HOH Top 40 Goaltenders of All Time

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Tom barrasso is 29, Curtis Joseph is 31. Lundqvist has to be over them by now, right?

 

[quoipourquoi]

Now that its a couple seasons since the Top 40 goalie list was done, wondering if Lundqvist's rating would be changed significantly.

Though his regular season performances haven't really been much of a factor, it seems that Lundqvist's playoff performances were. His biggest knock at the time of the voting was failure in the playoffs. I would say he has shaken that off over the last few seasons.

He was 38th on the list. If voting were done today, would there be a significantly different outcome?

I would imagine both he and Roberto Luongo would be the big movers, with some additional support for Tuukka Rask early in his career. Lundqvist has added a lot in the playoffs - especially in terms of quality games - and Luongo is further removed from the skepticism pertaining to individual games that often follows a player in his prime.

And I think a player like Tim Thomas would probably lose half of his supporters while the other half would likely place him even closer to Bernie Parent.

Tom barrasso is 29, Curtis Joseph is 31. Lundqvist has to be over them by now, right?

It could be argued either way, because while Lundqvist's consistency is super impressive, Curtis Joseph almost certainly peaked higher, taking a 1st and a 2nd place finish in save percentage in the Roy/Belfour era while Lundqvist still hasn't had anything higher than a 4th place finish (adding a 5th and a 9th since the project). Lundqvist is becoming a bigger icon, and he'll go as far as his longevity will take him. I see him as being another Martin Brodeur: deserving of his inevitable high-ranking, but a lot of the goaltenders he'll be passing along the way were better at their bests, so unless Lundqvist starts winning save percentage titles, there's probably always going to be push-back arguments.


5 Best Z-Scores (Standard Deviations Above Average)
4.0: Joseph, 1993
3.9: Thomas, 2011
3.5: Luongo, 2004
3.5: Thomas, 2009
3.2: Joseph, 1992
2.7: Lundqvist, 2006
2.6: Joseph, 1994
2.6: Luongo, 2007
2.5: Lundqvist, 2012
2.5: Rask, 2010
2.4: Rask, 2014
2.3: Barrasso, 1993
2.3: Luongo, 2006
2.3: Luongo, 2011
2.1: Luongo, 2001
2.0: Barrasso, 1988
2.0: Barrasso, 1984
1.9: Rask, 2013
1.8: Lundqvist, 2007
1.8: Lundqvist, 2013
1.8: Thomas, 2008
1.8: Thomas, 2006
1.7: Joseph, 2001
1.6: Joseph, 2000
1.6: Lundqvist, 2010
1.4: Barrasso, 1985
1.3: Rask, 2015
1.2: Barrasso, 1991
1.0: Thomas, 2012
0.5: Rask, 2011


I'm not convinced he's ahead of Joseph just yet. Might be in two or three years though.

 

[MXD]

Another question concerning Lundqvist -- can we really take his mid-range Vezina finishes at face value, considering how he got those finishes to begin with?

 

[quoipourquoi]

Another question concerning Lundqvist -- can we really take his mid-range Vezina finishes at face value, considering how he got those finishes to begin with?

I didn't in the project. But the longer he remains relevant in the NHL while others come and go, the more special he seems. I think longevity as even just a very good, non-1st/2nd Team All-Star is more meaningful in the goaltending position than others.

 

[MXD]

I didn't in the project. But the longer he remains relevant in the NHL while others come and go, the more special he seems. I think longevity as even just a very good, non-1st/2nd Team All-Star is more meaningful in the goaltending position than others.

I'm not saying Lundqvist wasn't very good. He was. He was also nowhere close to being the best netminder in the league.

Just that coming up with the "look, Lundqvist was great, always good Vezina consideration" is a really, really faulty premise to evaluation.

The Vezina should've been unanimous in 2015, but at least 1st place votes received by Dubnyk and Rinne didn't change a thing.

 

[tarheelhockey]

The thing about Lundqvist's Vezina finishes, ever since the cohort of Brodeur/Kiprusoff/Luongo and moved on, the guys who are finishing on his level in Vezina voting are almost always the result of a peak or outlier season.

2009 - Thomas, Mason, Backstrom, Luongo, Nabokov, Lundqvist
2010 - Miller, Bryzgalov, Brodeur, Nabokov, Anderson, Lundqvist
2011 - Thomas, Rinne, Luongo, Lundqvist, Price
2012 - Lundqvist, Quick, Rinne, Smith, Elliott
2013 - Bobrovsky, Lundqvist, Niemi, Anderson, Rask
2014 - Rask, Varlamov, Bishop, Price, Quick, Lundqvist
2015 - Price, Rinne, Dubnyk, Holtby, Lundqvist

How many of these guys were actually able to replicate their performances in these seasons? Guys like Miller, Rinne, Quick, and Bobrovsky have come and gone as Flavor of the Week all-stars. Today it's Price and Holtby who seem like they're surely going to be superstars for the next decade. The difference is that Lundqvist has been doing it for a decade already, and he's showing no sign of falling off that level.

It's kind of hard to hold it against Lundqvist that he didn't flat-out dominate to the point of beating, say, Thomas in 2011 or Bobrovsky in 2013. If he had actually beaten the entire field in these years, we'd be talking about him in terms of the top-10 all time instead of barely squeaking into the top-40.

So while the Vezina finishes themselves don't carry much weight, they point to the real core of his argument, which is consistent A-level performance against a field of guys who jump from B- to A+ and back to B- seemingly overnight.

Edit: This pretty much tells the story, IMO... in spite of Lundqvist's disappointing Vezina record:

Save Percentage since the 2006 Lockout, 300+ GP

Goalie | GP | Save%
Rask|301|.925
Lundvist|661|.921
Price|447|.920
Thomas|305|.920
Luongo|636|.919
Crawford|309|.919
Rinne|407|.918
Varlamlov|302|.918

That's a BIG margin of GP over the rest of the field, btw.

 

[MXD]

Edit: This pretty much tells the story, IMO... in spite of Lundqvist's disappointing Vezina record:

.

...My point was mostly that Lundqvist's Vezina record looks better than it should be, because of.... let's call it "voting anomalies".

And for games played : obviously. He's older than all those guys except Luongo, Rinne and Thomas; and both Thomas and Rinne weren't active all the years since the lockout.

Edited due to Tarheel's editing.

 

[tarheelhockey]

...My point was mostly that Lundqvist's Vezina record looks better than it should be, because of.... let's call it "voting anomalies".

Oh, then the point went completely over my head. What is the anomaly?

And for games played : obviously. He's older than all those guys except Luongo, Rinne and Thomas; and both Thomas and Rinne weren't active all the years since the lockout.

That's just it, though, Lundqvist and Luongo are the faces of a whole generation of modern goaltenders. This is just a very different generation than when Roy/Hasek/Belfour/Brodeur were all going gangbusters at the same time.

And I have no explanation for Luongo other than your GP number doesn't seem right,

You're right, I must have been looking at the wrong line or something. Fixed it.

 

[MXD]

Oh, then the point went completely over my head. What is the anomaly?

Well, for starters, an NHL GM thought he was the best goalie in the league in 2013-14. And 2014-15. And, in both cases, that was all, or most, of his support. I mean, there was clearly only one possible option as to whom was the best goalie in the NHL last season, but at least the other goalies who received votes ended up with more than purely marginal support.

Lundqvist season wasn't better or worst because he received voting support. That is obvious in and of itself. And he was also very good last season. Nobody is arguing that (at least I hope so).

 

[Brooklanders*]

Hasek to me is the best.

 

[seventieslord]

The thing about Lundqvist's Vezina finishes, ever since the cohort of Brodeur/Kiprusoff/Luongo and moved on, the guys who are finishing on his level in Vezina voting are almost always the result of a peak or outlier season.

2009 - Thomas, Mason, Backstrom, Luongo, Nabokov, Lundqvist
2010 - Miller, Bryzgalov, Brodeur, Nabokov, Anderson, Lundqvist
2011 - Thomas, Rinne, Luongo, Lundqvist, Price
2012 - Lundqvist, Quick, Rinne, Smith, Elliott
2013 - Bobrovsky, Lundqvist, Niemi, Anderson, Rask
2014 - Rask, Varlamov, Bishop, Price, Quick, Lundqvist
2015 - Price, Rinne, Dubnyk, Holtby, Lundqvist

How many of these guys were actually able to replicate their performances in these seasons? Guys like Miller, Rinne, Quick, and Bobrovsky have come and gone as Flavor of the Week all-stars. Today it's Price and Holtby who seem like they're surely going to be superstars for the next decade. The difference is that Lundqvist has been doing it for a decade already, and he's showing no sign of falling off that level.

It's kind of hard to hold it against Lundqvist that he didn't flat-out dominate to the point of beating, say, Thomas in 2011 or Bobrovsky in 2013. If he had actually beaten the entire field in these years, we'd be talking about him in terms of the top-10 all time instead of barely squeaking into the top-40.

So while the Vezina finishes themselves don't carry much weight, they point to the real core of his argument, which is consistent A-level performance against a field of guys who jump from B- to A+ and back to B- seemingly overnight.

Edit: This pretty much tells the story, IMO... in spite of Lundqvist's disappointing Vezina record:

Save Percentage since the 2006 Lockout, 300+ GP

Goalie | GP | Save%
Rask|301|.925
Lundvist|661|.921
Price|447|.920
Thomas|305|.920
Luongo|636|.919
Crawford|309|.919
Rinne|407|.918
Varlamlov|302|.918

That's a BIG margin of GP over the rest of the field, btw.

Not only that, but scoring has gone down since 2006. Lundqvist played a few years in a higher scoring environment than rask and price did. I think if you to take adjusted numbers he'd be equal or better, in a much larger sample.

 

[Kibe]

I see Tretiak is clearly underrated here should be #4 IMO. Also Tim Thomas should not be on that list over Kipper. And i see he is rated over Lundqvist too, what a joke . [MOD]

 

[Theokritos]

And i see he is rated over Lundqvist too, what a joke

He's just one spot over him and you realize the ranking was done in 2012, right?

 

[Kibe]

He's just one spot over him and you realize the ranking was done in 2012, right?

Yeah i noticed all that, but still i think 10-11 season is throwing people of and making them overate him. Personally i would rank him somewhere between Rinne and Vokoun.

 

[Theokritos]

Yeah i noticed all that, but still i think 10-11 season is throwing people of and making them overate him. Personally i would rank him somewhere between Rinne and Vokoun.

Maybe you're already aware of it, but you can read up on all the arguments presented in favour or against the players that came up for voting. In the case of Thomas and Lundqvist, the threads for vote 9 and vote 10 are the places to go to.

 

[quoipourquoi]

See a lot of goalies walking around with two Vezina trophies, two save percentage titles, and a Conn Smythe? He's the Evgeni Malkin of goaltending, but with more top-10 finishes and probably half as much respect.

 

[Doctor No]

I see Tretiak is clearly underrated here should be #4 IMO.

Since "clearly underrated" must mean that you see something obvious that we surely have missed, how about sharing WHAT THAT IS?

 

[Michael Farkas]

Yeah, I think I said earlier in the thread (only 4 or 5 hundred times though) how foolish it looks/looked/is looking/will look to have a player like Tim Thomas on the list...journeyman minor leaguer to appear on a list like this...the dangers of what can happen when talent evaluation comes out and the inability to adjust for game/coaching changes...

Evgeni Malkin clearly has been one of the league's best players since he stepped foot in it...there is no link between the two...at all...

 

[MXD]

Yeah, I think I said earlier in the thread (only 4 or 5 hundred times though) how foolish it looks/looked/is looking/will look to have a player like Tim Thomas on the list...journeyman minor leaguer to appear on a list like this...the dangers of what can happen when talent evaluation comes out and the inability to adjust for game/coaching changes...

Evgeni Malkin clearly has been one of the league's best players since he stepped foot in it...there is no link between the two...at all...

... There's is indeed no parallel between Malkin and Thomas.

But I see absolutely no problem with Thomas where he is either (and he'll be off the list eventually).

 

[quoipourquoi]

Evgeni Malkin clearly has been one of the league's best players since he stepped foot in it...there is no link between the two...at all...

Evgeni Malkin
1, 1, 2 - Scoring Finishes

Tim Thomas
1, 1, 4, 7 - Save Percentage Finishes

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Evgeni Malkin
1, 1, 2 - Scoring Finishes

Tim Thomas
1, 1, 4, 7 - Save Percentage Finishes

thomas basically has two amazing years, two other years as an average NHL level starter, two more years as a below average NHLer, and then nothing. like, he was literally in the minors.

you take away malkin's three big years and he still has seven other years as a star-level player. he was one single year where he wasn't at least a point per game player.

so no, they are not remotely the same.

i mean, 7th in save percentage in a year where he played less than 40 games? are you kidding me?

 

[quoipourquoi]

i mean, 7th in save percentage in a year where he played less than 40 games? are you kidding me?

He played virtually the entire second half of the season. 38 of the final 41.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

He played virtually the entire second half of the season. 38 of the final 41.

and finished 17th in GAA, with a 12-13-10 record leading his team to... third last in the east.

now i don't remember him that year at all, for the likely reason that there wasn't anything noteworthy to remember, but from the month-by-month numbers:

month | games | wins | losses | OTL | GAA | SV% | SO
January | 11 | 6 | 1 | 2 | .940 | 1.96 | 1
February | 6 | 2 | 2 | 2 | .913 | 2.50 | 0
March | 13 | 3 | 6 | 3 | .912 | 3.16 | 0
April | 8 | 1 | 4 | 3 | .901 | 3.35 | 0

so sure, he had a very nice '09 and '11-level january to take the number one job from an abysmal raycroft.

but those aren't exactly vezina stats for the rest of the season though, are they? that's a .9085 SV% after january, good for 15th in the league. to go with his lovely 6-12-8 record.

so we're talking about nine games (plus two mop-ups) where he was good and seventeen where he was average at best and you're talking about

the Evgeni Malkin of goaltending, but with more top-10 finishes and probably half as much respect.

i repeat: a nine game hot streak that left him with a 7th place finish in an average-based stat.


EDIT:

actually, it was a 13 game hot streak, because you'd also want to count the first four games of february, before thomas' wheels fell off.

first 13 games, plus mop up duty 33 minutes of mop-up duty: .9406 SV%, 8-2-3 record (which, yes, awesome)

rest of the season: .904 SV%, 4-11-7 record (which would be outside the top 20 for SV%)

 

[edinson]

Evgeni Malkin
1, 1, 2 - Scoring Finishes

Tim Thomas
1, 1, 4, 7 - Save Percentage Finishes

You are comparing two players who consistently played less games per season than other players at their positions. Only for one of them are you using an averaging metric. That is not a fair comparison.

PPG finishes for Malkin:

1,2,2,3,7,8.

 

[quoipourquoi]

You are comparing two players who consistently played less games per season than other players at their positions. Only for one of them are you using an averaging metric. That is not a fair comparison.

PPG finishes for Malkin:

1,2,2,3,7,8.

Which was shown to be overstated during the project in regard to Thomas, as his ranks in GP when leading the league were comparable to leaders of the statistic in other seasons, particularly Hart nominees Vanbiesbrouck and Hasek in 1994, not as a result of being consistently injured (which is the case with Malkin).

And as stated in the project, if Thomas couldn't handle a consistently higher workload than he was given, then his 2011 playoffs should not have been as statistically impressive as they were. But I'll grant you that Malkin's career has better filler, because that's the only thing that Thomas' resume doesn't have, as evidenced by the goaltenders ranked above him that never had seasons or playoffs as good as his.

Credit that to the uniqueness of the goaltending position: it can be hard just to get a job. But you also don't put up seasons that get compared to other dominant save percentage margins by accident twice. He's not off the list.