HOH Top 60 Goaltenders of All Time (2024 Edition) - Round 2, Vote 1

[Dennis Bonvie]

Why does it always seem like being in position and not having to make a great save is somehow not good goaltending?

Right.

He makes it look easy because of his great positioning.

Heard that a million times. I'm not buying it. Especially in this case.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Right.

He makes it look easy because of his great positioning.

Heard that a million times. I'm not buying it. Especially in this case.

So, very likely the smartest goalie with maybe the best anticipation of all time...was generally out of position? Or, at least, not great at positioning.

Let's go to the tape, I've cut it down so that it's only shot attempts, so no one can complain about having to watch games...



Let's break it down, where are the positioning issues...?

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

So, very likely the smartest goalie with maybe the best anticipation of all time...was generally out of position? Or, at least, not great at positioning.

Let's go to the tape, I've cut it down so that it's only shot attempts, so no one can complain about having to watch games...



Let's break it down, where are the positioning issues...?

You misinterpreted my response. Or I wasn't clear.

Didn't say his positioning was bad. Just saying he didn't make a lot of great saves for the Devils because he didn't have to. It wasn't because he made it look easy with his positioning.

 

[Michael Farkas]

You misinterpreted my response. Or I wasn't clear.

Didn't say his positioning was bad. Just saying he didn't make a lot of great saves for the Devils because he didn't have to. It wasn't because he made it look easy with his positioning.

Ok, fair enough. But for his whole career - which spans multiple distinct eras - does he have a significantly greater "advantage" in terms of team tactics over everyone else?

And if so, how large is that advantage?

If Brodeur is a 10 in terms of tactical advantage...what is Plante? Dryden? Roy? Roughly...obviously, this is no exact science. That is, of course, assuming that Brodeur is at the top of this advantage. He shouldn't be, but it sounds like he is...

 

[Staniowski]

I flipped through the Game by Dryden to see if there was anything relevant.

"For me, the greatest goalies must always be Hall, Sawchuk, Plante, and Bower."

I know Dryden grew up in the Toronto area, but it's interesting that Bower is included in the former group.

LOL....

Dryden isn't saying he believes Hall, Sawchuk, Plante, and Bower are the greatest goalies. He's saying they are his four goaltending heroes, and he forever looks at them through the eyes of his childhood. And therefore he will always see them as the best.

He is being critical of his perspective, and similarly the perspectives of most people.

He's implying that he knows his childhood heroes are not actually the greatest; that hockey has improved, that goaltenders have improved. And he realizes that the current young generations look at him the same way he looked at his goaltending heroes.

 

[jigglysquishy]

LOL....

Dryden isn't saying he believes Hall, Sawchuk, Plante, and Bower are the greatest goalies. He's saying they are his four goaltending heroes, and he forever looks at them through the eyes of his childhood. And therefore he will always see them as the best.

He is being critical of his perspective, and similarly the perspectives of most people.

He's implying that he knows his childhood heroes are not actually the greatest; that hockey has improved, that goaltenders have improved. And he realizes that the current young generations look at him the same way he looked at his goaltending heroes.

You'd get a lot more traction if you weren't [mod edit: condescending]

If your point is that the "perspectives of most people" are wrong and that the old goalies are "not actually the greatest," then maybe this discussion isn't for you.

 

[Michael Farkas]

He's implying that he knows his childhood heroes are not actually the greatest; that hockey has improved, that goaltenders have improved

Not a loaded question, you think the position of goaltender was better in the 70s than the 60s...?

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Ok, so bad goals do matter even if you're clearly an elite puck stopper by the stats, right? Because sometimes that doesn't matter, or so I've read.

Brodeur is top 10 all time in GAA. And that's the name of the game, right? Not allowing goals.

Also, it's a common misconception that Brodeur always played for a defensive juggernaut. Even in the DPE.

Yes, the Lemaire Devils were a very conservative bunch. But any more of a "defensive juggernaut" than Pat Burns with Patrick Roy? Or Toe Blake with Jacques Plante? Or...

The Robbie Ftorek Devils were much different. They were more aggressive. Just a sampling can be gleaned here, because I don't think anyone wants to sit through a complete tactical breakdown because I'm not gonna break buzzword-led stereotypes in this post...



I mean, look at this mess from NJ. There isn't five guys on a screen, sometimes there's only two. There's guys diving all over the floor, not a staple of Devils hockey, odd-man rushes. These Devils teams were 2-men up. They attacked defenders at the breakout level as opposed to sitting back and attacking forwards at the center and defensive blue.

As a result, they lost to a more defensive Penguins team in 1999 to save their franchise...ironically enough.

Obviously, Brodeur transitioned out of the DPE into a wide open lockout era where he couldn't necessarily have had a "defensive juggernaut". He proceeds to win multiple Vezinas, finish near the top for others, was a prime candidate in the Hart discussion, etc. Oh and MOST IMPORTANTLY (sonk) .920 save percentages! Hooray!

With Colin White's giant brain playing 22+ minutes on this "juggernaut", you know things are air tight haha

That's NJ...25 years of pure stalwart hockey...including the three-man aggressive forecheck and cycling game led by Ilya Kovalchuk and backed by #1 d-man Marek Zidlicky that got to the Final.

Ken Dryden...yeah, now, that's a guy that was really fighting it. 7 years with a roster three tiers better than everyone else, behind the guy that famously brought defensive cohesion everywhere he went, on a team with three #1 d-men, some of the best checkers of all time, in an unbalanced league...

Not Patrick Roy, on a team that carried on the legend of being a defensive team, with famously great checkers and defensive coaches...

Let's check out the 1986 Habs...you'll eventually see them on the screen against this Whaler breakout.



Look, I'm not saying that Brodeur didn't benefit from the trap (well, in a real sense...but in a faulty save pct.-led sense, probably not...his reputation seems irreparably damaged by something that he played behind for about five years of his 20 year career). I just never understand why it's applied so heavily to Brodeur and so lightly to every other goalie. As if everyone else was a disciple of the 1985 Oilers or something haha

These goalies are up here because they played for defensive teams for most of their careers. Otherwise, they wouldn't be recognized in the first place.

I'll be back to talk about the "bad goals theory"...

And Robbie Ftorek didn't finish his 2nd season with the Devils, he was fired.

With Ftorek at the helm Brodeur also had two of his worst seasons, while in his prime. Alo his worst playoff performance ever.

Seems to me the Ftorek example makes my point, not yours.

 

[Michael Farkas]

And Robbie Ftorek didn't finish his 2nd season with the Devils, he was fired.

With Ftorek at the helm Brodeur also had two of his worst seasons, while in his prime. Alo his worst playoff performance ever.

Seems to me the Ftorek example makes my point, not yours.

That's fine. I don't mind that at all. I'll argue both sides for a while because I just want to get going in the right direction overall. Those two top-5 Vezina seasons are notably two of the seasons where folks don't point to "look at his backup! Anyone could do it!"

So, we're basically at:
- It's the system! Look, even his backups do the same in the 9 minutes they play!
"Well, not always...what about these years in the DPE when they didn't really play like that? Even if we ignore the rest of his career for some reason..."
- See! It was the system!
"Well...now he's put distance between him and his backups statistically...which people love to take at face value.
- He had the worst playoffs of his career because the coach didn't play Lemaire's trap!
"That's probably not true. But even if it was, then that means we can put the 'constant defensive juggernaut' nonsense to bed, right?"
- ...

So, I have a whole bunch more post there that I think is more pertinent than this Abbott and...Abbott routine that I'm doing here...

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Arguing both sides is a good skill to develop - I'm pretty good at poking holes in my own arguments, especially about goaltenders.

 

[Michael Farkas]

It's something I used to do with one hockey friend group versus another just to keep myself sharp haha

But more to the point here, this is reason #1,001 that proper talent evaluation is so important because this whole thing, this whole argument is just flapping in the breeze right now...

It's the system.
He didn't play the system in the following seasons.
...see!

Is just not a principled path. Don't you think it sucks for me that Brodeur is great? I'm really keen about trying to pick off goalies that were propped by their defensive structure (categorically), this would be such an easy one...it's literally the thing that comes to mind in one's mental rolodex when you say "trap" or "defensive hockey" or whatever...it'd be the easiest thing in the world to go along with that...

Instead..........we really have to recognize what a great talent this player was.