HOH Top 50 European Non-NHL Players of All Time
- Thread starter Theokritos
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seventieslord
Student Of The Game
VMBM
Hansel?!
I like him, and I think he was in a slight disadvantage during the 1980s - being a contemporary of KLM and playing behind them throughout the decade. He really seemed to come to his own in the late 1980s and early 1990s, when KLM started to decline and were finally gone. Also, when thinking about how good the Soviets were as a team in the 1980s, maybe one of their best forwards outside the KLM should be a little higher...
Still, there are so many Russians (and Czechs, Swedes) who had such better careers that top 10 is just not realistic for him; top 50 would be plausible (i.e. I wouldn't reject it out of hand), but probably a bit of a stretch.
I had him at # 63 on my initial list.
Theokritos
Global Moderator
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For the record, Andrey Khomutov was #76 on the aggregate list and thus missed out on becoming eligible for the top 50 voting by quite a margin.
Can't think of 75 better European players.
Khomutov is almost a legend.
Here is one fact:
Khomutov is the only player to score a goal in every game of the epic 1987 Canada Cup final series (neither Lemieux nor Makarov managed to do so)
MXD
Partying Hard
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That's... Kinda like saying Eric Desjardins is a Top-20 D-Men of all time because he's the only defensemen to score a hattrick in a Stanley Cup Finals game.
Canadiens1958
Registered User
I See....
Always felt Connie Broden's 1958 WHC performance, 7 games , 12 goals, 7 assists, member gold medal team is underappreciated. Definitely worthy of consideration as a top 10 all-time center.
Always felt Connie Broden's 1958 WHC performance, 7 games , 12 goals, 7 assists, member gold medal team is underappreciated. Definitely worthy of consideration as a top 10 all-time center.
Wrong comparison.
Broden didnt't achieve that against the top level competition and it was a one-off.
Compare the team rosters of 1958 with the ones at 1987 Canada Cup and 1990 Worlds when Khomutov played.
Canada, Sweden, Czecho-Slovaks were stacked at both tournaments, unlike the 1958 tourney.
Johnny Engine
Moderator
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The point is, you don't put a player in the top anything for playing well in individual games.
Compare his career to Vasiliev, Krutov, etc.
Compare his career to Vasiliev, Krutov, etc.
VanIslander
20 years of All-Time Drafts on HfBoards
I echo Eldebrink and Waltin.
Vancouver dropped the ball with Eldebrink, they should have worked with him more. A very dangerous blueline presence, could man the point on PP at elite level. Among the absolute best offensive Swedish D-men during the 80's.
I agree Eldebrink deserves a spot, too. He was one of the best Swedish players at the IIHF worlds in the 80s.
I would add him, Khomutov, and move Bykov up in the rankings.
VMBM
Hansel?!
Things that I'm happy with on the final list:
Firsov # 4 (and above Mikhailov, Maltsev etc)
Finally he is getting some deserved recognition. I know that some are still not happy about it, but IMO it's all based on weak arguments.
Vlastimil Bubnik # 41
Yes, I did overrate him on my initial list (#26), but I'm kind of glad that I did, since it helped him to become available (for voting) sooner. Maybe his WHC record should warrant even somewhat better placement (vis-Ã -vis Bobrov, Tumba...), but # 41 is not too shabby.
Vyacheslav Bykov #49
I'm really happy that he is on the list. I initially thought that I had overrated him on my list (# 52), but heck, he could be even higher than #49 (probably too many '60s/'70s players above him).
Things that I'm not happy with:
Valery Vasiliev # 10
Maybe I have a tendency to underrate defensemen; I also had e.g. Kasatonov very low (and way too low in retrospect) compared to his final ranking. However, I haven't been so high on Vasiliev lately, and I still think he is placed too high.
Milan Novy #19
When your international record is, at best, about as good as Kapustin's or Hlinka's, IMO you should not be #19 European non-NHL player of all-time, and so far ahead of both K & H. Yes, he was an ace in the Czechoslovak league like no other player, but it is not enough for me.
Jiri Holik #24
I've always considerd Hlinka a somewhat better player, and will continue to do so. Not necessarily saying that Hlinka is too low, just too low compared to Holik and Novy. Again, maybe I'm giving defensive play too little credit (in Holik's case)....
Vladimir Vikulov #40
It was generally acknowledged that he became available too late; in any case, I had him higher on my list.
As for Mats Waltin, he remains one of my favourite European dmen ever, but it would be really hard to justify a very high rank(ing) for him; 1 All-Star berth at the WHCs & 1 Golden Puck & 1 All-Star berth in the Swedish league (!). Not all that impressive. And unfortunately, "just watch him play" is not a very strong argument (although ironically, in his case it is the best argument, as he impresses me very much at least), when making these kind of lists.
Firsov # 4 (and above Mikhailov, Maltsev etc)
Finally he is getting some deserved recognition. I know that some are still not happy about it, but IMO it's all based on weak arguments.
Vlastimil Bubnik # 41
Yes, I did overrate him on my initial list (#26), but I'm kind of glad that I did, since it helped him to become available (for voting) sooner. Maybe his WHC record should warrant even somewhat better placement (vis-Ã -vis Bobrov, Tumba...), but # 41 is not too shabby.
Vyacheslav Bykov #49
I'm really happy that he is on the list. I initially thought that I had overrated him on my list (# 52), but heck, he could be even higher than #49 (probably too many '60s/'70s players above him).
Things that I'm not happy with:
Valery Vasiliev # 10
Maybe I have a tendency to underrate defensemen; I also had e.g. Kasatonov very low (and way too low in retrospect) compared to his final ranking. However, I haven't been so high on Vasiliev lately, and I still think he is placed too high.
Milan Novy #19
When your international record is, at best, about as good as Kapustin's or Hlinka's, IMO you should not be #19 European non-NHL player of all-time, and so far ahead of both K & H. Yes, he was an ace in the Czechoslovak league like no other player, but it is not enough for me.
Jiri Holik #24
I've always considerd Hlinka a somewhat better player, and will continue to do so. Not necessarily saying that Hlinka is too low, just too low compared to Holik and Novy. Again, maybe I'm giving defensive play too little credit (in Holik's case)....
Vladimir Vikulov #40
It was generally acknowledged that he became available too late; in any case, I had him higher on my list.
As for Mats Waltin, he remains one of my favourite European dmen ever, but it would be really hard to justify a very high rank(ing) for him; 1 All-Star berth at the WHCs & 1 Golden Puck & 1 All-Star berth in the Swedish league (!). Not all that impressive. And unfortunately, "just watch him play" is not a very strong argument (although ironically, in his case it is the best argument, as he impresses me very much at least), when making these kind of lists.
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VMBM
Hansel?!
Certainly, if one puts a heavy emphasis on peak; in 1986-88 he was arguably better than a few players in the top 10.
But at least he is above Larionov on the list. It would have been a farce otherwise.
tarheelhockey
Offside Review Specialist
Krutov also suffered from the perception that he was "juiced" during at least some of his prime. So his ranking here is a sort of compromise between those who put weight on that factor, and those who didn't.
To illustrate:
In vote 3, Krutov had more 1-2-3 votes than the three players (Suchy, Petrov, Pospisil) who finished ahead of him.
In vote 4, Krutov equaled those same three players in 1-2-3 votes, and had more 1-2 votes than either Petrov or Pospisil.
In both rounds, he also had more 6-7-8 votes than the three players above. So we had a cohort of voters who would have had him 12th (ahead of the above) and a cohort which would have had him anywhere from 16th to 19th. Hence his finish at 15th.
To illustrate:
In vote 3, Krutov had more 1-2-3 votes than the three players (Suchy, Petrov, Pospisil) who finished ahead of him.
In vote 4, Krutov equaled those same three players in 1-2-3 votes, and had more 1-2 votes than either Petrov or Pospisil.
In both rounds, he also had more 6-7-8 votes than the three players above. So we had a cohort of voters who would have had him 12th (ahead of the above) and a cohort which would have had him anywhere from 16th to 19th. Hence his finish at 15th.
Don´t be so harsh on Novy. You can´t dismiss his domestic career just like that. It´s much larger sample of games after all. He was probably the best player of his generation if we´re talking about league performance only. List without Novy in top 20 would be wrong.
"international record is, at best, about as good as Kapustin's or Hlinka's"... So now you´re even claiming that his int. record is worse than that of those two? Nonsense. Hlinka does have one more top 10 scoring finish than Kapustin and Novy, but also one less all-star nod.
Novy is the only one who managed to win a scoring title at one tournament (OG 1980), and his all-star nod from Canada cup surely gets more value than all-star from WC only. They may have a similar prime but Novy clearly distinguished himself at his peak (CC 1976, OG 1980).
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VMBM
Hansel?!
No, I'm claiming that his international record is AT BEST about as good as Kapustin's or Hlinka's... and that's 'nonsense' according to you. Oh well.
Hlinka played longer on the national team, was a key player longer than Novy, played more tournaments and scored more points. Hlinka also got some all-star support and praise from the media in tournaments where he didn't score that many points (1971 WHC specifically). And whereas you could not claim that Novy at any time was CSSR's best player (internationally), you could at least claim that Hlinka was the best Czechoslovak player in 1978-79.
And since you mentioned scoring, Kapustin is well ahead of Novy, statistically, and his all-star nods are from considerably better World Championships (1978, 1981) than Novy's in 1976 (= alongside the 1975 tournament, arguably the weakest WHC played in the whole 1970s/1980s, quality-wise). I would also note that Vladimir Petrov played in neither the 1976 Canada Cup nor the 1976 WHC.
No, IMO Novy doesn't belong to the top 20; or belongs only if one puts heavy emphasis on domestic careers. In that case, of course, Kharlamov should not be as high as #3 nor Martinec #8.
I´ve adressed this issue during discussion that Novy was stucked behind the most talented crop of centers Czechs ever had. In the 1st half of 70s CSSR depth at C was maybe even better than Soviets´. Heck, Ivan Hlinka had to play mostly RW at this period yet. Point is that Novy was little bit younger than all of his competition so he really got a chance until he was inarguably one of the best forwards of CSSR. If you look at domestic scoring in 1st half of 70s, he was pretty much on par with other centers not named Nedomansky, possibly even better. But he wasn´t proven internationally as older guys like Holik, Kochta, Farda and Hlinka himself (and Nedomansky of course). Novy broke through top 10 scoring list in 1971 when he was 20 - exactly like all other Czech forwards added to the final list.
When Novy finally made it in 1975, he and Hlinka (and Martinec) were all at their peak and results clearly favour Martinec then Novy and then Hlinka.
WC 1975, Novy scored 8 points (4+4) in 10 games - 4th best in his team (behind Martinec, Stastny, Novak).
OG 1976 - 9 points (7+2) in 6 games - 2nd best in his team (behind Martinec).
WC 1976 - 15 points (9+6) in 10 games - 3rd best in his team (behind Martinec and Novak) and 3rd best in overall scoring; All-star center.
CC 1976 - 8 points (5+3) in 7 games - the best in his team and 4th best in overall scoring; All-star center and team´s MVP.
WC 1977 - 16 points (6+10) in 10 games - the best in his team and 6th best in overall scoring (tied with Martinec).
Novy can easily claim that he was the best CS player in 1976-77, his Golden stick from this year is a testament for it. (and then in early 80s too, but within lesser competition...)
Hlinka can claim the same in 1978 obviously, but not sure about 1979, he was 7th in GS voting...
Hlinka vs. Novy head to head:
Overlapping international tournaments (1975-1981), Novy outscored Hlinka 6 times, Hlinka outscored Novy 2 times.
Overlapping domestic seasons (1971-1981), Novy outscored Hlinka 7 times, Hlinka outscored Novy 4 times.
Then there is his all-star domestic record, team success...
______________________
My issue is rather opposite. I wonder if we haven´t underrated Novy. I mean, 6 scoring titles and 3 Golden sticks (= 6 "Art Ross trophies" and 3 "Hart trophies") trumps such trophy record of any other Czech forward. Compared to Martinec (1 "Art Ross" and 4 "Harts"), Nedomansky (3 "Art Ross", 0 "Harts"), Hlinka (1 "Art Ross", 1 "Hart")... Novy looks like clear winner by this view.
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VMBM
Hansel?!
Firstly, that kind of head-to-head comparison (international) isn't necessarily that fair, since it includes nearly all of Novy's best tournaments, and excludes a few of Hlinka's (1972 OG, 1974 WHC, at least). Plus 'outscoring' is in some cases a bit questionable term; as far as I know, both scored 15 points in the 1976 World Championship, although Novy scored more goals. Not to mention that player X scoring a point or a couple more than player Y in a tournament does not always mean that player X played better. And like I already said, Hlinka got good all-star support and recognition e.g. in the 1971 WHC, even though he did not score much.
I don't care about Hlinka's GS voting in 1979; generally he was considered the best Czechoslovak player in the 1978 and 1979 World Championships, and thus the best Team CSSR player around that time. And I'd also claim that Martinec was still the best Czechoslovak player internationally in 1977 (like he had been in 1974/5-76); he got the All-Star nod (beating e.g. Mikhailov) in the 1977 WHC, Novy didn't ('lost' the nod vs. Petrov).
Furthermore, does it really even matter why Novy did not get a chance to play internationally in the early 1970s? The fact is that he didn't play then and IMO it hurts his legacy somewhat.
And like you hinted above, he won two of his "Harts" (and some of his "Art Rosses") in the early '80s, which wasn't exactly the golden age of CSSR hockey.
No, IMO we really haven't underrated him. His international record is simply weak compared to the most players around him on the list. Hlinka's (and Kapustin's) would be too (but they are well below # 19, so...)
Reverse the order of these five and I'd agree.(I hope the voting was at least close.)
Remember, this list isn't based on NHL careers.
There is no arguing that Larionov achieved more during his career then Krutov, but he was absolutely not the better player during their time on the same line.
VMBM
Hansel?!
Right, and that is demonstrated by comparing their domestic and international awards/accolades:
Soviet All-Star|7 x|4 x
Soviet Player of the Year voting, top 10|1st, 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 5th, 7th, 8th, 10th|1st, 4th, 4th, 6th, 6th, 6th, 9th
World Championship All-Star|4 x|2 x
IIHF Directorate Best Forward|2 x|-
Canada Cup All-Star|1 x|-
Jussi
Registered User
What is HÃ¥kan Loob doing on that list? He played 6 season for the Flames and is still the only Swede to score 50 goals in a season.
Theokritos
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