HOH Top 50 European Non-NHL Players of All Time
- Thread starter Theokritos
- Start date
The effort people here are putting on composing all those list is impressive.
My 25 cents: I don't believe having players from "old" era like 20s to 60s in same lists as players from 70s and forward. I don't even believe players from 30s shall be in same conversations as players from 60s.
I have watched hockey since early 70s and my eye test can grade players from that period and forward. With that said I can think some players don't belong on list, some are ranked too high, some I miss totally.
My 25 cents: I don't believe having players from "old" era like 20s to 60s in same lists as players from 70s and forward. I don't even believe players from 30s shall be in same conversations as players from 60s.
I have watched hockey since early 70s and my eye test can grade players from that period and forward. With that said I can think some players don't belong on list, some are ranked too high, some I miss totally.
Johnny Engine
Moderator
- Jul 29, 2009
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I'm wondering, do you believe that some sort of switch flipped in organized hockey around the time you started watching, and the players became legitimate athletes? And do you expect others to recognize that same moment in time? What does that say about a player like Alexander Ragulin, who was able to play for his national team before and presumably after you started watching?
In my experience with these dates, everyone has a different date that they throw out, and it's often arbitrary, and often directly tied to their own hockey-watching experience.
VMBM
Hansel?!
Er, because he was considered a somewhat better & more important player by many (including myself) in the 1980s?
For a while I thought that their post-Soviet careers, as well as Fetisov's slight 'slump' around 1980, was enough to rank Makarov higher (my initial list), but decided during the first voting that Makarov's NHL career wasn't that much more glorious (nor very meaningful criterion in any case) and Makarov had somewhat lesser seasons too, at least internationally; don't forget that in 1986-88 Krutov often had better tournaments than Makarov and was considered a better player at times and/or by some experts.
Not really a hard thing to 'get', when you compare their careers in the late 1970s/1980s. There are definitely more controversial choices in my opinion.
Sentinel
Registered User
"Important"? Probably true, given that USSR has not produced an elite, top level, generational defenseman before or after Fetisov. But the same is true for Tretiak. There hasn't been a Russian goalie anywhere near him before or after (+ 5 MVP titles), and what position is more important to the team than the goalie? By that rationale, #20 should be clear #1 on the list.
Makarov's post-Soviet success is tangible enough to make this call. He also had more MVP titles.
Makarov's post-Soviet success is tangible enough to make this call. He also had more MVP titles.
Theokritos
Global Moderator
- Apr 6, 2010
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My point about not blend hockey from the past with modern hockey is not related to my own age or when I started hockey. My post had two focal points:
1) it is not fair to mesh all players from 20s until today for a list of "the best". I prefer doing list for each era. The game has changed so much between 20s to 50s to 70s and etc.
2) I referred to my view since I started to watch hockey and stated that some players are too high, some too low. No biggie.
I am sorry if those two points got mixed.
Johnny Engine
Moderator
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It's all well and good to say that you don't like to compare players across history, but walking into discussion and saying "I don't like to think about this, stop it," doesn't add anything at all.
So you don't think Howie Morenz and Jaromir Jagr belong in the same comparison. That's a reasonable statement to make.
But can you compare Morenz to Toe Blake?
Can you compare Toe Blake to Gordie Howe?
Can you compare Gordie Howe to Phil Esposito?
Can you compare Phil Esposito to Wayne Gretzky?
Can you compare Wayne Gretzky to Jaromir Jagr?
Saying "no" to any of those questions requires drawing a line somewhere. If you can think of a way to draw that line for a serious reason you can back up, I'll hear it.
Canadiens1958
Registered User
Fluid
Still your defence of the list , like all others fails, to take into account the fluid nature of such lists, How and when historical surfaces, how it gets interpreted and what conclusions are drawn.
After all, a simple comparison of Frank Nighbor's ranking in the first list 2008(95th)compared to the latest 2013-14 centers(8th), speaks clearly to the fluid nature of such efforts. In 5 or 6 seasons Frank Nighbor, deceased in 1966 remained the same player that he was, the stats did not change. The only thing that changed was the mining of data, interpretation of same and the perceptions.
The same will happen with all other lists and players.
Criticism of lists should be encouraged.
Still your defence of the list , like all others fails, to take into account the fluid nature of such lists, How and when historical surfaces, how it gets interpreted and what conclusions are drawn.
After all, a simple comparison of Frank Nighbor's ranking in the first list 2008(95th)compared to the latest 2013-14 centers(8th), speaks clearly to the fluid nature of such efforts. In 5 or 6 seasons Frank Nighbor, deceased in 1966 remained the same player that he was, the stats did not change. The only thing that changed was the mining of data, interpretation of same and the perceptions.
The same will happen with all other lists and players.
Criticism of lists should be encouraged.
Sentinel
Registered User
This is what I just do not get. Maybe there was a larger gap between Fetisov and other defensmen, than between Tretiak and other goalies, but when you actually compare #2 to #20, the latter is clearly superior by the only reasonable metric: MVP awards.
Johnny Engine
Moderator
- Jul 29, 2009
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And what you've failed to consider is the basic point of the series of posts preceding yours. Nighbor's position on lists has risen because of people who repeatedly considered and contextualized his worth, and for someone to come in and say "well, you really can't compare these two things", is no criticism at all. It's an effort to shut down and abandon discussion, not to work harder on it. Obviously the lists are dynamic - history is dynamic. It's a reasonable point to make, but don't act like you have some kind of monopoly on perspective.
Canadiens1958
Registered User
Alternative
Alternative interpretation could be that people are encouraging further studies with the points they raise. Just earlier this week I came across some interesting Russian data for future discussions.Other European paths of inquiry do arise from such and other sources.
No one has a monopoly on perspective. I would entertain a perspective that the original 2008 may have some deficencies but I would defend its integrity.
Alternative interpretation could be that people are encouraging further studies with the points they raise. Just earlier this week I came across some interesting Russian data for future discussions.Other European paths of inquiry do arise from such and other sources.
No one has a monopoly on perspective. I would entertain a perspective that the original 2008 may have some deficencies but I would defend its integrity.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
if what you're saying is that the 2008 list was the best we could have done with the information available to us at the time, I agree, but that has precious little to do with what johnny and johan have been talking about. People can discuss the placement of players all they like, and they can discuss how interesting it is that new information and perspective can change the perception of a player over the years - but coming in and saying that these kinds of comparisons are invalid is a completely different kind of thing.
Canadiens1958
Registered User
Specifically
What I am saying and what no one has recognized is that the value of the lists may be found in their cumulative nature, taking all appropriate lists into consideration over time.
Similar to adjustments. Keystrokes about the merits of a specific method provide little benefit. Benefit comes from the cumulative effect of various methods, some flawed a bit more than others, if flawed at all, but at the end of the exercise of looking at various efforts a consensus surfaces.
The basic issue is outlined in post #52. here:
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=120917345&postcount=52
Johan F is in fact making a very historical valid point drawing the line at the 1969-70 IIHF rule changes.Historically a key demarcation point in International hockey. Nothing to do with flipping some switch or generating some linkage across eras. How far to each side we move from the 1969-70 season in the context of International hockey is open for discussion. Similar to the NHL and the introduction of the Red Line for the 1943-44 season. Stand alone event or conflated with WWII or further the impact on International hockey - USA amateur and International hockey did not adopt the Red Line until 1969-70.
This is the takeaway from Johan F's point.
What I am saying and what no one has recognized is that the value of the lists may be found in their cumulative nature, taking all appropriate lists into consideration over time.
Similar to adjustments. Keystrokes about the merits of a specific method provide little benefit. Benefit comes from the cumulative effect of various methods, some flawed a bit more than others, if flawed at all, but at the end of the exercise of looking at various efforts a consensus surfaces.
The basic issue is outlined in post #52. here:
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showpost.php?p=120917345&postcount=52
Johan F is in fact making a very historical valid point drawing the line at the 1969-70 IIHF rule changes.Historically a key demarcation point in International hockey. Nothing to do with flipping some switch or generating some linkage across eras. How far to each side we move from the 1969-70 season in the context of International hockey is open for discussion. Similar to the NHL and the introduction of the Red Line for the 1943-44 season. Stand alone event or conflated with WWII or further the impact on International hockey - USA amateur and International hockey did not adopt the Red Line until 1969-70.
This is the takeaway from Johan F's point.
tarheelhockey
Offside Review Specialist
Cross-posted for the sake of preserving quotes from this interview with Nedomansky: http://www.thehockeynews.com/news/a...he-international-hockey-legend-you-never-knew
The entire article is worth reading, but I thought it would be particularly valuable to have these passages about his experiences playing in the NHL.
SP: So you joined the WHA's Toronto Toros in 1974. But there was some disappointment in your play from management because they expected you to hit more, be more aggressive. Looking back, do you feel like such negative attitudes ever affected your play? Like you weren't being appreciated enough in North America for who you actually were as a hockey player?
VN: I played and grew up in a different system of hockey. It was developed on skills, playing fast, quickness, creative passing. In North America at that time, half of the players on a team weren't very good. But they were there for fighting...
I spoke with my closest friends, and sometimes in my career, they've said I should be more this or that. But I didn't feel I needed to do that because I scored 40 goals [then] 56 goals in Toronto, which is still a record in Maple Leafs Garden. I told them my speaking language would be scoring goals and passing.
I had a few fights, but it was just protecting myself. I would not be the aggressor. I was 30 years old when I came over, but I was very well trained. So if something was coming that was physical, I was able to quickly move away or use my skills.
SP: Going back to talking about goalies, you played with or against many of the greats besides Holeček and Tretiak. Eventually, you joined the Detroit Red Wings in 1977, facing the likes of Ken Dryden, Tony Esposito, and Rogie Vachon. Who was the toughest for you to beat?
[snip]
Because at that time, everybody was using the slap shot. And I would go more with the wrist shot. Even looking at old warm-up videos in Detroit from '78, everybody has a big slap shot, and I was using the wrist shot.
Goalies play differently now, they are much better because of size and athletic approach and different styles. For me, as a goal scorer, I was trying to use my skills and quickness to surprise goalies. Doesn't really matter who was in. If I could see that place where I could shoot, I would succeed many times.
SP: And who was the toughest defenseman on you?
VN: In Detroit, we played lots against Montreal. And I ended up always playing against Larry Robinson. He was difficult because he was big and strong.
At that time, physical play was really accepted. Many defensemen were not as good. They would try to chop you and spear you and hold you and all that stuff. Defending is easier than creating.
SP: In your final NHL year in 1983, you played for Herb Brooks in New York. It was said that you were a fan of his circular motion system. What are your memories of him?
VN: I was playing in Detroit and my contract expired. New ownership came, Mr. Illitch.
I went to New York because of [Brooks]. I had watched the Olympics, I had more or less studied all the teams.
I went into that training camp without a contract...just to play for him and make the team. I went to camp and I listened to him more and liked him very much. He liked me too. I was the oldest player at that time.
I played lots of power play. He sometimes told me, "Go and do whatever you like to do." I had 12 goals in about 30 games, almost all on the power play. It was exceptional, and I [credit] his smarts and our personal relationship for my play. I enjoyed him very much.
I only spent part of the season there. Because at that time, because I was signed as a free agent by the Rangers too late, I was available on waivers after my first game. I scored in my first game. I went into the dressing room, and Brooks told me, "Stop doing that! Somebody's going to pick you up."
The next day, I came into practice, and he told me, "St. Louis picked you up." So I had to go to St. Louis until Christmas. At that time, Emile Francis, who actually used to be the general manager of the Rangers, was the Blues GM.
In St. Louis, I played a special role, but I didn't like it much. Around Christmas time, I went to Emile and told him, "I liked it in New York, I'll like to go back." So I was traded with goalie Glen Hanlon back to New York.
That was really sad when I heard that he got killed in a car accident. He’s not alone. Lots of people I know [were killed that way]. For example, my friend Ivan Hlinka. He was a player and Penguins coach. That's very sad, and I always remember those dates.
SP: Speaking of the Rangers and Emile Francis, they were very interested in you as far back as 1967. Do you regret not defecting then? Do you think about the mark you could’ve made in the NHL if you had started as a 23-year-old?
VN: At that time, I was really young. I was happy to start to play with the national team. 19 years old. My original vision was actually to be a teacher. I studied physical education and biology. I thought if something bad happened to me in hockey, it'd be easy for me to do that job. I didn't think of the future more than that.
But when I was coming [to North American tournaments] to play hockey in '72, I ran into problems. The government wouldn't allow me to play and travel because I was visited by North American hockey people.
As a young man, I thought there would be more time, I just couldn't leave, immigrate at that time. I didn't regret that. Even though I came here so late, but still...I enjoyed my time.
The entire article is worth reading, but I thought it would be particularly valuable to have these passages about his experiences playing in the NHL.
SP: So you joined the WHA's Toronto Toros in 1974. But there was some disappointment in your play from management because they expected you to hit more, be more aggressive. Looking back, do you feel like such negative attitudes ever affected your play? Like you weren't being appreciated enough in North America for who you actually were as a hockey player?
VN: I played and grew up in a different system of hockey. It was developed on skills, playing fast, quickness, creative passing. In North America at that time, half of the players on a team weren't very good. But they were there for fighting...
I spoke with my closest friends, and sometimes in my career, they've said I should be more this or that. But I didn't feel I needed to do that because I scored 40 goals [then] 56 goals in Toronto, which is still a record in Maple Leafs Garden. I told them my speaking language would be scoring goals and passing.
I had a few fights, but it was just protecting myself. I would not be the aggressor. I was 30 years old when I came over, but I was very well trained. So if something was coming that was physical, I was able to quickly move away or use my skills.
SP: Going back to talking about goalies, you played with or against many of the greats besides Holeček and Tretiak. Eventually, you joined the Detroit Red Wings in 1977, facing the likes of Ken Dryden, Tony Esposito, and Rogie Vachon. Who was the toughest for you to beat?
[snip]
Because at that time, everybody was using the slap shot. And I would go more with the wrist shot. Even looking at old warm-up videos in Detroit from '78, everybody has a big slap shot, and I was using the wrist shot.
Goalies play differently now, they are much better because of size and athletic approach and different styles. For me, as a goal scorer, I was trying to use my skills and quickness to surprise goalies. Doesn't really matter who was in. If I could see that place where I could shoot, I would succeed many times.
SP: And who was the toughest defenseman on you?
VN: In Detroit, we played lots against Montreal. And I ended up always playing against Larry Robinson. He was difficult because he was big and strong.
At that time, physical play was really accepted. Many defensemen were not as good. They would try to chop you and spear you and hold you and all that stuff. Defending is easier than creating.
SP: In your final NHL year in 1983, you played for Herb Brooks in New York. It was said that you were a fan of his circular motion system. What are your memories of him?
VN: I was playing in Detroit and my contract expired. New ownership came, Mr. Illitch.
I went to New York because of [Brooks]. I had watched the Olympics, I had more or less studied all the teams.
I went into that training camp without a contract...just to play for him and make the team. I went to camp and I listened to him more and liked him very much. He liked me too. I was the oldest player at that time.
I played lots of power play. He sometimes told me, "Go and do whatever you like to do." I had 12 goals in about 30 games, almost all on the power play. It was exceptional, and I [credit] his smarts and our personal relationship for my play. I enjoyed him very much.
I only spent part of the season there. Because at that time, because I was signed as a free agent by the Rangers too late, I was available on waivers after my first game. I scored in my first game. I went into the dressing room, and Brooks told me, "Stop doing that! Somebody's going to pick you up."
The next day, I came into practice, and he told me, "St. Louis picked you up." So I had to go to St. Louis until Christmas. At that time, Emile Francis, who actually used to be the general manager of the Rangers, was the Blues GM.
In St. Louis, I played a special role, but I didn't like it much. Around Christmas time, I went to Emile and told him, "I liked it in New York, I'll like to go back." So I was traded with goalie Glen Hanlon back to New York.
That was really sad when I heard that he got killed in a car accident. He’s not alone. Lots of people I know [were killed that way]. For example, my friend Ivan Hlinka. He was a player and Penguins coach. That's very sad, and I always remember those dates.
SP: Speaking of the Rangers and Emile Francis, they were very interested in you as far back as 1967. Do you regret not defecting then? Do you think about the mark you could’ve made in the NHL if you had started as a 23-year-old?
VN: At that time, I was really young. I was happy to start to play with the national team. 19 years old. My original vision was actually to be a teacher. I studied physical education and biology. I thought if something bad happened to me in hockey, it'd be easy for me to do that job. I didn't think of the future more than that.
But when I was coming [to North American tournaments] to play hockey in '72, I ran into problems. The government wouldn't allow me to play and travel because I was visited by North American hockey people.
As a young man, I thought there would be more time, I just couldn't leave, immigrate at that time. I didn't regret that. Even though I came here so late, but still...I enjoyed my time.
Kühnhackl came in 50th?
That's beyond a disgrace.
You gotta be joking.
Easily a Top 5 non NHL European scorer of all time.
That's beyond a disgrace.
You gotta be joking.
Easily a Top 5 non NHL European scorer of all time.
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seventieslord
Student Of The Game
Kühnhackl came in 50th?
That's beyond a disgrace.
You gotta be joking.
Easily a Top 5 non NHL European scorer of all time.
Why?
tarheelhockey
Offside Review Specialist
No, 48th.
He played effectively his entire career in the German league, which produced few other world class players. How is that supposed to compare to the very best of the Russians and Czechs?
I saw a documentary about Firsov (in Russian) on youtube the other day.
He sounds really bitter about his treatment post-retirement. He says that he couldn't find any coaching or instructor jobs in Russia, so he went overseas, where they welcomed his knowledge of the game. He says he and Tikhonov had very different opinions on the direction of CSKA youth school, so he got buried in some trivial job in the "sports club". Claims that he developed a drinking problem because of this.
He also seems pretty bitter about not playing in Summit Series, although he doesn't state the reason nor proclaims that he would have been great.
He sounds really bitter about his treatment post-retirement. He says that he couldn't find any coaching or instructor jobs in Russia, so he went overseas, where they welcomed his knowledge of the game. He says he and Tikhonov had very different opinions on the direction of CSKA youth school, so he got buried in some trivial job in the "sports club". Claims that he developed a drinking problem because of this.
He also seems pretty bitter about not playing in Summit Series, although he doesn't state the reason nor proclaims that he would have been great.
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Kühnhackl came in 50th?
That's beyond a disgrace.
You gotta be joking.
Easily a Top 5 non NHL European scorer of all time.
Because he was an unstoppable force of nature who put up crazy numbers?
Well how many Czechs and Russians can match his production in international tournaments? Not more than a handful. And he did it on a wach ass team. Imagine Kühnhackl playing next two elite teammates. Pure carnage.
VMBM
Hansel?!
Kühnhackl came in 50th?
That's beyond a disgrace.
You gotta be joking.
Easily a Top 5 non NHL European scorer of all time.
Hopefully you're not suggesting that he should be in the top 5?
Had he been Russian, Czech or even Swedish, it would be so much easier to rank him. I can agree that he had the size, skills, strength and goal-scorer's touch to be in the top 30, but how does one prove such a thing? 'A big fish in a small pond syndrome'...
And heck, the list was 'made' by 10-13 people, so obviously it is not Gospel and is open for criticism.
VMBM
Hansel?!
Hmm, quite many actually, at least many Soviets. And you do realize that he mostly played against teams like Finland, USA (who always had terrible teams at the WHCs), East Germany etc for places 5-8, whereas the Soviet Union and Czechoslovakia played in the medal round for places 1-4? I mean, even Kühnhackl's teammate Holger Meitinger managed to win the scoring title in the 1981 WHC (another West German Ernst Höfner was 2nd!), but were they really among the best players of that tournament?
Someone did a breakdown (table) that showed Kühnhackl's scoring numbers vs other nations, and IIRC, his PPGA in games vs Czechoslovakia was very impressive, but against some other big nations it was pretty poor. So, it was slightly inconclusive, though (again, IIRC) definitely more positive than negative.
tarheelhockey
Offside Review Specialist
First -- understand that I'm not saying Kuhnhackl isn't a great player. He's being compared to some of the greatest players of all time here, so everything is relative.
Cherry picking a couple of points of data that were posted in the discussion threads by the forumer Robert Gordon Orr
International scoring data:
1.Aleksander Maltsev |Soviet Union|1969-1983| 137|98| 95|
193
| 2.Valeri Kharlamov |Soviet Union|1969-1980| 123|89| 102|
191
| 3.Sergei Makarov |Soviet Union|1978-1991| 145|82| 100|
182
| 4.Boris Mikhailov |Soviet Union|1969-1980| 120|108| 72|
180
| 5.Vladimir Petrov |Soviet Union|1969-1981| 117|82| 85|
167
| 6.Josef Maleček |Czechoslovakia|1922-1940| 80|97| 62|
159
| 7.Sven ‘Tumba’ Johansson |Sweden|1952-1966| 97|86| 56|
142
| 8.Vyacheslav Fetisov |Soviet Union/Russia|1977-1996| 139|51| 93|
144
| 9.Vladimir Krutov |Soviet Union|1980-1989| 112|74| 64|
138
|10.Vladimir Martinec |Czechoslovakia|1970-1981| 118|68| 67|
135
| 11.Vladimir Zábrodský |Czechoslovakia|1947-1956| 44|78| 44|
132
| 12.Anatoli Firsov |Soviet Union|1964-1972| 67|66| 51|
117
|13.Jiři Holik |Czechoslovakia|1964-1977|142|59| 58|
117
| 14.Veniamin Aleksandrov |Soviet Union|1957-1968| 76|68| 48|
116
|15.Riccardo ’Bibi’ Torriani |Switzerland|1928-1948| 69|62| 52|
114
|16.Václav Nedomanský |Czechoslovakia|1965-1974| 93|78| 32|
110
|17.Ville Peltonen |Finland|1994-2010| 145|46| 62|
108
|18.Vlastimil Bubnik |Czechoslovakia|1952-1964| 63|60| 45|
105
|19.Erich Kühnhackl |West Germany|1972-1985| 90|55| 50|
105
|20.Ivan Hlinka|Czechoslovakia|1970-1981| 108|53| 52|
105
|21.Uli Poltéra |Switzerland|1947-1954| 54|72| 31|
103
|22.Aleksander Yakushev |Soviet Union|1967-1979| 93|63| 40|
103
|23.Sergei Kapustin |Soviet Union|1974-1983| 97|63| 40|
103
|24.Teemu Selänne |Finland|1991-2014| 96|54| 48|
102
|25.Jaromir Jágr |Czechosl./Czech R.|1990-| 121|47| 55|
102
|26.Vladimir Vikulov |Soviet Union|1966-1976| 79|55| 46|
101
|27.Ronald ‘Sura Pelle’ Pettersson |Sweden|1955-1967| 87|52| 49|
99
|28.Vyacheslav Bykov |Soviet Union/Russia|1983-1995| 108|47| 50|
97
|29.Andrei Khomutov |Soviet Union/Russia|1981-1995| 122|45| 52|
97
|30.Ilya Kovalchuk |Russia|2002-| 111|44| 52|
96
|31.Vyacheslav Starshinov |Soviet Union|1961-1971| 79|64| 31|
95
|32.Mats Sundin |Sweden|1990-2006| 79|43| 51|
94
|33.Saku Koivu |Finland|1993-2010| 89|30| 64|
94
|34.Milan Nový |Czechoslovakia|1975-1982| 86|53| 40|
93
|35.Aleksei Kasatonov |Soviet Union|1980-1991| 125|28| 65|
93
|36.Nisse Nilsson |Sweden|1956-1967| 63|58| 34|
92
|37.Gerd Truntschka |W. Germany/Germany|1979-1993| 108|31| 59|
90
|38.Miroslav Šatan |Slovakia|1994-2014| 117|47| 42|
89
|39.Raimo Helminen|Finland|1984-2002| 140|18| 70|
88
|40.Konstantin Loktev |Soviet Union|1957-1966| 55|50| 36|
86
|41.Ulf Sterner |Sweden|1960-1973| 87|47| 39|
86
|42.Dieter Hegen |W. Germany/Germany|1982-1998| 147|55| 29|
84
|43.Vladimir Shadrin |Soviet Union|1970-1977| 71|41| 43|
84
|44.Igor Larionov |Soviet Union/Russia|1982-2002| 98|36| 47|
83
|45.Wayne Gretzky |Canada|1981-1998| 55|26| 56|
82
|46.Ferdinand ‘Pic’ Cattini |Switzerland|1933-1949| 60|53| 28|
81
|47.Tord Lundström |Sweden|1965-1976| 92|46| 34|
80
|48.Viktor Zhluktov |Soviet Union|1976-1983| 88|36| 44|
80
|49.Daniel Alfredsson|Sweden|1995-2014| 92|32| 47|
79
|50.Evgeny Malkin|Russia|2005-| 69|37| 40|
77
|So taking that data and translating it to PPG, and ONLY comparing Kuhnhackl to players of the 1970s and 1980s:
Kharlamov - 1.55
Mikhailov - 1.50
Petrov - 1.43
Maltsev - 1.41
Vikulov - 1.28
Krutov - 1.23
Makarov - 1.23
Shadrin - 1.18
Kuhnhackl - 1.17
Now consider, how did Kuhnhackl actually rack up those numbers? Who were his opponents?
Finland|17|15|8|23
United States|10|7|9|16
Czechoslovakia|10|10|3|13
East Germany|8|4|6|10
Italy|4|2|7|9
Poland|6|7|2|9
Yugoslavia|1|3|1|4
Canada|5|2|2|4
Soviet Union|10|0|4|4
Romania|2|1|2|3
Netherlands|2|1|1|2
Sweden|11|1|1|2
So he scored only .64 PPG in performances against the top-3 European opponents (SU, Cze, Swe) plus Canada.
Now, that doesn't reduce his case as much as it may seem at first glance. .64 PPG against that level of competition is still very, very good. But it puts his overall numbers into perspective when you see that they were rather inflated from playing on a bad team, and therefore playing a disproportionate number of games against teams like Finland and the USA, rather than constantly taking on the Canadians and Soviets in championship matches.
So we have a player who seems to be comfortably around 10th best of his generation (1970s, early 1980s). Understand that we are covering a 70-year period from the 1920s to around 1990, with Kuhnhackl's era being probably the deepest and most important. A player who was 10th best in the 1950s would not have made the list. One who was 10th best in the 1970s or 1980s would make the list, but at the low end, which is exactly where he landed.
I didn't say he has to be in the top 5. But 48 is a joke. He certainly deserves to be a lo lot higher.
