HOH Top 60 Goaltenders of All Time (2024 Edition) - Preliminary Discussion Thread

[rmartin65]

Early hockey, with all the different leagues and with how hard it was for people to see more than just the goalies in their specific region, are a mess, haha.

From the Winnipeg Tribune, 29 February 1944 Page 14- Herb Manning had a column called One Man's Opinion. A Mr. L.F. Earl wrote into the column, an excerpt is quoted below:

Larry Armstrong, so Herb Manning writes, also picked an all-time, all-star hockey team and gave Jack Winchester, who used to play with the Winnipeg Maple Leafs, the place in goals. I don't agree with that. Given my choice of all the puck-stoppers, it would be a toss-up between Dutchy Morrison and Charlie Gardiner

Manning concluded the piece by stating that "Hockey has had many greats, but for speed, elusiveness, speed and accuracy of shooting, and stamina, there was only one Phillips"

I tracked down the Larry Armstrong team (Winnipeg Tribune, 15 February 1944 page 12)-

Goal: Jack Winchester
Defense: Hod Stuart and Eddie Shore
Center: Dick Ivin
RW: Tommy Phillips
LW: Alf Smith

Armstrong also claimed that Dick Irvin "was the greatest product of Canadian hockey"

Comment: I'd flip the wings

Some neat observations and group of names come from (I think) Harry Scott in the Calgary Albertan, 25 February 1930 Page 6

To set the stage, apparently "Somebody has bobbed up with an output of ideas that includes Clint Benedict of the Montreal Maroons as the best goalie of all time and now the bags are off, all equal at the post with the loudest talker crossing the wire first"

But this goalie business! My, Oh my! Everybody has a different candidate and there's really no way, you know, to settle the argument. There is Tiny Thompson, George Hainsworth, Hal Winkler, the late George Vezina, Hainsworth, Worters, John Ross Roach, Fred Dulmage, Harry "Dutchy" Morrison, Benedict and Charley Quinn. They're all great. They all stop 'em and they all miss 'em and a lot depends on those two big guys who are standing in front of them, don't forget that"

The best goalie we ever say, and in fact played with, was George Vezina, who guarded the nets for the Montreal Canadiens for so many years. The games goalkeeper of 'em all was Fred Dulmage, formerly of Fort William. Dulmage never knew what it was to wear shin pads or a chest protector. The only protection he ever had was a magazine shoved under each stocking

Tiny Thompson or Worters appear to be the best of the present day next custodians. Of course, the former has by far the better defence in front of him

I see a lot of the same discussions we are having all these years later

 

[Michael Farkas]

Ok, some more goalie chains are starting to become evident to me...

Jacques Plante -> Bernie Parent (sort of) -> Martin Brodeur

Plante is kind of a style all his own in his time, just like Brodeur was in his. Plante is a nut for angles, this might be the most positional integrity in history up to this point. Maybe ever relative to equipment sizes. Plante also came out of the net a lot to blow up challenged and poor shooters. He plays the puck a ton...and he'll play it to forwards too. It's a wonder he only has six assists in his career. I have my doubts about that just on the sheer frequency of his puck touches. I don't think a goalie touches a puck more until Barrasso/Hextall, and even then I think it's closer than you might think.

A lot of guys talk about how they weren't very good skaters (Bower, Worsley, etc.) and therefore they played net. Plante was asthmatic, so that was a factor, but Plante's a great skater.

I see the positionally strong game in Parent, but Parent isn't as good of a skater and is a relatively poor puck player. The way he moves in the crease is similar. He's quieter than Plante certainly.

Then Brodeur clearly has a lot of Plante in him. The puck playing, the angles, the anticipation, the rules made against him, and the direct challenging of compromised shooters. I feel like Brodeur might be the end of the Plante chain. It doesn't seem like anyone has quite gotten it since then.

I'd say if you like Plante and have him high, Brodeur should be very high too. You'd also like Parent over his contemporaries, like Tony O and Cheevers, for instance.

I've seen a few games of Plante with the Rangers in the mid 60s. The Rangers are a poor defensive club, especially near their net. When you watch playoff games in this era, there are not a lot of "A" chances going back and forth. It's tight. And guys are better than you think, I'm watching guys like Jack Evans deking guys...but when you get close to the net, it gets tight.

The Rangers allow a ton of odd-man rushes, breakaways, and can't clear rebounds. They aren't hard to play against. I also don't want to excuse Plante in this case...he looks dejected. He's normally on his toes, active, and engaged...he doesn't look particularly healthy. He isn't playing well, flat out. But I don't know how much it would have mattered even if he wasn't well on in years. He doesn't look right. Not close to what he was a few years before and, really, a few years after...where there is some pop in the expansion era.

Also, he was the best goalie statistically on his team in the WHA in 1975 at 46 years old or whatever he was...that's so crazy. I don't care if all 30 of his games were against the Hooptyville Honeydrips or whatever nonsense was in the WHA at that point, that's a long way from where he started.

##

I'm not quite back to Brimsek yet (however far I'll get film-wise), but it looks like Brimsek -> Bower -> [later stand-ups] is pretty clear. They really don't like to drop very much. They're very square-shaped. Bower is economical, but he can move in the crease. He doesn't swim around, he gets right back up to try to make a play.

That's the other thing that I notice...the very best guys in the O6 really fight for second chances. They really battle to get back into it if they're knocked out of it. Guys like Worsley and Bassen don't fight as much to my eye. They make their play, and that's that. Mobility issues probably play a role there (though Worsley is oddly good at kicking pucks away).

I already detailed the butterfly chain in a previous post, so I won't repeat that.

 

[overpass]

I've gone through the thread about all-time teams by old-time players, and counted the number of times various old-time goalies appear on lists.

All Time Best Players - Lists by their contemporaries

I always found it interesting to hear what was said about the hockey players of the early era (Pre World War II). Naturally we know the least about these players as we have very limited footage available from games, a few 30 second clips here and there. Very few people are alive today who...

forums.hfboards.com

Here are the names in table form.

Goalie	Named by	Date	Role	Relationship	Rank
Paddy Moran	Lester Patrick	1927​	Player/Coach/GM/Owner	Opponent	Best retired (tied)
Percy Lesueur	Lester Patrick	1927​	Player/Coach/GM/Owner	Opponent	Best retired (tied)
Georges Vezina	Gene Tunney	1930​	Sportsman, non-hockey		Best
George Hainsworth	Aurel Joliat	1937​	Goalie	Teammate	Best of recent times
Georges Vezina	Aurel Joliat	1937​	Player	Teammate	Best old-timer
Alec Connell	Conn Smythe	1938​	GM	Opponent	Best
Charlie Gardiner	Hap Holmes	1938​	Goalie	Opponent	Best
Georges Vezina	Jack Adams	1938​	Player/Coach/GM	Opponent	Best
Georges Vezina	Charles Querrie	1938​	Coach/GM/Owner	Opponent	Best
Hugh Lehman	Si Griffis	1938​	Player	Teammate/opponent	Best
Hugh Lehman	Lester Patrick	1938​	Player/Coach/GM/Owner	Opponent	Best
Roy Worters	Hap Holmes	1938​	Goalie	Opponent	Mention
Tiny Thompson	Hap Holmes	1938​	Goalie		Mention
Charlie Gardiner	Baz O'Meara	1939​	Sportswriter		Best (tied)
Clint Benedict	Baz O'Meara	1939​	Sportswriter		Best (tied)
Tiny Thompson	Red Dutton	1939​	Player	Opponent	Best
Frank Brimsek	Art Ross	1940​	Player/Coach	Coach	Best
Clint Benedict	Bill O'Brien	1941​	Trainer	Teammate	Best of modern hockey
Georges Vezina	Sprague Cleghorn	1941​	Player	Teammate/opponent	Best
Roy Worters	Lionel Conacher	1941​	Player	Teammate/opponent	Best
Riley Hern	Bill O'Brien	1941​	Trainer		Best old-timer
Charlie Gardiner	Ebbie Goodfellow	1942​	Player	Opponent	Second
Clint Benedict	Leo Dandurand	1942​	Coach/GM	Opponent	Best
Hap Holmes	Duke Keats	1942​	Player	Teammate/opponent	Best
Tiny Thompson	Ebbie Goodfellow	1942​	Player	Opponent	Best
Charlie Gardiner	Cooper Smeaton	1943​	Referee		Best of recent times
Charlie Gardiner	Jim Hendy	1943​	GM/sportswriter		Second best of 30s
Roy Worters	Jim Hendy	1943​	GM/sportswriter		Third best of 30s
Tiny Thompson	Jim Hendy	1943​	GM/sportswriter		best of 30s
Georges Vezina	Cooper Smeaton	1943​	Referee		Best old-timer
Charlie Gardiner	L.F. Earl	1944​	Sportswriter		Tied for best
Clint Benedict	Mickey Ion	1944​	Referee		Best of the 20s
Dutchy Morrison	L.F. Earl	1944​	Sportswriter		Tied for best
George Hainsworth	Mickey Ion	1944​	Referee		Best of the 30s (tied)
Georges Vezina	Mickey Ion	1944​	Referee		Best
Georges Vezina	Alf Smith	1944​	Player		Best
Jack Winchester	Larry Armstrong	1944​	Coach		Best
Tiny Thompson	Mickey Ion	1944​	Referee		Best of the 30s (tied)
Alec Connell	Frank Nighbor	1945​	Player	Teammate	Mention
Clint Benedict	Frank Nighbor	1945​	Player	Teammate	Mention
Tiny Thompson	Dit Clapper	1945​	Player	Teammate	Best
Charlie Gardiner	Beattie Ramsay	1946​	Player/Coach		Best
Tiny Thompson	Gizzy Hart	1946​	Player		Best
Percy Lesueur	Cyclone Taylor	1947​	Player	Teammate/opponent	Best
Clint Benedict	Tommy Gorman	1948​	Coach/GM	Coach	Best
George Hainsworth	Newsy Lalonde	1948​	Player	None	Best
Bill Durnan	Frank Selke	1949​	GM	GM	Best of 40-49
Georges Vezina	Frank Selke	1949​	GM	None	Best of pre-1926
Alec Connell	Frank Selke	1949​	GM	None	Best of 27-39
Bill Durnan	Frank Boucher	1950​	Player/Coach		Mention
Charlie Gardiner	Frank Boucher	1950​	Player/Coach	Opponent	Best
George Hainsworth	Bill Cook	1952​	Player	Teammate/opponent	Best
Roy Worters	Nels Stewart	1952​	Player	Teammate	Best
Charlie Gardiner	Lionel Conacher	1953​	Player	Teammate	Second best
Roy Worters	Lionel Conacher	1953​	Player	Teammate	Best
Bill Durnan	Sylvio Mantha	1955​	Player		Best
Bill Durnan	Lynn Patrick	1958​	Player/Coach	Opponent	Best
Terry Sawchuk	Maurice Richard	1958​	Player	Opponent	Dream team
George Hainsworth	Wildor Larochelle	1959​	Player	Teammate	Best
Bill Durnan	Fern Flaman	1960​	Player	Opponent	Best of 1944-1960
Frank Brimsek	Fern Flaman	1960​	Player	Teammate	Best of 1944-1960 (#2)
Frank Brimsek	Frank Selke	1961​	GM	Opponent	Best of 36-46
Terry Sawchuk	Frank Selke	1961​	GM	Opponent	Best of 46-60, non Montreal
Charlie Gardiner	Foster Hewitt	1961​	Announcer		Best
Bill Durnan	Maurice Richard	1971​	Player	Teammate	Best
Frank Brimsek	Maurice Richard	1971​	Player	Opponent	Second best
Bill Durnan	Arthur Therrien	1974​	Coach		Mention
Charlie Gardiner	Arthur Therrien	1974​	Coach		Mention
Frank Brimsek	Arthur Therrien	1974​	Coach		Mention
Jacques Plante	Arthur Therrien	1974​	Coach		Mention
Terry Sawchuk	Arthur Therrien	1974​	Coach		Mention

Pre-NHL
Percy Lesueur: 2
Dutchy Morrison: 1
Jack Winchester: 1
Paddy Moran: 1
Riley Hern: 1

Not much love for the real old-timers, and nobody stands out as a consensus best from this era.

Early NHL/split league era
Georges Vezina: 9
Clint Benedict: 6
Hugh Lehman: 2
Hap Holmes: 1

Vezina and Benedict stand out as the two best of their era. No surprise.

Vezina received 6 votes as the unqualified best, and 3 as the best old-timer/best of his era. Benedict had 3 unqualified best votes, one for the best of modern hockey, one for the best of the 1920s, and one mention.

3 of Benedict's supporters were his teammates/coaches, and only 2 of Vezina's were his teammates/coaches. Holmes and Lehman each had one teammate name them.

After removing teammates/coaches and removing any second/third place or mentions:

Georges Vezina: 7
Clint Benedict: 4
Hugh Lehman: 1

Vezina stands out more by this analysis than he does on the 1925 Macleans all-time team. Most times mentioned among his contemporaries by 50%, twice as many unqualified best votes as Benedict, and easily the most votes by non-teammates. Unaffiliated individuals who picked Vezina were boxer Gene Tunney, player and coach Jack Adams, coach/GM/owner Charlie Querrie, referees Cooper Smeaton and Mickey Ion, old-time player and coach Alf Smith, and GM Frank Selke.

1927-1940
Charlie Gardiner: 11
Tiny Thompson: 7
George Hainsworth: 5
Roy Worters: 4
Alec Connell: 3

After removing teammates/coaches and removing any second/third place or mentions:

Charlie Gardiner: 7
Tiny Thompson: 5
George Hainsworth: 2
Alec Connell: 2
Roy Worters: 0

Charlie Gardiner stands out as the best of his era, with Tiny Thompson #2. I'm not surprised by Gardiner -- he had the peak that mainstream fans think George Hainsworth had. I didn't realize Thompson had so many supporters as an all-time goalie. Red Dutton, Ebbie Goodfellow, and Gizzy Hart rated him best all time, and Jim Hendy and Mickey Ion had him as best of his decade.

Worters was supported by former teammates Lionel Conacher and Nels Stewart as the best of all time, but no non-teammates. Overall, Worters didn't get as many votes as the best as you might expect from his Hart/All-Star voting record.

1940s
Bill Durnan: 7
Frank Brimsek: 5

Removing any votes that aren't for the best and removing any teammate votes:

Bill Durnan: 4
Frank Brimsek: 2

That seems pretty clear. Durnan was remembered as the #1 of the 40s, and Brimsek as the #2. Add Durnan's #1 rating by Sport Magazine's 1958 poll of 70 media members for additional confirmation.

No mention of Turk Broda. Has he been overrated when we look at his era through a modern lens where the Stanley Cup playoffs are more important than the league results? His contemporaries didn't seem to think he was the best of his era.

Overall: Georges Vezina, Charlie Gardiner, and Bill Durnan are the best of their eras as later remembered by their contemporaries. Clint Benedict, Tiny Thompson, and Frank Brimsek are next.

 

[rmartin65]

I've gone through the thread about all-time teams by old-time players, and counted the number of times various old-time goalies appear on lists.

All Time Best Players - Lists by their contemporaries

I always found it interesting to hear what was said about the hockey players of the early era (Pre World War II). Naturally we know the least about these players as we have very limited footage available from games, a few 30 second clips here and there. Very few people are alive today who...

forums.hfboards.com

Pre-NHL
Percy Lesueur: 2
Dutchy Morrison: 1
Jack Winchester: 1
Paddy Moran: 1
Riley Hern: 1

Not much love for the real old-timers, and nobody stands out as a consensus best from this era.

Early NHL/split league era
Georges Vezina: 9
Clint Benedict: 6
Hugh Lehman: 2
Hap Holmes: 1

Vezina and Benedict stand out as the two best of their era. No surprise.

Vezina received 6 votes as the unqualified best, and 3 as the best old-timer/best of his era. Benedict had 3 unqualified best votes, one for the best of modern hockey, one for the best of the 1920s, and one mention.

3 of Benedict's supporters were his teammates/coaches, and only 2 of Vezina's were his teammates/coaches. Holmes and Lehman each had one teammate name them.

After removing teammates/coaches and removing any second/third place or mentions:

Georges Vezina: 7
Clint Benedict: 4
Hugh Lehman: 1

Vezina stands out more by this analysis than he does on the 1925 Macleans all-time team. Most times mentioned among his contemporaries by 50%, twice as many unqualified best votes as Benedict, and easily the most votes by non-teammates. Unaffiliated individuals who picked Vezina were boxer Gene Tunney, player and coach Jack Adams, coach/GM/owner Charlie Querrie, referees Cooper Smeaton and Mickey Ion, old-time player and coach Alf Smith, and GM Frank Selke.

1927-1940
Charlie Gardiner: 11
Tiny Thompson: 7
George Hainsworth: 5
Roy Worters: 4
Alec Connell: 3

After removing teammates/coaches and removing any second/third place or mentions:

Charlie Gardiner: 7
Tiny Thompson: 5
George Hainsworth: 2
Alec Connell: 2
Roy Worters: 0

Charlie Gardiner stands out as the best of his era, with Tiny Thompson #2. I'm not surprised by Gardiner -- he had the peak that mainstream fans think George Hainsworth had. I didn't realize Thompson had so many supporters as an all-time goalie. Red Dutton, Ebbie Goodfellow, and Gizzy Hart rated him best all time, and Jim Hendy and Mickey Ion had him as best of his decade.

Worters was supported by former teammates Lionel Conacher and Nels Stewart as the best of all time, but no non-teammates. Overall, Worters didn't get as many votes as the best as you might expect from his Hart/All-Star voting record.

1940s
Bill Durnan: 7
Frank Brimsek: 5

Removing any votes that aren't for the best and removing any teammate votes:

Bill Durnan: 4
Frank Brimsek: 2

That seems pretty clear. Durnan was remembered as the #1 of the 40s, and Brimsek as the #2. Add Durnan's #1 rating by Sport Magazine's 1958 poll of 70 media members for additional confirmation.

No mention of Turk Broda. Has he been overrated when we look at his era through a modern lens where the Stanley Cup playoffs are more important than the league results? His contemporaries didn't seem to think he was the best of his era.

Overall: Georges Vezina, Charlie Gardiner, and Bill Durnan are the best of their eras as later remembered by their contemporaries. Clint Benedict, Tiny Thompson, and Frank Brimsek are next.

This is really interesting; thanks for doing the legwork to put it together. A couple comments/questions-

I respectfully suggest adding Russell Bowie's selection of Paddy Moran as the most difficult goalie he faced to the table (source: Montreal Gazette, 5 April 1934). He didn't pick a full team, but since we are only talking about goalies, I think it should count.

You wrote "Not much love for the real old-timers, and nobody stands out as a consensus best from this era.", and I am wondering if that is fair. Are the real old-timers' contemporaries voting for other (later) goalies for the best of all time, or do we simply have fewer lists available from their contemporaries?

 

[Michael Farkas]

Thanks for that @overpass - I was gonna ask tonight if anyone had put something like that together, as I was looking around a bit.

My understanding, and someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but Stan Fischler's sometimes-changing list is:
Old-timers: Vezina
War-era: Durnan/Broda very close

He also personally told me once that Broda should be top 5 all time after being presented with our top 20 goalies from the 2012 project.

While I think Worters made his top 100 list of all time in the 1980's, he's far behind those guys. And given his knowledge of (and perhaps bias to) New York teams, it seems like maybe we have breadcrumbs to suggest that Worters was a true definition of an MVP, but not the best goalie.

I'm not there yet, but I'm wondering if that's how I'm going to end up feeling about Rogie Vachon too...Vachon nabbed two top-3 Hart finishes in '75 and '77 - the only two years in career there where they won more than half of their games except '76, when Vachon played his fewest games as a King (51).

 

[nabby12]

It might be time to send out a PM to everyone, with instructions on how to send in the Top 80 lists if the deadline is Friday.

FWIW, I have Gardiner, Broda, Brimsek, Benedict, Worters all inside or hovering near the top 10.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I have these guys all inside or hovering near the top 10:

Patrick Roy

Dominik Hasek

Martin Brodeur

Carey Price

Andrei Vasilevskiy

Vladislav Tretiak

Jacques Plante

 

[jigglysquishy]

I have these guys all inside or hovering near the top 10:

Patrick Roy

Dominik Hasek

Martin Brodeur

Carey Price

Andrei Vasilevskiy

Vladislav Tretiak

Jacques Plante

This will be unconventional, but defendable. I think as long as you actually make your case you can convince people.

A trophy-case/Vezina-finish argument won't put either of them top 15, but I think a pure talent evaluation could.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Pure talent evaluation makes it really kind of a lay-up, actually...but that's not what everyone likes, so I've been cultivating (and annoying people) to get some general thoughts, plus stuff I can find laying around about some guys from recent times... (I'm not asking people, "tell me why Carey Price is so good...be as effusive as possible." That's disingenuous.)

I'm going to try to churn out some of those snippets tonight if time permits so that folks who want to make the necessary* adjustments can do so with their initial lists.

* - You may already have Price and Vasilevskiy very high, so no adjustment would be necessary haha

 

[Dr John Carlson]

It might be time to send out a PM to everyone, with instructions on how to send in the Top 80 lists if the deadline is Friday.

Indeed. I've been sending out PMs to posters who are less active in the thread to try and gauge interest, but tonight I'll be sending out a PM to everyone as a last reminder. I think we will get a pretty solid turnout.

 

[Professor What]

FWIW, I have Gardiner, Broda, Brimsek, Benedict, Worters all inside or hovering near the top 10.

I'm glad you said that. I went to look at where I had those guys on my list, and I'd left Worters off somehow. Made me feel stupid.

 

[Professor What]

Indeed. I've been sending out PMs to posters who are less active in the thread to try and gauge interest, but tonight I'll be sending out a PM to everyone as a last reminder. I think we will get a pretty solid turnout.

If you need help sending out PMs, let me know.

 

[jigglysquishy]

I don't think I'll have anyone unconventional in my top 10/15.

One thing I will note though, based purely on contemporary opinion, Charlie Gardiner has to be near the tops. Already by his third or fourth NHL season people talk of him as the all time greatest.

He loses a lot longevity wise. But based on contemporary opinion, I don't see much separating Dryden and Gardiner.

 

[nabby12]

I don't think I'll have anyone unconventional in my top 10/15.

One thing I will note though, based purely on contemporary opinion, Charlie Gardiner has to be near the tops. Already by his third or fourth NHL season people talk of him as the all time greatest.

He loses a lot longevity wise. But based on contemporary opinion, I don't see much separating Dryden and Gardiner.

Amen. Gardiner was the best goaltender in the NHL from the time he entered the league, to when he sadly passed away prematurely in 1934.

Perhaps I'm biased though, as I'm working on a book about his life with his family at the moment!

 

[Professor What]

I don't think I'll have anyone unconventional in my top 10/15.

One thing I will note though, based purely on contemporary opinion, Charlie Gardiner has to be near the tops. Already by his third or fourth NHL season people talk of him as the all time greatest.

He loses a lot longevity wise. But based on contemporary opinion, I don't see much separating Dryden and Gardiner.

I've got Gardiner just outside of the top 10. I think the only reason he's that low is the lack of longevity. He's so often see as being close to Vezina I've got to think that if he'd lived and had a normal career arc he'd be seen as ahead of Vezina and Brimsek. If he had the longevity, I think he'd be the one to crack that top 8. I just see him being locked out by the short career. Obviously, I'm not blaming him, but what happened happened.

 

[ContrarianGoaltender]

I think this is probably a better representation of it, it's a great point by you. I guess I thought I'd scare people off by using Dan Bouchard because his numbers are bad. I will say that depending on how you slice butterfly up might change the chain.

Disagree that Dan Bouchard's numbers are bad (well, regular season at least, his playoff sample isn't terrific albeit very limited by the best-of-3 first rounds of that era). Bouchard's stats relative to teammates jump off the page as showing a guy who had obvious talent. As a numbers guy, I've long been quite high on him (he made my top 40 last time, should be top 50ish this time).

Lindmark has a lot of question marks and he's not on my list either but ranking Irbe above Králík is going to far. Králík has a legit case being the best goalie in the world for one season. Irbe played for long and stayed an NHL starter for an impressive amount of time. But he never came close to any kind of trophy or achievement suggesting he belongs in the most upper tier of Gs, or did he?

Take a look at Králík's 1985. The only non-USSR player ever winning the Izvestia trophy (=Best European Player award) between 1979-1989 was Jiří Králík. Makarov, Fetisov, Krutov, Mikhailov, Tretiak and... Jiří Králík in 1985... These were the winners of the award for best player in Europe. This coincides with the Czechs winning their only 1980s championship in 1985, defeating the Soviets and the Canadians (with probably their best on-paper team they gathered and sent to Europe over that decade).

Jiří Králík was universally acclaimed as the best player of that championship winning team by the coaches and the media. He swept all the awards. What gives more credence to Králík '85 version is his domestic performance. He made his club ("Gottwaldov") a contender in this season. Before, Gottwaldov was a middling team bouncing between the 1st and 2nd league. By the end of 1985, I think it was Luděk Bukač, who also quit the National team after '85 after his 5-year tenure, who summarized the 1st half of the 1980s as a dip of Czechoslovak hockey because it lacked the players of Martinec, Holeček, Pospíšil calibre... and that only Králík reached their level.

Domestic and international stats also support him.

Králík was a late bloomer who peaked in his 30s. His case lies on 3 high-end seasons (1982, 1983, 1985). That is not a lot... But there is also nothing to dispute about those 3 seasons. Quotes, award votes, stats... If a non-NHL Euro goalie checks all of these boxes, his case for really being good is a lot more substantiated than just relying on two quotes from his teammates while recording terrible SV%, or conversely looking at great stats while not factoring in any domestic or international all-star votes etc. Králík is in my top-70.

I'm not saying don't rank Kralik, I'm just arguing that maybe Irbe should be higher. Part of this comes down to how you rate peak vs. career, and how you interpret career arcs (I'm not saying we should completely distrust late bloomers, but everything counts, and most goalies don't get the framing of "look at these 3 good years and ignore the rest"). It also has to do with how you rate the depth of the goalie talent pool in 1985 vs. the 1990s/2000s.

Kralik's domestic play is absolutely important to consider, and I agree it makes him a serious candidate for the list. But with respect to his international career, he also has the following on his record:

1979 WC: Arguably the worst performance by a Czechoslovakian starting goalie from 1964-1992 at a WC, including 24 saves on 34 shots in two GP against the Soviets

1980 Olympics: Arguably the worst performance by a Czechoslovakian starting goalie from 1964-1992 at an Olympics, with 11 GA in the 2 crucial games against USA/Sweden

1981 Canada Cup: Plays 19 minutes backing up Karel Lang

1984 Canada Cup: Either doesn't make the team or doesn't play

1984 Olympics: Plays 1 game and shuts out Austria, Jaromir Sindel plays the rest and puts up a 1.50/.954

And that's pretty much it, other than some Izvestia appearances where he mostly did well against Sweden/Finland and less so against the Soviets.

Arturs Irbe, on the other hand, burst onto the scene at the age of 21 while touring with Dynamo Riga in the 1988 Super Series against NHLers where he was widely praised, playing behind a relatively weak squad. He then had a short but seemingly strong run on a great team very early in his international career for the USSR:

1.72/.926 in 3 GP at the 1989 WC
1.60 GAA in 5 GP at the 1989 Izvestia
0.95/.950 in 6 GP at the 1990 WC
1.35/.930 in 5 GP at the 1990 Goodwill Games

He then played for Latvia where he led them to the world championship A group in 1996 and then proceeded to do this over the rest of his career:

World Championships for Latvia, 1997-2005:

Irbe: 21-13-7, 2.36, .913
Everyone else: 2-14-1, 3.83, .867

Obviously Irbe's backups are replacement level at best but his defence wasn't anything special either, and that gives him success on both powerhouses and underdogs. Hence why I'd argue that Irbe had the better international career (and definitely the more consistently strong one), even if you view Kralik as having a higher peak.

 

[rmartin65]

Lots of good discussion in this thread- I’m looking forward to the second round!

 

[jigglysquishy]

As a complete aside, the premier of Saskatchewan from 1926-1929 and 1934-35 had the last name Gardiner. Has made researching Charlie Gardiner a pain.

 

[Professor What]

Disagree that Dan Bouchard's numbers are bad (well, regular season at least, his playoff sample isn't terrific albeit very limited by the best-of-3 first rounds of that era). Bouchard's stats relative to teammates jump off the page as showing a guy who had obvious talent. As a numbers guy, I've long been quite high on him (he made my top 40 last time, should be top 50ish this time).



I'm not saying don't rank Kralik, I'm just arguing that maybe Irbe should be higher. Part of this comes down to how you rate peak vs. career, and how you interpret career arcs (I'm not saying we should completely distrust late bloomers, but everything counts, and most goalies don't get the framing of "look at these 3 good years and ignore the rest"). It also has to do with how you rate the depth of the goalie talent pool in 1985 vs. the 1990s/2000s.

Kralik's domestic play is absolutely important to consider, and I agree it makes him a serious candidate for the list. But with respect to his international career, he also has the following on his record:

1979 WC: Arguably the worst performance by a Czechoslovakian starting goalie from 1964-1992 at a WC, including 24 saves on 34 shots in two GP against the Soviets

1980 Olympics: Arguably the worst performance by a Czechoslovakian starting goalie from 1964-1992 at an Olympics, with 11 GA in the 2 crucial games against USA/Sweden

1981 Canada Cup: Plays 19 minutes backing up Karel Lang

1984 Canada Cup: Either doesn't make the team or doesn't play

1984 Olympics: Plays 1 game and shuts out Austria, Jaromir Sindel plays the rest and puts up a 1.50/.954

And that's pretty much it, other than some Izvestia appearances where he mostly did well against Sweden/Finland and less so against the Soviets.

Arturs Irbe, on the other hand, burst onto the scene at the age of 21 while touring with Dynamo Riga in the 1988 Super Series against NHLers where he was widely praised, playing behind a relatively weak squad. He then had a short but seemingly strong run on a great team very early in his international career for the USSR:

1.72/.926 in 3 GP at the 1989 WC
1.60 GAA in 5 GP at the 1989 Izvestia
0.95/.950 in 6 GP at the 1990 WC
1.35/.930 in 5 GP at the 1990 Goodwill Games

He then played for Latvia where he led them to the world championship A group in 1996 and then proceeded to do this over the rest of his career:

World Championships for Latvia, 1997-2005:

Irbe: 21-13-7, 2.36, .913
Everyone else: 2-14-1, 3.83, .867

Obviously Irbe's backups are replacement level at best but his defence wasn't anything special either, and that gives him success on both powerhouses and underdogs. Hence why I'd argue that Irbe had the better international career (and definitely the more consistently strong one), even if you view Kralik as having a higher peak.

Are we including Irbe on the strength of international play alone though? Especially in more modern eras (including Irbe's time), I don't see international play as being that big of a piece of the pie. You could argue that it was always watered down to an extent since Canada wasn't sending its best to tournaments outside of things like the Canada Cup, but I see most international play in recent years (excluding the Olympics when NHLers are involved) as being watered down since there are always key players missing. You're only playing in the world championships if your team failed to make/advance in the playoffs.

In Irbe's case, we're looking at roughly 40 international games, as compared to a lacking playoff resume that had about 50 games, and well over 500 regular season games. I always liked Irbe. I liked the idea that a guy who wasn't from one of the power nations could stick around for so long and be reasonably good while doing so, but I'm not sure I see the case for him on my list. We're going to complain about the quality of the guys we're getting to by the end of the list, but honestly, they're not going to be bad players.

 

[Michael Farkas]

they're not going to be bad players.

There absolutely will be some bad players haha

You have 80 guys that are better than Arturs Irbe? I certainly don't. I'm not done, but I can't imagine I'll get there. Who is your lowest guy on the list from the Irbe era just out of curiosity, no obligation...

It might be just that I haven't backfilled my list with everyone that I assume will be on it before expansion...

 

[Professor What]

There absolutely will be some bad players haha

You have 80 guys that are better than Arturs Irbe? I certainly don't. I'm not done, but I can't imagine I'll get there. Who is your lowest guy on the list from the Irbe era just out of curiosity, no obligation...

It might be just that I haven't backfilled my list with everyone that I assume will be on it before expansion...

Probably Sean Burke. I prefer Burke ever so slightly, but it's very slight. As I said a little while back, I feel like the last 25-30 names are kind of like noise. You could throw Irbe into the noise and he wouldn't look out of place. I just don't have him there right now. That said, I can be talked into something over the next couple of days. I think more than anything, the thing that struck me as strange was making a case for him over international play.

 

[Dr John Carlson]

Okay, I've got PMs sent out to everyone - I think, unless I missed somebody, which is possible. Our target is to get 20 lists, and I think we can reach that, with maybe one or two extra to boot.

 

[Michael Farkas]

If a Capitals fan PMs me ever again, I'll quit this site forever. Buzz off, Dr. John.

Re: Burke/Irbe. Ok, Burke is holding in my watchlist right now. I had a former pro goalie tell me that he should be on my "C" list. Either way, it sounds pretty close. So, it could be on me and how I'm constructing the list by mostly going backwards through time.

Speaking of going backwards through time, I'm going back forward a bit again now that I've taken a deeper look at what the O6 goalies had to offer. Some of the 70's and early 80's guys were getting a little abstract for me, so I needed to ground myself (i.e. eye bleach) a bit...

This is sort of a zone that I think is undersold due to numbers, so I'm just gonna say things...

No: Gilles Villemure, Richard Brodeur, Don Beaupre (how the hell did he play so long? He has the mobility of a fireproof safe, ugh...he stinks. Whew...)

Yes: Gilles Meloche - he's another one that played for some impossibly bad teams: California, Cleveland, Minnesota, and "expansion #2 or 3" Pittsburgh. So, no chance of having numbers or accolades (except for a bit in Minnesota, that young team that never quite came to fruition). But this guy could play. He's thoughtful, anticipates well, shows surprisingly good anchoring and positional integrity despite his situation. Got his cage rattled quite a bit and allowed people in his crease to distract him more than I'd like, but overall this is a pretty good goalie.

On Meloche - Hockey News 1972:

It’s much too late to start talking Vezina Trophy possibilities for the California Golden Seals. At least for this season, anyway.

But is it so far-fetched in a couple of years when the Seals’ rookie goalie reaches his potential? Their new coach won’t rule out the idea. Vic Stasiuk calls his 21-year-old netminder Gilles Meloche “the next Terry Sawchuk.”

All right, that's a little far...but still...they weren't saying that about Murray Bannerman...

Hockey News 1976

The figures are impressive—six games, 17 goals against and a sparkling 2.83 goals-against average. The possessor of the statistics is a fine little goaltender who answers to the name of Gilles Meloche.

With figures like the ones above, one would expect a comparable won-lost record. Guess again.

Meloche, considered by many to be one of the best young netminders in the game, has just one victory to show for his efforts in the early stages of the 1976-77 National Hockey League season for the Cleveland Barons.

And it took a 3-0 shutout of the Chicago Black Hawks, for whom he once toiled, to get the one triumph. The only other non-loss was a 2-2 opening-game tie against the Los Angeles Kings.
The truth of the matter is his teammates don't score for him when Meloche is between the pipes. In the six games, he has been supported with 13 goals.

Compare that with the 16 goals the Barons have given Gary Simmons in his three starts and you can see why Simmons is unbeaten at this writing.

Hockey News 1978, following the Barons going 41 days without a win...

Throughout all the non-winning, Meloche never griped. That’s not his nature. But he had every reason to grouse about the play of his teammates.

The offense quit being offensive and the defense stopped being defensive. Tha leaves just one area to deal with the opponent. And Meloche was the best player during the siege.

Hockey News 1985 after trade to Pittsburgh

“Meloche was one of the outstanding goaltenders in the playoffs last year,” said Johnston. “He was sought-after by many clubs and we feel very fortunate in getting him.”

Johnston said he settled on Meloche when Sather demanded defenseman Doug Bodger for Moog. “They wanted Bodger,” Johnston said. “I said, ‘No.’ There was definitely no question.”

...

Pittsburgh’s4.78 goals-against average last season was the NHL’s second worst.

“One thing I will say about the goaltenders, after spending a lot of time looking at tapes, they got left alone an awful lot of the time in our own end by both the defense and the forwards,” said coach Bob Berry.

Meloche has been used to similar treatment during his NHL career.

“I’ve been through it all before,” he said. “Besides, if this team can improve this year as much as it did last year, we’ll be in pretty good shape.”

Hockey News 1974

Today, at the age of 24. Meloche is generally rated as one of the best goaltenders in the National Hockey League. As he graduated through the various stages of bantam and junior hockey Meloche was attracting the attention of major league scouts whose intelligence reports told of the remarkable talents of this youngster in fighting off the frozen chunks of rubber poured on him in game after game.

He was twice selected to the first All Star team during three seasons with the Verdun Juniors, the second time with a club that finished last in the league.

A standup goalie that grew up liking Glenn Hall and Roger Crozier, which is odd because he plays the opposite of them. But I like him. I'll see if I can find him a Seals game...I got a chunk of a Barons game vs. Pittsburgh called by Bob Prince (which is a wild ride for anyone that knows the old Pirates announcers), but he's not a player that had the luxury of making the playoffs very much...

 

[FerrisRox]

Amen. Gardiner was the best goaltender in the NHL from the time he entered the league, to when he sadly passed away prematurely in 1934.

Perhaps I'm biased though, as I'm working on a book about his life with his family at the moment!

Isn't he also the only goaltender to captain his team to a Stanley Cup Championship?

Did Bill Durnan do it? He was only captain one season I believe.

 

[MXD]

Since we're doing this... I have those five netminders at or hovering around 10, not necessarily in that order :

Terry	Sawchuk
Georges	Vezina
Clint	Benedict
Henrik	Lundqvist
Frank	Brimsek

Gilles Meloche is someone I had no clue what do to with. He's on the fringe, but trending in.