HOH Top 40 Goaltenders of All Time

[Canadiens1958]

Jimmy Foster

I think the Goalie of the 1936 Winter Olympic Gold Medal Ice Hockey Team JIMMY FOSTER deserves consideration as one of the Best Goalies of all Time. I say this because of His excellent Play at the GOALIE Position during the 1936 Winter Olympics in which He Played on a Great Britain Team that was often outplayed by its Opponents along with His outstanding Career. I think JIMMY FOSTER deserves strong consideration to be inducted into The Regular and IIHF Hall of Fame's.

Some background about Jimmy Foster:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Foster_(ice_hockey)

1936 Olympics

http://www.calgarysun.com/2014/02/0...ic-gold-in-hockey-from-undefeated-team-canada

As the Depression took hold in Canada, Senior teams and leagues folded, rosters were reduced and certain Senior hockey players became hockey mercenaries, traveling to play for teams that offered jobs and a hockey contract.

Jimmy Foster was the best goalie from this group.

 

[Doctor No]

I love what Foster did in those Olympics, but putting him into the Hockey Hall of Fame would be like inducting Mike Eruzione or Jim Craig. The body of work, aside from a small sample, isn't there.

 

[Voight]

Wasn't the Great Britain team like 80% Canadian? IIRC it was full of Canadian Servicemen or something like that.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Moncton Hawks

I love what Foster did in those Olympics, but putting him into the Hockey Hall of Fame would be like inducting Mike Eruzione or Jim Craig. The body of work, aside from a small sample, isn't there.

Led the Moncton Hawks to three consecutive Allan Cup Finals 1932-34, winning in 1933 and 1934. 1936 Olympic Gold with Great Britain. Played semi-pro /amateur app. 15 seasons.

Basically in the group of excellent Depression era/WWII goalies, Legs Fraser, etc who preferred the safety net of employment plus a hockey salary.

Maybe not HHOF worthy but recognizable.

 

[Theokritos]

Wasn't the Great Britain team like 80% Canadian?

Indeed. Jimmy Foster (G), Art Child (G), Jimmy Borland (D), Gordon Dailley (D), Jack Kilpatrick (F), Alex Archer (F), Edgar Brenchley (F), Jimmy Chappell (F), Johnny Coward (F), Gerry Davey (F) and Archie Stinchcombe (F) all grew up playing hockey in Canada. Only two players didn't: Carl Erhardt (D) and Bob Wyman (D).

IIRC it was full of Canadian Servicemen or something like that.

In the 1920s and early 30s yes, but by 1936 the Canadians in question were semi-professional/professional/"shamateur" hockey players who specifically came to England to earn their money there:

In the 1930s level of play and competition in the English League were increasing steadily. Instead of being content with the talent that happened to be available among Canadians in England, teams started to actively recruit quality players from Canada in Europe and in Canada. As a sign of things to come, center Frank LeBlanc from the Allan Cup-winning Moncton Hawks (Maritime Senior Hockey League) went over to play for Queen's Ice Hockey Club...in 1933 (...)

In the 1934 offseason the signing of Canadian players gained monumentum. Wembley Lions announced their arrival by introducing four players from Ottawa: Lou Bates (had played for Ottawa Shamrocks in the Ottawa City Senior League before going to Paris for a season), Bobby Walton (Montagnards, Ottawa City Senior League), Edgar Murphy (Montagnards, Ottawa City Senior League) and Eddie Coulter (Almonte, Nickel Belt League). Canadians club, relocated from Grosvenor House Hotel to the Wembley Empire Pool, added Jake Milford (later to serve as GM of the Los Angeles Kings and the Vancouver Canucks) and Sonny Rost (both from the Kenora Thistles, Manitoba Junior Hockey League champions) to their championship-winning roster. Milford is said to have turned down offers from the Detroit Red Wings and New York Rangers. Meanwhile Streatham, fourth in the 1933-1934 season, managed to hire Robert Giddens (veteran who had played for Ottawa Montagnard and Harvard University before going to Paris like Lou Bates), Red Stapleford (from Windsor Mic Macs, Ontario Hockey Association champions) and goaltender Maurice Gerth (Stratford midgets in the OHA junior series). Richmond Hawks, a newcomer team, brought over forwards Joe Beaton (Charlottetown Abegweits, Maritime Senior Hockey League) and Tommy Robertson (McGill University, Montreal Senior Group/later to be renamed Quebec Senior Hockey League) as well as defenceman Ernie Leacock (who had several years of professional hockey in the Pacific Coast Hockey League, Western Canada Hockey League and North West Hockey League under his belt).

The recruiting was usually done by Canadian players and coaches already engaged with clubs in England. Spending the summer months back home in Canada, they would use their personal contacts to former team mates and convince them of the merits of the British League. Red Stapleford and Maurice Gerth for example were recruited by Streatham player Bert Shaw: all of them had played for Stratford midgets as juniors. One year leater Stapleford himself would begin to spread the word to his former Windsor team mates.

The main incentive for Canadian players to go to England was money. Sonny Rost would later recall: "At the time, New York Rovers (a farm team of the Rangers) were offering a player $25.00 a week, while over there they were paying $50.00". In British currency: "When I first arrived at Wembley Canadians I took home £5 a week. The football lads were getting a £1 less. Then they doubled my pay." Other incentives mentioned are the chance to see England and the availability of cheap alcohol there (the latter allegation possibly not to be taken at face value, then again, who knows). Since hockey was officially an amateur sport in Great Britain, the signing of players from Canada was done in a manner of "shamateurism": rink operators and team owners created well-paid jobs that the players would nominally be hired for. That the commercialization of hockey was well on its way in England in the 1930s is highlighted by the fact that popular stars of the British League began to appear in commercial advertisement, for example Lou Bates (Player's cigarettes) and Sonny Rost (Gillette razor blades).

 

[Theokritos]

A bit more info about Jimmy Foster:

He was to earn a reputation as one of the finest goaltenders outside of the National Hockey League with superb statistics and a considerable number of shutouts at both domestic and international level.

Having learnt his hockey in Winnipeg, Foster played for the University of Manitoba before making his name with the Moncton Hawks. As a Hawk in the 1932 Allan Cup finals, he posted the first ever back-to-back clean sheets in the competition and went a staggering 417 minutes without conceding a goal. With Jimmy Foster between the pipes, the Hawks went on to claim the Allan Cup in 1933 and 1934 and in those three seasons, he played all bar one of 220 games.

1935 saw him return to Britain to join the Richmond Hawks where he backstopped them to the runners-up spot in the English National League, although tied on points with winners, Wembley Lions and earned himself an All Star A-team selection. He moved the following season to join the Harringay Greyhounds where he stayed for three seasons including a league title and London Cup victory in 1939 and an All Star B-team award. In his five seasons in British domestic hockey, Jimmy Foster recorded an impressive 24 shutouts.

It was for Great Britain though, that Jimmy Foster showed just how good a ‘keeper he was. In the 1936 Olympic Games, Foster played in all seven games recording four shutouts and conceding just three goals, a vital factor in the squad securing an unexpected gold medal. In total, Jimmy Foster appeared in 31 World Championship games posting an amazing 16 shutouts and as well as the Olympics, he helped Great Britain to the European Championship successes of 1937 & 1938.

Jimmy Foster returned to Canada in 1940 and continued his outstanding ice hockey career with the Glace Bay Miners and Quebec Aces.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Beckett Sports released a magazine titled Hockey's Greatest Goalies ($10 USD), which ranks the top-50 goalies in NHL history. Obviously the list isn't going to be anything special (though it includes 34 of our 40), but it's still a fun magazine and totally worth picking up. Each goaltender has a full-page profile, while the top-10 goalies have a two-page profile. Also there is a gallery of all current starting goaltenders, every team's top goaltending prospect, the best masks from the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s, and brief articles on Pelle Lindbergh and Martin Brodeur.

But even cooler is that you get the top-5 picks from Hardy Astrom, Steve Baker, Murray Bannerman, Gary Bromley, Tim Cheveldae, Robert Esche, Paul Harrison, Denis Herron, Corey Hirsch, Brent Johnson, Blaine Lacher, Mario Lessard, Pete LoPresti, Ron Low, Phile Myre, Pete Peeters, Andre Racicot, Bill Ranford, Damian Rhodes, Stephen Valiquette, and Jimmy Waite (and some unranked top-5 picks from others).

I did some tallying, and assuming a 10-7-5-3-1 ballot, the 21 votes (some of which had ties for certain places) would give us:

Patrick Roy, 112 (6-4-4-1-1)
Terry Sawchuk, 86 (5-3-1-3-1)
Martin Brodeur, 77 (2-5-2-2-6)
Glenn Hall, 54 (2-3-1-2-2)
Dominik Hasek, 54 (2-2-3-1-2)
Ken Dryden, 52 (2-2-1-4-1)
Jacques Plante, 51 (2-1-4-0-4)

Tony Esposito, 11 (0-1-0-1-1)
Roger Crozier, 10 (0-0-2-0-0)
Bernie Parent, 9 (0-0-0-3-0)
Grant Fuhr, 7 (0-0-1-0-2)
Ed Giacomin, 6 (0-0-1-0-1)
Frank Brimsek, 5 (0-0-1-0-0)
Henrik Lundqvist, 5 (0-0-1-0-0)
Ed Belfour, 3 (0-0-0-1-0)
Johnny Bower, 3 (0-0-0-1-0)
Curtis Joseph, 3 (0-0-0-1-0)
Mike Richter, 3 (0-0-0-1-0)
Turk Broda, 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Chris Osgood, 1 (0-0-0-0-1)


It's fun to see that out of a sample of 21 goaltenders, every goaltender in our big-7 received multiple 1st place votes.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

2 of them had Roger Crozier the 3rd best goalie of all time???? Did they give any explanations?

Other than that, it looks pretty standard, other than the random 5th place vote thrown to Osgood, which doesn't totally surprise me.

 

[Sturminator]

I don't find the lack of respect here for pre-50's goalies shocking, just disappointing. Did I just overlook it, or is Bill Durnan's name not anywhere to be found on that list?

 

[quoipourquoi]

2 of them had Roger Crozier the 3rd best goalie of all time???? Did they give any explanations?

Other than that, it looks pretty standard, other than the random 5th place vote thrown to Osgood, which doesn't totally surprise me.

No reasoning given - just a quick bio on each goalie (in this case, it was Denis Herron and Paul Harrison who had high opinions of Roger Crozier, and Blaine Lacher who quite liked Chris Osgood).

 

[quoipourquoi]

I don't find the lack of respect here for pre-50's goalies shocking, just disappointing. Did I just overlook it, or is Bill Durnan's name not anywhere to be found on that list?

On the HOH Top-40, or in the magazine I just bought? In the magazine, Bill Durnan was #7. He did not appear on any of the players' top-5 lists though.

 

[Ishdul]

He sure managed to dupe a lot of people, including the majority of NHL GMs

Also; virtually every NHL shooter.

 

[seventieslord]

I don't find the lack of respect here for pre-50's goalies shocking, just disappointing. Did I just overlook it, or is Bill Durnan's name not anywhere to be found on that list?

should someone vote him in their top-5? that would be just as bad.

 

[Voight]

I don't find the lack of respect here for pre-50's goalies shocking, just disappointing. Did I just overlook it, or is Bill Durnan's name not anywhere to be found on that list?

Small, albeit great, sample size.

 

[Doctor No]

I don't find the lack of respect here for pre-50's goalies shocking, just disappointing. Did I just overlook it, or is Bill Durnan's name not anywhere to be found on that list?

Fourteenth (on our list) seems about right to me. Where would you put him (and who would you have above him)?

 

[Sanf]

Sawchuk is interesting one. 5 from the (interesting) group of goalies ranked him first. Many of them can´t have personal memories from his career though. O6 era is not my strongest area, but I have done some reasearch and at his time there were quite many who consided him as the all-time best.

Just recently I saw Lynn Patricks top 15 from 1964. He actually had Brimsek as first (it was explained that his own player career did effect on that choice). Sawchuk was second. He said that time with Sawchuk in Bruins was one of the sourest memories of his hockey career and they didn´t get along. Yet he considered him better than Plante and Hall.

I remember the discussion and I kind of understand the reasoning why he has gone out of fashion. Still I have feeling that he might be underrated at the moment. Maybe part of it is that I have lately watched quite a lot of material of him . Fascinating goalie.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Sawchuk is interesting one. 5 from the (interesting) group of goalies ranked him first. Many of them can´t have personal memories from his career though. O6 era is not my strongest area, but I have done some reasearch and at his time there were quite many who consided him as the all-time best.

Just lately I saw Lynn Patricks top 15 from 1964. He actually had Brimsek as first (it was explained that his own player career did effect on that choice). Sawchuk was second. He said that time with Sawchuk in Bruins was one of the sourest memories of his hockey career and they didn´t get along. Yet he considered him better than Plante and Hall.

I remember the discussion and I kind of understand the reasoning why he has gone out of fashion. Still I have feeling that he might be underrated at the moment. Maybe part of it is that I have lately watched quite a lot of material of him . Fascinating goalie.

Interesting. Keep in mind that Sawchuk's peak was earlier than Plante or Hall's, and after 1964, the later two would add more to their resumes.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Fourteenth (on our list) seems about right to me. Where would you put him (and who would you have above him)?

Had Durnan 8th on my list.

Sounds like these guys did a great job.

 

[Cool Bryz]

Beckett Sports released a magazine titled Hockey's Greatest Goalies ($10 USD), which ranks the top-50 goalies in NHL history. Obviously the list isn't going to be anything special (though it includes 34 of our 40), but it's still a fun magazine and totally worth picking up. Each goaltender has a full-page profile, while the top-10 goalies have a two-page profile. Also there is a gallery of all current starting goaltenders, every team's top goaltending prospect, the best masks from the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s, and brief articles on Pelle Lindbergh and Martin Brodeur.

But even cooler is that you get the top-5 picks from Hardy Astrom, Steve Baker, Murray Bannerman, Gary Bromley, Tim Cheveldae, Robert Esche, Paul Harrison, Denis Herron, Corey Hirsch, Brent Johnson, Blaine Lacher, Mario Lessard, Pete LoPresti, Ron Low, Phile Myre, Pete Peeters, Andre Racicot, Bill Ranford, Damian Rhodes, Stephen Valiquette, and Jimmy Waite (and some unranked top-5 picks from others).

I did some tallying, and assuming a 10-7-5-3-1 ballot, the 21 votes (some of which had ties for certain places) would give us:

Patrick Roy, 112 (6-4-4-1-1)
Terry Sawchuk, 86 (5-3-1-3-1)
Martin Brodeur, 77 (2-5-2-2-6)
Glenn Hall, 54 (2-3-1-2-2)
Dominik Hasek, 54 (2-2-3-1-2)
Ken Dryden, 52 (2-2-1-4-1)
Jacques Plante, 51 (2-1-4-0-4)

Tony Esposito, 11 (0-1-0-1-1)
Roger Crozier, 10 (0-0-2-0-0)
Bernie Parent, 9 (0-0-0-3-0)
Grant Fuhr, 7 (0-0-1-0-2)
Ed Giacomin, 6 (0-0-1-0-1)
Frank Brimsek, 5 (0-0-1-0-0)
Henrik Lundqvist, 5 (0-0-1-0-0)
Ed Belfour, 3 (0-0-0-1-0)
Johnny Bower, 3 (0-0-0-1-0)
Curtis Joseph, 3 (0-0-0-1-0)
Mike Richter, 3 (0-0-0-1-0)
Turk Broda, 1 (0-0-0-0-1)
Chris Osgood, 1 (0-0-0-0-1)


It's fun to see that out of a sample of 21 goaltenders, every goaltender in our big-7 received multiple 1st place votes.

Brodeur vs Roy on the cover. I think I'll pass.

From the time Hasek became a starter to the time his prime ended neither Roy nor Brodeur won a Vezina. Yet they are both somehow better?

Yes, Roy's Vezina years with the Habs were great, but nothing better than what Hasek did in the 90's. And Brodeur had a couple of nice .920+ seasons, but certainly not Hart worthy.

Of course goalies will vote for the guys they saw play and Brodeur and Roy played for a couple decades while Hasek spent half his career in Europe.

It's incomprehensible to me...Hart shares, Vezinas, #of years leading the league in S% (6 Hasek, 4 Roy, 0-1 Brodeur)...anything that doesn't require that you play for a great team all favor Hasek.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Brodeur vs Roy on the cover. I think I'll pass.

From the time Hasek became a starter to the time his prime ended neither Roy nor Brodeur won a Vezina. Yet they are both somehow better?

Yes, Roy's Vezina years with the Habs were great, but nothing better than what Hasek did in the 90's. And Brodeur had a couple of nice .920+ seasons, but certainly not Hart worthy.

Of course goalies will vote for the guys they saw play and Brodeur and Roy played for a couple decades while Hasek spent half his career in Europe.

It's incomprehensible to me...Hart shares, Vezinas, #of years leading the league in S% (6 Hasek, 4 Roy, 0-1 Brodeur)...anything that doesn't require that you play for a great team all favor Hasek.

And the funny thing is that the same guys who made these lists that have Hasek lower than you'd like are the same ones who voted for the Hart and Vezina.

(Oh and career Hart shares actually favor Brodeur over Hasek, though he has the advantage in 1st place votes)

 

[Cool Bryz]

And the funny thing is that the same guys who made these lists that have Hasek lower than you'd like are the same ones who voted for the Hart and Vezina.

(Oh and career Hart shares actually favor Brodeur over Hasek, though he has the advantage in 1st place votes)

That's incredibly ironic! And, yeah, Hasek is not going to win any comparisons requiring longevity (total Hart votes...) since he did not play his entire career in the NHL.

Can anyone argue that Hasek did not have the best or second best prime AND peak?

Goalies

First Team All-Star (Prime)
Hall 7
Hasek 6
Durnan 6
Dryden 5
Roy 4
Brodeur 3
Plante 3
Sawchuk 3
Gardiner 3 (died in prime)
Benedict/Vezina?

Hart (Peak)
Hasek 2
Plante 1

If you want to add playoffs to the equation, then Roy enters the discussion with his 3 Smythes and Parent with his 2, but does anyone think they peaked higher than Hasek? Hasek was definitely the best player in the world in the late 90's (until Jagr perhaps surpassed him). Were Roy or Parent ever the best player in the world (not just goalie but PLAYER)?

Plante won a Hart and some people say Sawchuk had the highest peak, but do either of those things put them over Hall, who also won a Smythe? It seems to me that Sawchuk and Plante benefitted from playing on utterly dominant teams.

IMO, Hasek was the best of the 90's 3, Hall the best of the mid-century 3, and Durnan the best before them, with an honorable mention to Vezina and Benedict who may have been the 2 single best players of their era. Benedict in particular probably would have had 5-7 1st AS nods and a Hart or two (based on point shares, which I know is a flawed measure...).

People are able to look past longevity with Orr, who won 3 Harts but not with Hasek, who won 2 and came in second to Selke Fedorov and didn't even win his .937 year, which might be the best goaltending year ever.

It's difficult to understand...

 

[quoipourquoi]

If you want to add playoffs to the equation, then Roy enters the discussion with his 3 Smythes and Parent with his 2, but does anyone think they peaked higher than Hasek? Hasek was definitely the best player in the world in the late 90's (until Jagr perhaps surpassed him). Were Roy or Parent ever the best player in the world (not just goalie but PLAYER)?

You don't have to have the highest peak to be considered the best goaltender of all-time. Terry Sawchuk arguably had the highest peak in the position, but when other high-peak goaltenders such as Jacques Plante and Patrick Roy are compared to him, their best five years may not match Terry Sawchuk's best five years, but their 6th-18th best years could certainly be argued to tip the scales in their favor.

Patrick Roy does not enter the discussion because he has three Conn Smythe trophies. Three trophies do not define him. Patrick Roy enters the discussion because for 18 seasons - during which we saw some of the more drastic changes to the position - he always fell somewhere on the spectrum between one of the top handful of goaltenders (awards, nominations, All-Star selections in 12 of 18 seasons) and one of the few people who might be better than Wayne Gretzky at something (179-73 quality games in the playoffs; 40-18 in playoff overtime).

It's true that Patrick Roy, despite finishing top-5 in voting five times, does not have a Hart trophy. It's also true that the exact same people who awarded Jose Theodore the Hart trophy in 2001-02 voted that Patrick Roy was the better goaltender, so I would suggest that the Hart trophy is more team-influenced than you believe. And even then, it's still just a regular season award. Voters wouldn't exactly be lining up to heap praise on Dominik Hasek in 1996-97 if the voting was done after the playoffs; it would probably be Martin Brodeur's Hart and Vezina trophies. As much as we would like for every ounce of information from a given season to be perfectly captured and reflected in a voting share so that we can weigh some numbers 15-30 years later... it's not the case.

It's not wrong to believe that Dominik Hasek might be the best goaltender of all-time, but if you find the notion that Patrick Roy or anyone else might be the best goaltender of all-time to be "incomprehensible", then it could be a case of not looking beyond peak seasons, at which point you should give Terry Sawchuk another look too.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

You don't have to have the highest peak to be considered the best goaltender of all-time. Terry Sawchuk arguably had the highest peak in the position, but when other high-peak goaltenders such as Jacques Plante and Patrick Roy are compared to him, their best five years may not match Terry Sawchuk's best five years, but their 6th-18th best years could certainly be argued to tip the scales in their favor.

Patrick Roy does not enter the discussion because he has three Conn Smythe trophies. Three trophies do not define him. Patrick Roy enters the discussion because for 18 seasons - during which we saw some of the more drastic changes to the position - he always fell somewhere on the spectrum between one of the top handful of goaltenders (awards, nominations, All-Star selections in 12 of 18 seasons) and one of the few people who might be better than Wayne Gretzky at something (179-73 quality games in the playoffs; 40-18 in playoff overtime).

It's true that Patrick Roy, despite finishing top-5 in voting five times, does not have a Hart trophy. It's also true that the exact same people who awarded Jose Theodore the Hart trophy in 2001-02 voted that Patrick Roy was the better goaltender, so I would suggest that the Hart trophy is more team-influenced than you believe. And even then, it's still just a regular season award. Voters wouldn't exactly be lining up to heap praise on Dominik Hasek in 1996-97 if the voting was done after the playoffs; it would probably be Martin Brodeur's Hart and Vezina trophies. As much as we would like for every ounce of information from a given season to be perfectly captured and reflected in a voting share so that we can weigh some numbers 15-30 years later... it's not the case.

It's not wrong to believe that Dominik Hasek might be the best goaltender of all-time, but if you find the notion that Patrick Roy or anyone else might be the best goaltender of all-time to be "incomprehensible", then it could be a case of not looking beyond peak seasons, at which point you should give Terry Sawchuk another look too.

Its just the usual best player vs. best career argument.

That's why Hasek & Roy were a virtual dead heat for the top stop here.

 

[haakon84]

I really think Brodeur's peak is vastly underrated. It's unfortunate that he lost a season at the peak of his career but his stretch from '03-'08 is still incredible. I think if there was no lock out he could have had 1-2 more Vezina's. It was very apparent that he came back not at top form when the lockout ended.

His numbers post January post lockout is why he was #2 in Vezina voting that year. He went 29-9-4 with a 2.29 GAA and a .922 save % and 5 shutouts. He followed that season with one of the best goaltending seasons of all-time. If there was no work stoppage where he admitted he stayed away from the game I think he would have continued his stretch of incredible goaltending.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Now that its a couple seasons since the Top 40 goalie list was done, wondering if Lundqvist's rating would be changed significantly.

Though his regular season performances haven't really been much of a factor, it seems that Lundqvist's playoff performances were. His biggest knock at the time of the voting was failure in the playoffs. I would say he has shaken that off over the last few seasons.

He was 38th on the list. If voting were done today, would there be a significantly different outcome?