impact seasons yet?

And also, if everyone isn't taking him at face value...why aren't you? Must be something haha
 
Two seasons and basically nothing else? I don't think he would have been voted yet at all. Have we really taken anyone with this few relevant impact seasons yet?

Shesterkin. His 5th best season (which is, THIS season) is probably on par with Thomas' 5th best season (which was the immediately post-lockout, also a partial season like Shesterkin's current season), and if you tell me that Thomas' numers were a bit too close to Toivonen, I'll replay that Shesterkin's numbers are a bit to close to the positively ancient Jonathan Quick. Last word on topic, won't entertain reply, thank you.
 
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Yeah, why would we want any discussion on a goalie available haha

If Shestyorkin going 3 for 3 in the NHL and has immediately been considered one of the league's elite goalies in a pretty tough situation is similar to Thomas then...well, what difference does it make if we're not willing to chat about it haha
 
Ok, so no credit for his non-NHL stuff is good. But you, who targets Brodeur harder than most because of his team and a buzzword, takes Thomas at face value? Tough to square. You give out a lot of punishment to Brodeur specifically (as if Roy and others didn't play for defensive clubs)...but Thomas strings together a couple seasons and it's just grand?

If Durnan was a bad goalie, I'd be right there with you. I was extremely skeptical of him for the longest time. Turns out he knew what he was doing, so I had to change my tune.

Wonder how Brodeur got into this discussion? Anyway, I never referred to him as a stiff, a bum or as rubbish. I'm not the one that gives out punishing reviews.

But to me, the Devils were significantly better defensively than the Bruins that we are talking about.
 
Wonder how Brodeur got into this discussion? Anyway, I never referred to him as a stiff, a bum or as rubbish. I'm not the one that gives out punishing reviews.

But to me, the Devils were significantly better defensively than the Bruins that we are talking about.
Maybe, maybe not. Boston is certainly a better save pct pumper. And folks live and die by that.

Here's the thing...and don't think I don't get it, I do...but here's the thing: when I love a goalie that people love, it's "this is great analysis" but when I dislike a goalie that maybe some people like it's "what a boob, this guy stinks".

But my process is the same. I'm not asking anyone to adhere, but I'm on the panel, so I state what I see.

But I don't have to worry about "save pct of backups" and other noise. I can. And sometimes I use it to help illustrate a point so that it resonates with folks that use that type of thing.

We've been at this for a long time...not me or you or Tim Thomas...but this board. You have been watching hockey for longer than me on TV. What percentage of the coverage is legitimately critical? Who is out there writing in THN "this line was the suckiest bunch of sucks that ever sucked"...?

It's rare. So now we have to sit there and go "all right, let's assume that no mention means 'bad'...or neutral...or just that they were overshadowed by someone better..." and then we take almost everything that's written that's good at face value. And folks will keep score on how much positivity there is...primarily from media types with unknown knowledge of the game, specifically goaltending.

Again, it's like media coverage of a draft. How many times have you watched a draft and heard someone picked in the first round and the analysts go, "probably not gonna make it because..."?

Never.

The culture of this sport is nothing but atta-boys...the coverage of it is an extreme version of that. If you go against that, you get what you get and that's fine. But amassing just happy thoughts and hugs just doesn't make sense to me.
 
One of the guys worthy of being added is Tom Paton. The case for him is clear. Is this an all-time list? If so, why is there no goalie from the 19th century? I am somewhat disappointed that Paton is all we got. Was I the only one expecting either Frank Stocking or Whitey Merritt as well? Paton has nine relevant seasons, so it's not like voting for Bouse Hutton, a goalie who may have been great too, but only over a stretch of seasons that could be counted on one hand.

Lorne Chabot is also a goalie with good case. Reconstructed save percentages of 1927-1935 revealed him in the best possible light. He was above the league SV% average every single season between 1927-1935. On top of that, Chabot was above SV% average also every single playoff between 1931-1935. When I made that series of posts a month ago, I thought it will force Chabot to the list immediately...

I realize how easily those SV% can be questioned. If a person distrusts even todays SV%, counted by (hopefully) the same method in all arenas, why should we occupy our minds with incomplete save percentages gathered from multiple newspaper sources ca. 90 years ago...

But if a goalie has literally zero statistically below average seasons over the span of 9 seasons, across 4 different teams and various coaches, along with a playoff record in harmony with the regular seasons stats, we should pause, reflect and come to the conclusion that goalie was likely doing something right...

Frustratedly, most of my 27-35 SV% and GSAA tables have been destroyed. So below, I'll just post screenshots of my excel sheets with Chabot row marked. 26-27.png

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30-31 rs.png

30-31 po.png

31-32 rs.png

31-32 po.png

32-33 rs.png

32-33 po.png

33-34 rs.png

33-34 po.png

34-35 rs.png

34-35 po.png

We did the right thing voting in Connell and Roach before Chabot in spite of superior stats of the latter, absolutely... But it would be a mistake to end up with a top-60 list without Chabot completely.

Chabot played 22 playoff games in 1931-1935 timeframe. 21 out of these 22 PO games have been recorded statistically. Chabot went cumulatively 0.949 in the recorded 21 PO games. Prorated by SOG/60, Chabot ends with 0.950 in 22 PO games, and with ca. +7.30 GSAA.
 
Another goaltender with serious consideration: Vladimír Dzurilla.

I'm not going to repeat ups and downs of his career. If you want to read that, just go back to last week's post. I want to raise question whether Dzurilla is ranked fairly. It's real shame that the round 1 panel didn't collectively bring itself to vote Seth Martin or Jiri Kralik sufficiently high enough (or even Holmqvist or Lindmark.. or even Konovalenko...) so that they could appear in the discussion. I mean, if we go by the names appearing throughout the project, participants collectively believe there were more all-time best goalies born between 1962-1965 than the non-NHL goalies playing in Europe over a 3-decade long time span...

List of European goalies spending their prime in 1960-1990 which have been elected:
  1. Vladislav Tretiak
  2. Jiri Holecek
+ Dzurilla as a possible 3rd option.

List of European goalies spending their prime in 1991-2024 which have been elected:
  1. Dominik Hasek
  2. Henrik Lundqvist
  3. Andrei Vasilevskiy
  4. Miikka Kiprusoff
  5. Sergei Bobrovsky
  6. Pekka Rinne
  7. Tuukka Rask
  8. Igor Shesterkin
  9. Evgeni Nabokov
+ Kolzig, Saros and Vokoun as possible 10th, 11th & 12th option.

Now, if you want to temper that argument by deleting few names for not being "european enough", I don't mind.. Vasilevskiy and Bobrovsky were born in Asian part of Russia. Nabokov started to play hockey in what is now a part of Kazakhstan, an Asian part of Kazakhstan geographically speaking. Kolzig has been a non-disputated German starting goaltender for decade plus so he's a European as far I am concerned, but he was born in South Africa and trained in Canada so you might scratch his name off too.

List of Europe-born and trained goalies spending their prime in 1991-2024 so far elected to the list:
  1. Dominik Hasek
  2. Henrik Lundqvist
  3. Miikka Kiprusoff
  4. Pekka Rinne
  5. Tuukka Rask
  6. Igor Shesterkin
+ Saros and Vokoun as possible 7th & 8th option.

If the European goaltending magically improved by the fall of Iron Curtain, I'd like to see an evidence of that. Otherwise we're at the risk ignoring a part of hockey legacy just because... well because of why? Being born on the wrong side of geopolitical borders?

Please let's avoid the mentality "I don't know him, never seen that guy... I'd rather have that 15th best 1990s goalie on the list."
 
Farkas still being a clown with his anti-Thomas agenda in the final days of this Top 60 project. Simply unreal. :laugh:

Great work on single-handedly driving away most posters from this project over these past months.

Chabot, Dzurilla and Thomas will all be in my top 4 for this final ballot.
 
I meant to do the rest of the goalies playoff reports, but I just can't. My wife is 8.5 months pregnant and her mom passed away this week so I just don't have the time to sit and read 100 newspapers.


Ultimately, it feels like we have about 55 "worthy" names to add to the project. The depth of goaltending is weak, but there's a strong dropoff after about 45. I mean, McNeil is going to be in my top 4 and he is 5 full NHL seasons. We're in the firm non-HHOF territory now. Like, for my 10 spot, how does a guy like Moog look good? Or Cheevers?

I think 60 is the right spot to quit, but the depth in this position just isn't there to go deeper. Like if we went to 80 are we suddenly debating Kelly Hrudey?



The only comment I'll add is that I 100% think Dzurilla is in. The third best Euro in an era where European hockey was very strong isn't worth nothing. We have rightfully recognized European goalies 1990-2025, but not 1965-1990.
 
I meant to do the rest of the goalies playoff reports, but I just can't. My wife is 8.5 months pregnant and her mom passed away this week so I just don't have the time to sit and read 100 newspapers.


Ultimately, it feels like we have about 55 "worthy" names to add to the project. The depth of goaltending is weak, but there's a strong dropoff after about 45. I mean, McNeil is going to be in my top 4 and he is 5 full NHL seasons. We're in the firm non-HHOF territory now. Like, for my 10 spot, how does a guy like Moog look good? Or Cheevers?

I think 60 is the right spot to quit, but the depth in this position just isn't there to go deeper. Like if we went to 80 are we suddenly debating Kelly Hrudey?



The only comment I'll add is that I 100% think Dzurilla is in. The third best Euro in an era where European hockey was very strong isn't worth nothing. We have rightfully recognized European goalies 1990-2025, but not 1965-1990.
Don't feel bad about not being able to do that. You've done a lot for this process. And you have both my condolences and congratulations.
 
I meant to do the rest of the goalies playoff reports, but I just can't. My wife is 8.5 months pregnant and her mom passed away this week so I just don't have the time to sit and read 100 newspapers.


Ultimately, it feels like we have about 55 "worthy" names to add to the project. The depth of goaltending is weak, but there's a strong dropoff after about 45. I mean, McNeil is going to be in my top 4 and he is 5 full NHL seasons. We're in the firm non-HHOF territory now. Like, for my 10 spot, how does a guy like Moog look good? Or Cheevers?

I think 60 is the right spot to quit, but the depth in this position just isn't there to go deeper. Like if we went to 80 are we suddenly debating Kelly Hrudey?



The only comment I'll add is that I 100% think Dzurilla is in. The third best Euro in an era where European hockey was very strong isn't worth nothing. We have rightfully recognized European goalies 1990-2025, but not 1965-1990.

Over 125 years or so of hockey there are only maybe 45 really good goaltenders?

Tough crowd.
 
Paton has clear multiple awards as the best of the first era of hockey, and is deserving of ALL-TIME hockey list consideration; maybe it's the sweetest if he's inducted in the last class because he is deserving of the first class in hockey history.

Tom Paton is the first great goaltender in hockey history, winning the first ever Stanley Cup in 1893, nine years after he had won hockey's first award, medals in 1885 when he backstopped the winning team in the Montreal Winter Carnival, posting three shutouts in four games, including one in the final. He again won the carnival championship two years later, then the championship of the Amateur Hockey Association of Canada (AHAC) in 1888, 1889, 1890, 1891, 1892 and 1893. While it was common for hockey players to retire early - Mike Grant at age 28 and Graham Drinkwater at 24 as two examples of many - Paton actually began goaltending at age 30 and had a successful nine-year career (six years with the lowest goals against average in all of organized hockey), ending with a 7-1 record and the Stanley Cup in 1893. Ultimate Hockey says Paton deserved the Vezina in 1888, 1889, 1890, 1891 and 1893 (they didn't cover pre-1887) and that he deserved the Hart in 1889 as the best player in all of hockey.
Montreal Gazette said:
At the start the puck was carried down to the Montreal end of the ice and shot after shot was made at the goal, but Paton stopped them with his hands, stick or feet. He seemed to be in every part of the goals at once, and every time the puck was shot in it was as speedily returned, and finally Cameron scooped it up to the other end of the rink.
Montreal Gazette said:
Paton was a wizard, Allan Cameron says, at stopping shots.
hockeygods.com said:
Tom was a pioneer goaltender in organized Hockey.. a founding member of the Montreal Amateur Athletic Association Hockey team (Montreal HC).. regarded in many history texts as being undefeated in 1890 and 1891..
Hockey-Notes.com said:
He was a stellar goalkeeper, putting together solid efforts from 1887 through the 1894 season. The short time he did spend playing for the AAA was well spent indeed. He was, simply put, a gem.

In the 1889 final match, the AAA bashed the Montreal Victorias 6-1, thanks in large part to his work between the pipes. According to records, he singlehandedly kept the AAA in the game long enough to ensure the victory.

Regarding the 1st Stanley Cup in 1893 it has been said:
He was rock-solid between the pipes, or "flags," leading all net-men with a 2.25 goals-against average
The 1888 schedule culminated in an exciting one-game playoff between the Montreal AAA and Montreal Victorias. The former took the title, winning 2-1 on the strength of some fine goaltending by him.
Montreal Gazette said:
... Paton was on the alerts and sent it down only to be returned to him to defend his charge which he did well.. Paton was keeping a sharp lookout it was sent up again where another spell of open play occurred...
  • Paton got hockey's first recorded award, medals to the champion goaltender of the 1885 Montreal Winter Carnival. (see ATD BIO)
  • The first Stanley Cup championship ring of Tom Paton's from 1893.(ALSO IN ATD BIO).
Let's have the best from EVERY era of hockey history on our list!
 
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Paton has clear multiple awards as the best of the first era of hockey
Retroactive awards; I have not come across any contemporary all-star awards from Paton's time period.

I am also not sold on those retroactive awards, as they seem largely based on statistics and team success rather than the descriptions from the people who actually watched them.
Tom Paton is the first great goaltender in hockey history
Definitely debatable. He played the longest, was a good goalie, and was on the dominant team of his time, but I would contend that doesn't make him the greatest goalie around.

, winning the first ever Stanley Cup in 1893, nine years after he had won hockey's first award, medals in 1885
The 1883 Montreal Winter Carnival gave a trophy to the winners, so nope. Also, its a team award.

when he backstopped the winning team in the Montreal Winter Carnival, posting three shutouts in four games, including one in the final.
Games were low scoring back then. For most of the tournament (outside of Montreal AAA destroying Montreal FC because MFC was forced to play a man down all game), I believe no team scored more than 2 goals in any game.


He again won the carnival championship two years later,
Another team award
then the championship of the Amateur Hockey Association of Canada (AHAC) in 1888, 1889, 1890, 1891, 1892 and 1893.
More team awards. Plus, saying Montreal AAA won in 1892 is technically accurate, that is only because of the challenge style set-up of the league that year. Montreal HC went 1-3 in AHAC challenge games, and 2-4-1 counting all the games I have come across so far. Ottawa HC ran show that year, and Montreal HC only won the championship due to winning the last game of the season (against Ottawa HC), and likely only because the real stars of the early Montreal HC- Archie McNaughton and Archie Hodgson, who hadn't played yet that year- came out to play and combined to score the goal that game Montreal HC the win.

Montreal HC stayed strong even after Paton retired. They won the league in 1894 with Herb Collins in goals, then finished tied for second in 1895 (the rise of the Montreal Victorias). The bottom didn't fall out for Montreal HC until the 1896 seasons, where the finished 5th. Not coincidentally (in my opinion), Allan Cameron, Archie Hodgson, and Haviland Routh retired after 1895.

While it was common for hockey players to retire early - Mike Grant at age 28 and Graham Drinkwater at 24 as two examples of many - Paton actually began goaltending at age 30 and had a successful nine-year career (
His longevity is impressive; that and his team successes are why he is being discussed here. Of course, it wasn't unheard of for players to play a long time back then. Dolly Swift debuted in 1882 and played until 1899, for example.

six years with the lowest goals against average in all of organized hockey), ending with a 7-1 record and the Stanley Cup in 1893.
Organized hockey wasn't exactly widespread back then; there was, what, three relevant leagues (OHA, MHA, AHAC) at that point? Furthermore, GAA was a team based stat AND goalies served their own penalties back then- there is a lot of uncertainty baked into GAA from that era.

Ultimate Hockey says Paton deserved the Vezina in 1888, 1889, 1890, 1891 and 1893 (they didn't cover pre-1887) and that he deserved the Hart in 1889 as the best player in all of hockey.
As someone who has been through the game summaries, I'm going to challenge a lot of that, as it seems largely based on GAA and team success. The most egregious "award" there is the 18889 retro-Hart, which, to my mind, should 100% go to Jack Campbell.

But for the other years- outside of 1888 and 1893, those were all challenge style seasons. As Montreal AAA was the top dog, Paton played the most games, and was in the papers the most because of it. I mean, look at 1892- notice that Paton isn't the retro-Vezina that year? It's because Montreal AAA wasn't that strong, despite Paton being between the poles.

Tom was a pioneer goaltender in organized Hockey.. a founding member of the Montreal Amateur Athletic Association Hockey team (Montreal HC).. regarded in many history texts as being undefeated in 1890 and 1891..
This should have no bearing on his status as a goalie.

He was a stellar goalkeeper, putting together solid efforts from 1887 through the 1894 season. The short time he did spend playing for the AAA was well spent indeed. He was, simply put, a gem.

He retired in 1893, so not "through 1894". Solid efforts is a good description, better than "gem".

In the 1889 final match, the AAA bashed the Montreal Victorias 6-1, thanks in large part to his work between the pipes. According to records, he singlehandedly kept the AAA in the game long enough to ensure the victory.

What is the source for this?

The Montreal Gazette and Montreal Herald had pretty good coverage, and I don't see any praise for Paton. Eddie Barlow, JJ Arnton, Jack Campbell, Findlay, McNaughton, Hodgson, and Cameron all get mentioned, but I'm not seeing Paton with much, if any, praise.

Regarding the 1st Stanley Cup in 1893 it has been said

Paton's per-game positive quote/quality of of quotes is not particularly impressive. He was a good goalie for a good amount of time and on a good team- no doubt about that. But was he great? I don't think there is enough evidence that he was better than some of his peers, let alone those who came after.

Paton got hockey's first recorded award, medals to the champion goaltender of the 1885 Montreal Winter Carnival. (see ATD BIO)

Demonstrably false (1883 Montreal Carnival winners got a trophy)

The first Stanley Cup championship ring of Tom Paton's from 1893.(ALSO IN ATD BIO).
There were 6 other guys on the ice with him.


Let's have the best from EVERY era of hockey history on our list!

Hopefully no one accuses me of being biased against the earliest eras of hockey; I have been pushing for representation for the early guys all project. But that only works when we are supporting players who deserve it because of their play, not because of their era.

Moran, LeSueur, Stocking, Hern, etc, those guys show that they distinguished themselves from the peers by their play. On winning teams, on losing teams, they were being called great. I don't see that level of praise when I go through Paton's career.

Not voting for Paton isn't having a bias against the 1880s/1890s- its recognizing that the praise isn't there to warrant his admission.
 
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