HOH Top 60 Goaltenders of All Time (2024 Edition) - Round 2, Vote 11

[Dr John Carlson]

Procedure

• In this vote, you will be presented with 16 players based on their ranking in the Round 1 aggregate list
• Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
• You will submit ten names in a ranked order, #1 through #10, without ties via PM to both @Dr John Carlson and @Professor What. That means six names out of these fifteen will be left unranked on your ballot.
• Use the same private message thread every week rather than starting a new PM
• Results of this vote will be posted after each voting cycle, but the individual ballots themselves will remain secret until the completion of this project
• The top 5 players will be added to the final list (unless a very large break exists at the spot between 4&5 (or 3&4!), or the break between 5&6 is minimal)
• Lists of players eligible for voting will grow as the project continues
• Voting threads will continue until we have added 60 names to the list, for a total of 12 voting threads

Eligible Voters

• Ballots from voters who have submitted an approved Round 1 ranking of 80 goaltenders (which was used to shape the aggregate list) will have their votes tabulated in the final ranking
• These voters are: @nabby12, @overpass, @frisco, @Professor What, @DN28, @jigglysquishy, @tony d, @rmartin65, @Vilica, @bobholly39, @The Pale King, @blogofmike, @Dr John Carlson, @MXD, @Michael Farkas, @ContrarianGoaltender, @VanIslander, @seventieslord, @Weztex

Guidelines

• Respect each other. No horseplay or sophistry!
• Please refrain from excessive use of the 'laughing' reaction to indicate disagreement / hold grudges
• Stay on topic and don't get caught up in talking about non-eligible players
• Participate, but retain an open mind throughout the discussion
• Do not speculate who cast any particular ballot. Do not make judgments about the mindset of whoever cast that particular ballot. All individual ballots will be revealed at the end of the project
• Anybody may participate in the discussion, whether they submitted a list or not

House Rules

• Any attempts to derail a discussion thread with disrespect to old-time hockey will be met with frontier justice
• Take a drink when someone mentions the number of hockey registrations in a given era
• Finish your drink when someone mentions that wins are a team stat

The actual voting period will open up on Friday, January 24th at midnight and continue through Sunday, January 26th at 11:59 PM Eastern time. I will release the results of the vote the morning of Monday, January 27th, at which point the next voting thread will begin.

Vote 11 Candidates

• Lorne Chabot
• Gerry Cheevers
• Roger Crozier
• Vladimir Dzurilla
• Ed Giacomin
• Riley Hern
• Braden Holtby
• Olaf Kolzig
• Ryan Miller
• Evgeni Nabokov
• Chico Resch
• Mike Richter
• Al Rollins
• Juuse Saros
• Tim Thomas
• Mike Vernon

Click to read more...

 

[jigglysquishy]

Dzurilla and Hern will do well for me here. Shocked we still don't have Paton. I thought Dzurilla would come up 3 rounds ago.

Giacomin will likely be at the top of my ballot.

Holtby is an interesting name. He has a couple year stretch where I think he was legit a top 2 or 3 goalie in the world. Not many guys left where you can say that.

 

[jigglysquishy]

	Goalie	Times	Share
1	Martin Brodeur	15	5.40
2	Dominik Hasek	11	4.76
3	Patrick Roy	17	4.63
4	Connor Hellebucyk	5	2.63
5	Ed Belfour	11	2.51
6	Pekka Rinne	5	2.12
7	Andrei Vasilevsky	6	2.05
8	Tom Barrasso	7	1.98
9	Sergei Bobrovsky	6	1.97
10	Henrik Lundqvist	10	1.93
11	Grant Fuhr	8	1.84
12	Braden Holtby	3	1.68
13	Roberto Luongo	9	1.66
14	Tim Thomas	3	1.55
15	John Vanbiesbrouck	9	1.52
16	Tuukka Rask	5	1.50
17	Miikka Kiprusoff	7	1.44
18	Carey Price	7	1.40
19	Evgeni Nabokov	6	1.23
20	Curtis Joseph	8	1.02
21	Pete Peeters	3	1.02
22	Igor Shesterkin	3	1.02

Bolded are eligible. Italicized are inducted. Pete Peeters is the only name to not be up yet. Holtby and Thomas stand out pretty strongly in Vezina recognition to their peers.

Miller is at 0.87, Kolzig and Vernon are at 0.84, Saros is at 0.42, Richter is at 0.21

Times top 3
Thomas - 2 (1,1)
Holtby - 2 (1,2)
Kolzig- 1 (1)
Miller - 1 (1)
Nabokov - 1 (2)
Vernon - 1 (2)
Richter - 1 (3)
Saros - 1 (3)

All-Star Team Finishes (1945 onwards)
Okay, I've tried this a few times now and the formatting is broken on the new website. Hopefully this works.

All-Star Team Finishes (1945 onwards)

Player	First	Second	Third	Total	Weighted Total
Ed Giacomin	1​	3​	0​	4​	14​
Tim Thomas	2​	0​	0​	2​	10​
Braden Holtby	1​	1​	0​	2​	8​
Roger Crozier	1​	0​	0​	1​	5​
Evgeni Nabokov	1​	0​	0​	1​	5​
Ryan Miller	1​	0​	0​	1​	5​
Olaf Kolzig	1​	0​	0​	1​	5​
Chico Resch	0​	1​	1​	1​	4​
Mike Vernon	0​	1​	0​	1​	3​
Al Rollins	0​	0​	2​	2​	2​
Gerry Cheevers	0​	0​	1​	1​	1​
Mike Richter	0​	0​	0​	0​	0​
Juuse Saros	0	0	0	0	0

[

 

[MXD]

I had Holtby in the late 40ies, right between Ryan Miller and Connor Hellebuyck (which I already called a mistake). I may have been a bit too lenient, because he was really young when his game cratered, which isn't a great sign. It's crazy to think that he's the same age as Drew Doughty and Jamie Benn, but stopped being relevant about 7 years ago. I'm very comfortable calling him the 2nd best netminder in the world during the mid 2010ies, after Carey Price. He was better than Rinne, better than Lundqvist, better than Varlamov. But that is VERY young for having such a drop off, and it's not like he has the justifications Carey Price had for an apparent drop-off (injuries + very sharp drop in team quality).

Come to think of it, his career trajectory is quite similar to PK Subban. Came out looking great in 2010-11, become star in 2013, become nearly interchangeable in 2018 and retired in 2022. Meanwhile, his former teammate Varlamov, who is also similar-aged, SHOULD have won the Vezina in 2021, and posted a very fine season as a backup in 23-24.

I was really convinced Holtby is a better netminder than Varlamov 4 months ago. Now I'm not so sure. e.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Every Roger Crozier playoff game

1964 Playoffs
Crozier came in relief early in the second period in Game 4 (series was Red Wings 2 Black Hawks 1 at this point) after Terry Sawchuk went to the hospital with a shoulder injury. Game was delayed to let Crozier dress as he was in the stands.
Black Hawks win 3-2 in OT
Red Wings 2 Hawks 2

The Windsor Star · ‎Apr 3, 1964

Crozier gloved a low try from Chico Maki as the Hawks grabbed an offensive edge, but the Wings checking made them hurry their shots and the majority of them went off target.

Hawks win 3-2
Shots: Wings 30 Hawks 23
Wings 2 Hawks 2

Saskatoon Star-Phoenix · ‎Apr 6, 1964

Crozier was the only man to handle the puck and he "probably put the puck in the net himself" [in reference to the Hawks third period tieing goal]

Sawchuk played in the game 5 win

Crozier also briefly came in in game 7

All-in-all, three relief games is hard to get much of a read on.

1965 Playoffs
Wings beat Hawks 4-3
Shots: Wings 36 Hawks 32
Wings 1 Hawks 0

Saskatoon Star-Phoenix · ‎Apr 2, 1965 ·

Both goalies made brilliant saves.

Crozier made three dazzling saves from lose in before Hall banged the puck in.

Wings win 6-3
Shots: Wings 35 Hawks 23
Wings 2 Hawks 0

No relevant comments

Hawks win 5-2
Shots: Wings 30 Hawks 16
Wings 2 Hawks 1

No relevant comments

Hawks win 2-1
Shots: Wings 28 Hawks 28
Wings 2 Hawks 2

Saskatoon Star-Phoenix · ‎Apr 9, 1965

Roger Crozier played perhaps his strongest game of the series and couldn't be faulted on either goal.

Wings win 4-2
Shots: Wings 30 Hawks 25
Wings 3 Hawks 2

Saskatoon Star-Phoenix · ‎Apr 12, 1965

The Hawks opened scoring when Crozier failed to glove a 15-foot shot from the point by Nesterenko

Hawks win 4-0
Shots: Wings 33 Hawks 32
Wings 3 Hawks 3

Saskatoon Star-Phoenix · ‎Apr 14, 1965

Out of the three goals in the third period on which Crozier had little chance, the five-foot, eight-inch goaltender was a standout for the NHL champions.

Hawks win 4-2
Shots: Wings 23 Hawks 31
Wings 3 Hawks 4

No relevant comments


Overall, not a great series. He is greatly outplayed by Hall. Lots of comments about goals that weren't hit fault. Bobby Hull ate his lunch.


1966 Playoffs
Hawks beat Wings 2-1
Shots: Wings 30 Hawks 28
Wings 0 Hawks 1

No relevant comments

Wings win 7-0
Shots: Wings 32 Hawks 21
Wings 1 Hawks 1

The Montreal Gazette · ‎Apr 11, 1966

Although [Crozier] only made 21 saves, he made several sharp saves to preserve his shutout

Hawks win 2-1
Shots: Wings 30 Hawks 24
Wings 1 Hawks 2

Youngstown Vindicator · ‎Apr 13, 1966

Roger Crozier has shut out Chicago is seven of the nine periods.

His Wings are down 2-1.

Wings win 5-1
Shots: Wings 32 Hawks 21
Wings 2 Hawks 2

The Montreal Gazette · ‎Apr 15, 1966

Crozier stopped only 21 Chicago shots down at the other end, most of them were from a distance as the Wings played a close checking game in their own zone

Wings win 5-3
Shots: Wings 27 Hawks 31
Wings 3 Hawks 2

Saskatoon Star-Phoenix · ‎Apr 18, 1966

The Detroit defensive crew of Bill Gadsby, Leo Boivin, Gary Bergman and Bert Marshall provided almost air-tight coverage for goalie Roger Crozier. When the Hawks did get close enough to score most of their shots were wide of the target.

Wings win 3-2
Shots: Wings 30 Hawks 28
Wings 4 Hawks 2

The Windsor Star · ‎Apr 20, 1966

Roger Crozier in the Detroit nets made some of the most amazing saves of his life to board up a 3-2 edge.

He's outplayed by Hall again, who gets lots of prasie. Gadsby and Howe get some really strong praise. Ullman and Delvecchio get strong praise too. The Detroit defensive prowess is repeatedly noted. It's not a bad series, but he just doesn't get much praise. He had a strong game 7 though.

1966 Stanley Cup Finals
Wings beat Habs 3-2
Shots: Wings 35 Habs 35
Wings 1 Habs 0

Saskatoon Star-Phoenix · ‎Apr 25, 1966

Crozier Brilliant

"Crozier was fantastic and the team was sensational," Detroit coach Sid Abel said Sunday. "Crozier was terrific in Chicago and even better here."

Detroit wins 5-2
Shots: Red Wings 34 Habs 25
Red Wings 2 Habs 0

The Evening Independent · ‎Apr 27, 1966

Wings' Crozier 'Just Terrific'

Crozier was the big man again last night

Sparked by a pair of game-saving saves by Crozier in the first minute of play in the third period, the REd Wings scored four goals.

"Crozier was just terrific. He saved us again. What more can I say?" Abel said.

Montreal wins 4-2
Shots: Red Wings 31 Habs 31
Red Wings 2 Habs 1

The Windsor Star · ‎Apr 29, 1966

Worsley stole one from the Wings the same way Crozier had take two away from the Habs.

Crozier, chosen first star of the first two games, couldn't be given the rap for this one. He was good, but merely human, and was beaten by two goal-mouth deflections, one clean breakaway, and one two-on-one break.

Montreal wins 2-1
Shots: Red Wings 23 Habs 33
Red Wings 2 Habs 2

Bobby Rousseau collides with Crozier, who suffered a sprained left knee and twisted ankle. Hank Bassen plays last two periods.

Montreal wins 5-1
Shots: Red Wings 21 Habs 33
Red Wings 2 Habs 3

The Calgary Herald · ‎May 4, 1966

Abel said after the game that he will call on Crozier again Thursday despite the loss, because "it wasn't Roger's fault."

Montreal wins 3-2 in OT
Shots: Red Wings 30 Habs 22
Red Wings 2 Habs 4

No relevant comments, but he does win the Conn Smythe.

This was a strong series. He's the best player over the first two games, but then the Habs just take over. Ullman and Howe get praise too, but Gadsby doesn't get near the praise as round 1. It's clear Crozier was not close to 100% after the game 4 injury.


1970 Playoffs
Crozier started game 4 in the sweep by the Hawks. He asked to be relieved halfway through the second.

1973 Playoffs
Crozier starts game 3 for Buffalo against Montreal (Buffalo is down 2 games to 0)

Habs win 5-2
Shots: Sabres 44 Habs 27
Sabres 0 Habs 3

No relevant comments

Sabres win 5-1
Shots: Sabres 50 Habs 24
Sabres 1 Habs 3

The Calgary Herald · ‎Apr 9, 1973

Crozier performed with flair and agility in the Buffalo nets, turning aside all but one of 24 Montreal drives. The only shot to elude Crozier was Yvan Cournoyer's fifth goal of the series late in the first period

Sabres win 3-2 in OT
Shots: Sabres 34 Habs 40
Sabres 2 Habs 3

The Calgary Herald · ‎Apr 11, 1973

Roger Crozier, Gilbert Perreault and Rene Robert as the three stars of the game.

Roger Crozier....midget marvel

Habs win 4-2
Shots: Sabres 44 Habs 24
Sabres 2 Habs 4

No relevant comments

No a bad series by any stretch. Buffalo does surprisingly well and Perreault stands out as the star.


1975 Playoffs
Gerry Desjardins starts in round 1 as the Sabres beat the Hawks

Sabres beat Habs 5-6 in OT
Shots: Sabres 43 Habs 31
Sabres 1 Habs 0

No relevant comments. Crozier comes in relief a minute into the game as starter Desjardin hurts his knee

Sabres win 4-2
Shots: Sabres 35 Habs 27
Sabres 2 Habs 0

No relevant comments.

Habs win 7-0
Shots: Sabres 27 Habs 40
Sabres 2 Habs 1

No relevant comments. Crozier is pulled after allowing 5 goals on 31 shots

Habs win 8-2
Shots: Sabres 25 Habs 43
Sabres 2 Habs 2

Desjardin plays

Sabres win 5-4 in OT
Shots: Sabres 45 Habs 19
Sabres 3 Habs 2

Desjardin plays

Sabres win 4-3
Shots: Sabres 27 Habs 32
Sabres 4 Habs 2

Desjardin plays

1975 Stanley Cup Finals
Crozier plays game 6 (Sabres are down 3-2 in series
Flyers win 2-0
Shots: Sabres 32 Flyers 31
Sabres 2 Flyers 4

Observer-Reporter · ‎May 28, 1975

While Parent excelled in victory, Crozier stood out in defeat.

All in all, there's very little outside 1966. Now, 1966 is a really strong playoffs. It's the main reason he's here. Do I think one strong playoff run is enough for this round? No, I don't. But he does have a couple more good years in Detroit (1965 and 1966 regular seasons). He is no longer an NHL starter after age 30 and there's very little meat on the bones.

 

[Michael Farkas]

These new names are pretty good, it actually checks off a number of my top 40 guys that I haven't seen yet (Saros, Crozier, Resch, and Holtby are all in my 30's)...at a glance, I think I'm down to just four guys that were in my top 40 who haven't come up yet.

Since Roger Crozier was an early talking point, thanks to the tireless work of @jigglysquishy - I'll start there too.

I talked about the links between players carrying on play styles a lot in the prelim thread and a little bit into some of the playoff rounds here...the Glenn Hall to Patrick Roy butterfly gap is not really filled by Tony Esposito, he was not good enough technically to lay claim to that, part of that gap filling is actually Roger Crozier.

Quick instance of butterfly here in his famous 1966 playoffs...



Fairly straightforward save there for butterfly at the time. But one thing you see a lot more of later with Crozier is his wide stance setup that he employed quite a bit at the zone entry portion of the proceedings to my eye (controlled entry or off an in-zone regroup). If there's another trigger for it, I didn't perceive it - so please, shout it out if you see another pattern in your viewings.

You get piece of it here...

Probably a little better look at it here...



Almost a little bit of a Jonathan Quick precursor there in some respects. Obviously, you can't move on these pads (especially this late in the season) like Quick, but there are some elements.

The overly wide stance is interesting and it couples well with his edge work. Take a fast look at skating in a more "familiar" way here...



Crozier loves to come out and play the puck. Because of his hockey sense, he did a pretty fair job of it. He gets in a little hot soup here, but flips his skates quick, shows strong transition ability, and then nice edges to get exactly where he needs to, under control, right to his spot.

Anyway, the wide stance is interesting in the 70's - as things got more loosey-goosey things were maybe moving laterally more than they were before. A wide stance might allow you to pre-load your knees more and cover more ground laterally faster in the butterfly. In other words, Lemaire crosses the blueline with the puck, slows up, and then hits a streaking Lafleur down the wing. Your wide stance allows you to get over towards your post while covering a lot of low net as you push into the shooting lane. As opposed to a guy who stands up, where he might have to sort of shuffle his way over there and if he doesn't have good edges or whatever, he might not get to his spot in a way that's comfortable for him and his save process...so then maybe you're standing there and someone shoots it low corner on you, you look not set. Or you take a tumble trying to make a save after a cross net line pass (think Dryden, a little bit).

Naturally, it has its drawbacks.



You end up with a high shot going against the grain, well...it's tough to get up out of that stance in a hurry, it can throw you off balance. Crozier generally played "down". Knees to the floor, heels to the goalline...he's a down and back goalie and he wanted to block things. Which, again, is a little unique for this period of time. Guys worked towards pucks and shooters a lot more.

This sort of passive, down and back style can create big rebound problems. Especially with the equipment at the time. You have to make yourself real soft, you have to be able to extend those heels out there, etc. to limit your rebounds or you're gonna get into trouble.

For instance, this is a buxom rebound on a long shot. But even here, if you freeze it right after the shot hits him - what do you think is gonna happen here in 1975? That goalie is going to go out there and try to mop up this mess by whatever means necessary, right? Not Crozier. Down and back, down and back. Stay in the net, take up as much net as you can.



Obviously, he's appropriate with it. Unlike a lot of bad goalies today, he doesn't mess up the post integration. Standing up on the posts because you don't need to be down there.



##

Punch Imlach wasn’t a boy on a man’s errand when he traded the Sabres’ No. 1 pick, rightwinger Tom Webster, to the Detroit Red Wings for goalie Roger Crozier at the National Hockey League’s draft meeting last June.

“I want a major league goaltender…a guy with major league credentials who has proved he can do the job up here…and Crozier is that man,” Imlach said at the time. “For us to win, we must get superior goaltending.”

Roger was spectacular his first two years. He won the Calder Memorial Trophy as top rookie in 1964-65 and won the Conn Smythe Trophy as outstanding playoff performer the next year even though Montreal beat Detroit in the Stanley Cup finals.

But in 1966-67 his goals against average soared to 3.35 and the Red Wings finished in fifth place. Then, just a month into the 1967-68 season. Crozier chucked it and went home, saying he’d forgotten how to play the game.

And with Roger, it was no game. It was a gut-churning experience and Crozier has a bad stomach, a chronic pancreas condition which nearly killed him one summer.

“Some guys play 20 years and don’t go through what I’ve gone through already,” the prematurely balding. 27-vear-old goalkeeper said:

Playing for a quickly worsened Detroit team probably didn't help matters...

He’ll need every bit of that old brilliance to plug up the leaky Detroit defense that is the worst in the NHL.

He had all kinds of ailments and at one point apparently ran away to live in the Northern Ontario woods for months. So, he's definitely one of those goalies. And like a lot of guys that played on the floor during this era, he didn't win. That said, he didn't appear to leave a lot to be desired in the postseason either as noted, and statistically.

Best goalie statistically among three on the '64 Wings, '66 wins the Smythe, 2 goals per game better than Dave Dryden on the '73 Sabres, half a goal better than Gerry Desjardins on the '75 Sabres. His only other playoff was a 7-game loss to the Black Hawks in '65.

I know the traditional "resume" is pretty weak, but a very strong '65 1-AS (just missed taking the 1st half, absolutely killed the 2nd half); 7th Hart in '66 (2nd among goalies), he missed a 2-AS by just a few votes in '66 (was 2-AS in 1H); a weak 6-AS in '67 and '72; a weak 5-AS in '73.

So, what do we have? Well, I like advent points. Crozier offers some. Unique, but somewhat scalable stance modifications that he adapted over time. Didn't get dealt an amazing hand team-wise, not the worst either. But going to an expansion team is tough in this time, and he does help them to get to a Cup within five years. He has a good amount of talent, very good skater for the time, quick, and smart. Had good numbers against Montreal in the early 70's (not so good against Boston, to be fair).

All signs point to this being a very good goalie for me. Eye test is good (for this point in the list), contemporary reports are generally a plus, stats are good for the situations he was in. I think we have a real plus player here, and one that doesn't get talked about a lot even here.