Theokritos
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HOH Top 50 European Non-NHL Players of All Time
- Thread starter Theokritos
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TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
Biggest divergences from the HOH Top Players by position lists so far - the relatively low position of Balderis, and the higher positions of pre-1963 Europeans.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
Yes. But who would make this list from 1990 and beyond, who played over half his prime outside of the nhl?
How about Patrick Thoresen's European career? I'm actually surprised NHL didn't come calling after that awesome 2012 WHC performance.
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
The only guys that I could see with a chance are Radulov, Nummelin, Helminen, Peltonen and Jutila. So most of them Finns.
Actually, among Russians that chose KHL's paychecks over NHL, I would pick Ilya Nikulin over either Radulov or Mozyakin. During his prime (not now), I absolutely think he was one of Russia's best 2-way defenseman (not saying much, but still).
I'm not suggesting he belongs though. He was more of "jack of all trades, master of none" kind of player. He is no Fetisov or Vasiliev.
I'm not suggesting he belongs though. He was more of "jack of all trades, master of none" kind of player. He is no Fetisov or Vasiliev.
Sentinel
Registered User
While I disagree with several placements, overall I guess you can do worse. The absence of Guryshev (nine top-ten point finishes) is puzzling.
TheDevilMadeMe
Registered User
The Soviet league was kind of crap when Guryshev played. Peak vs Peak, Bobrov was easily better, right?
What did Guryshev do internationally?
From 90s on, Cechmanek would be the best candidate. Extremely consistent goalie throughout his prime (95-03) + being 4th in Hart, 2nd in Vezina and 2nd All-star (behind Hasek) in his first NHL season is pretty good too.
Radulov might have a case too.
Radulov might have a case too.
Bobrov regularly outscored Guryshev in international competition while being 3 years older.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
So we're talking about a guy whom you're surprised didn't get an nhl job, who previously was a mediocre nhl player? We've put players on the list for whom there is almost universal agreement they were on par with star players in the NHL.
Theokritos
Global Moderator
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Now that we're through with the voting and the top 50 list is finished, I want to thank everbody who contributed to this project. The first on the list is TheDevilMadeMe whose advise to his newbie co-administrator, me, was crucial. His experience from earlier projects allowed us to navigate around shallows I wouldn't have been aware of on my own. Next are those individuals who took the time and effort to screen the vote 1 lists (top 70 ballots) for glaring omissions and questionable choices, we were able to correct quite a few oversights thanks to their work.
The biggest thank you of course has to go to the voters: this project essentially consists of their contributions and submissions. The task to rank these European players was probably a bigger challenge than the earlier positional rankings and it showed as the number of participants was smaller. There were times when the debates turned a bit silent, I guess due to the difficulty of digging out tangible new informations about quite a few of the players. All the more the community owes a lot of appreciation to those participants like VMBM, DN28, Robert Gordon Orr and some others who were willing and able to provide us with invaluable new pieces of information from various books and papers, many of them originally in Swedish, Finnish or Czech. Apologies if I have forgotten someone I should have named along with those names.
Last but not least a thank you goes to those non-participants who still chimed in with some input, information or ideas, be it in the preliminary phase or during the voting debates.
I hope the voters don't feel I'm doing them any injustice when I say the following: In my personal opinion the top-50 list they have created should not be viewed as the last word on the topic. Let's keep in mind that it's probably one of the first organized attempts by any group of hockey history enthusiasts to come up with a transnational all-time ranking. Eight years ago the first of the HOH "best player of all time" lists was created and when you look back at it then it's obvious a lot of opinions have changed in the time that has passed. The community knows a lot more now than it did back then. And yet, it all started with that top 100 list and it provided the baseline for what followed. Our project should be viewed in the same light: it's more of a first word than a last. And already we've learned a lot during the project and know more than we did when we started, and that's the purpose of the whole enterprise as far as I'm concerned. Cheers to everybody.
The biggest thank you of course has to go to the voters: this project essentially consists of their contributions and submissions. The task to rank these European players was probably a bigger challenge than the earlier positional rankings and it showed as the number of participants was smaller. There were times when the debates turned a bit silent, I guess due to the difficulty of digging out tangible new informations about quite a few of the players. All the more the community owes a lot of appreciation to those participants like VMBM, DN28, Robert Gordon Orr and some others who were willing and able to provide us with invaluable new pieces of information from various books and papers, many of them originally in Swedish, Finnish or Czech. Apologies if I have forgotten someone I should have named along with those names.
Last but not least a thank you goes to those non-participants who still chimed in with some input, information or ideas, be it in the preliminary phase or during the voting debates.
I hope the voters don't feel I'm doing them any injustice when I say the following: In my personal opinion the top-50 list they have created should not be viewed as the last word on the topic. Let's keep in mind that it's probably one of the first organized attempts by any group of hockey history enthusiasts to come up with a transnational all-time ranking. Eight years ago the first of the HOH "best player of all time" lists was created and when you look back at it then it's obvious a lot of opinions have changed in the time that has passed. The community knows a lot more now than it did back then. And yet, it all started with that top 100 list and it provided the baseline for what followed. Our project should be viewed in the same light: it's more of a first word than a last. And already we've learned a lot during the project and know more than we did when we started, and that's the purpose of the whole enterprise as far as I'm concerned. Cheers to everybody.
Theokritos
Global Moderator
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An all-time list without players from a "distant era" wouldn't be an all-time list.
Theokritos
Global Moderator
- Apr 6, 2010
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He was eligible, but only two of the 15 voters had him on their top 70 list and none in their top 50. Check out the aggregate list.
OK, and i see there is no player born in 70s or later. That is a bit weird IMO.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
It's not weird. Most of the best European players born in the 70s and on played in the NHL.
ResilientBeast
Proud Member of the TTSAOA
That last part is extremely subjective and hopefull at best case scenarios for most of the pre 70's players right?I mean people talk about the quality of the KHL for Radu love and then skip over the relative weakness of tournament teams pre 1972 summit series as the WHC team quality.and depth was probably worse.
I do think most of the important players are atleast listed so its a pretty good list.Well, you make a subjective point also.
The idea that Summit Series 1972 be used as a starting point of European hockey quality is flawed logic. Keep in mind, the reason that series happened in the first place was because guys like Firsov, Starshinov and Alexandrov dominated for a decade.
