HOH Top 40 Goaltenders of All Time

[patnyrnyg]

And let me be clear on this: you are crazy. If anything, he is UNDERRATED. FIVE TIME MVP over his CSKA teammates is insane. Anything under Top 5 is inexcusable. #2 for me.

On a different issue: what is this "unsustainable style of play" that people attribute to Thomas and Cechmanek?

do you really think anyone on here cares about MVPs he won in the Soviet League?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

do you really think anyone on here cares about MVPs he won in the Soviet League?

Why wouldn't we care about them? He was competing against other Soviet players who proved to be able to give NHLers all they could handle.

That said, I think "5 MVP awards for Tretiak" can be countered by his relative lack of awards in the World Championships. From what I have gathered, the Soviets were never all that great at producing goalies to begin with, so by being much better than the rest of the Soviet goalies, Tretiak was incredibly valuable domestically, even if he wouldn't look so dominant, even competing against all the best Czechoslovakian and Swedish goalies, let alone NHLers.

 

[Sentinel]

Why wouldn't we care about them? He was competing against other Soviet players who proved to be able to give NHLers all they could handle.

That said, I think "5 MVP awards for Tretiak" can be countered by his relative lack of awards in the World Championships. From what I have gathered, the Soviets were never all that great at producing goalies to begin with, so by being much better than the rest of the Soviet goalies, Tretiak was incredibly valuable domestically, even if he wouldn't look so dominant, even competing against all the best Czechoslovakian and Swedish goalies, let alone NHLers.

There is another angle to look at this. AFAIK, when voting for the Soviet MVP, Soviet journalists took into account the international success. AAMOF to them (and all Soviet hockey world) international success was far more important than the domestic championship. So Tretiak's 5 MVPs were in part due to him backstopping CCCP to all those titles and being viewed as irreplaceable (as you have correctly pointed out).

As for the lack of international awards: I think, and VMBM can correct me if I am wrong, that CCCP's forwards were so dominant in international tournaments, they could not be snubbed. So the directorate rewarded defensemen and goalies instead.

The pickers of the Centennial Team managed to recognized Tretiak's value, selecting him as the goalie of the International Team of the Century. Also he was the first player not to play in the NHL to be inducted into the NHL HOF. Somebody must have been impressed

 

[Sprague Cleghorn]

The pickers of the Centennial Team managed to recognized Tretiak's value, selecting him as the goalie of the International Team of the Century. Also he was the first player not to play in the NHL to be inducted into the NHL HOF. Somebody must have been impressed

Not quite.

 

[johan f]

There are guys from the 20s there? I don't think you can do a list with goalies from that spread of decades.

 

[Doctor No]

I don't think you can do a list with goalies from that spread of decades.

Of course you can - the counterexample is in post #1.

 

[seventieslord]

If you want, but look at 1992. Richter finished higher in the all-star voting but Beezer finished higher in the Vezina voting.

What is your point?

 

[Michael Farkas]

On a different issue: what is this "unsustainable style of play" that people attribute to Thomas and Cechmanek?

Simply: They play different..."bad" different...so while it may work in the short term because they're playing "wrong" and do unexpected things...in the long term, they do not have the fundamental basis in which to improve upon and, too, when teams actually need to figure them out, they usually do because these type of styles are wrought with holes...

Teams that only play these guys every so often, generally won't put in an excessive amount of work on figuring out these flaws...when Calgary comes to town once a year to play Boston or whatever, they're probably just going to go play...it's like a knuckleball pitcher, you can spend all your time learning to hit this guy or you can just go out and play and wait for a normal guy...if you get a hit, you get a hit...if not, well, at least you didn't throw yourself off for weeks on end...

Teams you play most often, particularly rivals, will spend the time to figure these players out...that's why Montreal and Toronto often torched Thomas, just like even the lowly Penguins (at the time) torched Cechmanek...

And to that point, both were involuntarily jettisoned from the league due to their poor play after just a couple years each of relevancy...

 

[patnyrnyg]

What is your point?

My point is that all-star and vezina voting is not always the best indicator.

 

[ted2019]

Only goalie not on the top 40 with multiple Vezina's is Charlie Hodge. But he wasn't a first team all-star either time he won. Nor did he carry his team to a championship like Thomas did.

Just because Thomas has 2 Vezina's means nothing to me. Thomas was average at best the other 8 seasons. If awards are a big thing in this, Jose Theodore won a Hart Trophy and Vezina in the same season and really had a better overall career then Thomas, considering that Thomas had a better overall supporting cast then Theodore. Does Theodore make it then?

 

[ted2019]

Only goalie not on the top 40 with multiple Vezina's is Charlie Hodge. But he wasn't a first team all-star either time he won. Nor did he carry his team to a championship like Thomas did.

If you want, but look at 1992. Richter finished higher in the all-star voting but Beezer finished higher in the Vezina voting.

I don't understand the fascination over award voting in this comparison you trying to make.

 

[ted2019]

The Rangers making the right decision, at that point in time, does not necessarily mean that Richter was the better career NHL goaltender compared to Vanbiesbrouck.

And "they made the right decision because they won the Cup" is a weak argument, because it implies that every team that wins the Cup did so while making zero mistakes.

A factor on the Rangers choosing Richter over Vanbiesbrouck could've been as easy that Beezer was 3 years older then Richter.

 

[ted2019]

Simply: They play different..."bad" different...so while it may work in the short term because they're playing "wrong" and do unexpected things...in the long term, they do not have the fundamental basis in which to improve upon and, too, when teams actually need to figure them out, they usually do because these type of styles are wrought with holes...

Teams that only play these guys every so often, generally won't put in an excessive amount of work on figuring out these flaws...when Calgary comes to town once a year to play Boston or whatever, they're probably just going to go play...it's like a knuckleball pitcher, you can spend all your time learning to hit this guy or you can just go out and play and wait for a normal guy...if you get a hit, you get a hit...if not, well, at least you didn't throw yourself off for weeks on end...

Teams you play most often, particularly rivals, will spend the time to figure these players out...that's why Montreal and Toronto often torched Thomas, just like even the lowly Penguins (at the time) torched Cechmanek...

And to that point, both were involuntarily jettisoned from the league due to their poor play after just a couple years each of relevancy...

Being nuts also didn't help Cechmanek's cause either.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Simply: They play different..."bad" different...so while it may work in the short term because they're playing "wrong" and do unexpected things...in the long term, they do not have the fundamental basis in which to improve upon and, too, when teams actually need to figure them out, they usually do because these type of styles are wrought with holes...

Teams that only play these guys every so often, generally won't put in an excessive amount of work on figuring out these flaws...when Calgary comes to town once a year to play Boston or whatever, they're probably just going to go play...it's like a knuckleball pitcher, you can spend all your time learning to hit this guy or you can just go out and play and wait for a normal guy...if you get a hit, you get a hit...if not, well, at least you didn't throw yourself off for weeks on end...

Teams you play most often, particularly rivals, will spend the time to figure these players out...that's why Montreal and Toronto often torched Thomas, just like even the lowly Penguins (at the time) torched Cechmanek...

And to that point, both were involuntarily jettisoned from the league due to their poor play after just a couple years each of relevancy...

Actually, Thomas did jettison himself voluntarily. Took a year off at age 38.

As for that whole theory about teams that play them most often figure out the oddball goalie: Couldn't that be said for any goalie? And wouldn't that automatically mean teams would do well against those "wrought with holes" in playoffs, where they see them 7 games in a row? Yet Thomas' number were even better in the playoffs.

 

[Sentinel]

Simply: They play different..."bad" different...so while it may work in the short term because they're playing "wrong" and do unexpected things...in the long term, they do not have the fundamental basis in which to improve upon and, too, when teams actually need to figure them out, they usually do because these type of styles are wrought with holes...

And to that point, both were involuntarily jettisoned from the league due to their poor play after just a couple years each of relevancy...

Didn't we all hear this about Dominik Hasek? I wonder how did his career play out...

And Thomas was not "jettisoned from the league."

 

[Michael Farkas]

Actually, Thomas did jettison himself voluntarily. Took a year off at age 38.

As for that whole theory about teams that play them most often figure out the oddball goalie: Couldn't that be said for any goalie? And wouldn't that automatically mean teams would do well against those "wrought with holes" in playoffs, where they see them 7 games in a row? Yet Thomas' number were even better in the playoffs.

Stanley Cups are not won by averaging statistics...fans are. Thomas put each and every one of those series in serious, serious jeopardy except for the Philadelphia series. He constantly put his team behind the 8-ball. Right down to nearly losing that first round series to Montreal on a flutterball from distance that caught iron. I'll give him credit because he closed things out at the end of the day and that's what matters. But it was a very inconsistent performance throughout. He let in a lot of easy goals. Unlike the Cup predecessor Jonathan Quick the next season who probably had similar numbers but never left any series in doubt. Massive difference between the two goalies' play, lost in a sea of averaging statistics...

Thomas was buoyed by a heroic effort scoring-wise from that Boston team...

Thomas is currently not retired and does not have a job. If a team was interested, he would be playing in the NHL.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Didn't we all hear this about Dominik Hasek? I wonder how did his career play out...

No, we did not. Perhaps you did, but I didn't. Hasek's style vs. the others is not comparable. They may get lumped together as "non-butterfly or non-standup" but Hasek was a player all his own...major difference in the understanding of the geometry of the game...controlled chaos. Timing and anticipation both way higher than the others...not even close...

 

[MXD]

Just because Thomas has 2 Vezina's means nothing to me. Thomas was average at best the other 8 seasons. If awards are a big thing in this, Jose Theodore won a Hart Trophy and Vezina in the same season and really had a better overall career then Thomas, considering that Thomas had a better overall supporting cast then Theodore. Does Theodore make it then?

I realize that the comment I'm about to make is a bit idiotic, but what do you do with Bernard Parent?

Parent great seasons were better, but the career track is about similar -- the biggest difference is that Thomas had its better seasons later. And those arguing for Thomas could always claim he did in a somewhat "better" NHL as well.

.

Thomas is currently not retired and does not have a job. If a team was interested, he would be playing in the NHL.

I don't think it should be held against a goalie to not have a job at 40 years old. I mean, not at Thomas level.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I don't hold it against him, but in the face of "he's not out of the league because he's not good...he just...ya know...doesn't want to play anymore..." it should be mentioned. He's not good enough for this league, just like the first dozen years of his career...

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

A factor on the Rangers choosing Richter over Vanbiesbrouck could've been as easy that Beezer was 3 years older then Richter.

i have nothing to back this up other than my memories, but wasn't money also a factor? i remember reading that the more established and more decorated vanbiesbrouck was also more expensive so they went with the younger, cheaper guy who was just as good.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Stanley Cups are not won by averaging statistics...fans are. Thomas put each and every one of those series in serious, serious jeopardy except for the Philadelphia series. He constantly put his team behind the 8-ball. Right down to nearly losing that first round series to Montreal on a flutterball from distance that caught iron. I'll give him credit because he closed things out at the end of the day and that's what matters. But it was a very inconsistent performance throughout. He let in a lot of easy goals. Unlike the Cup predecessor Jonathan Quick the next season who probably had similar numbers but never left any series in doubt. Massive difference between the two goalies' play, lost in a sea of averaging statistics...

Thomas was buoyed by a heroic effort scoring-wise from that Boston team...

Thomas is currently not retired and does not have a job. If a team was interested, he would be playing in the NHL.

You could have played goal instead of Quick and LA could still have won that year. He faced over 300 less shots than Thomas did.

Funny, virtually every Bruins fan thinks they don't win that Cup without Thomas. He wins the Conn Smythe in a landslide. But your appraisal is that they won in spite of him.

Most NHL goalies don't have a job when they are 40.

 

[Killion]

Most NHL goalies don't have a job when they are 40.

Indeed not. Only 13 (including emergency backstopper Lester Patrick) over 40 and 5 at age 40; Thomas I believe turning 41 this year.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Just because Thomas has 2 Vezina's means nothing to me. Thomas was average at best the other 8 seasons. If awards are a big thing in this, Jose Theodore won a Hart Trophy and Vezina in the same season and really had a better overall career then Thomas, considering that Thomas had a better overall supporting cast then Theodore. Does Theodore make it then?

Tim Thomas had two top-ten finishes in save percentage (2005-06 and 2007-08) before his two Vezina trophies, so that statement is certainly incorrect. And yes, one of those top-ten finishes was without Claude Julien.

And those Vezina trophies should mean something to you, because he not only led the league in save percentage, but led his backups .933 to .910 and .938 to .918, so it's not all about the supporting cast.

If you don't believe Tim Thomas belongs on the list, you're welcome to name all of the goalies in NHL history who have led the league in save percentage multiple times as a starter and did not make the list. And then he has two extremely good playoff runs as well.

Stanley Cups are not won by averaging statistics...fans are. Thomas put each and every one of those series in serious, serious jeopardy except for the Philadelphia series. He constantly put his team behind the 8-ball. Right down to nearly losing that first round series to Montreal on a flutterball from distance that caught iron. I'll give him credit because he closed things out at the end of the day and that's what matters. But it was a very inconsistent performance throughout. He let in a lot of easy goals. Unlike the Cup predecessor Jonathan Quick the next season who probably had similar numbers but never left any series in doubt. Massive difference between the two goalies' play, lost in a sea of averaging statistics...

Thomas was buoyed by a heroic effort scoring-wise from that Boston team...

Thomas is currently not retired and does not have a job. If a team was interested, he would be playing in the NHL.

Oh, yes. Who could forget how Tim Thomas put the Vancouver series in serious jeopardy? Such a shame that he let in that goal that Roberto Luongo claimed he would have prevented with his style.

Of course, judging Tim Thomas' performance in the 2011 Finals solely on one goal as opposed to the other 238/245 saves in the series might be a mistake.

 

[jigglysquishy]

This will be a huge season for this list. Price will likely add a Vezina, but could also add a Hart/Lindsay as well.

Lundquist, Price, Rinne, or Quick could very well win the Smythe this year. Would go a long way to solidifying any of these goalie's legacies.

 

[Michael Farkas]

You could have played goal instead of Quick and LA could still have won that year. He faced over 300 less shots than Thomas did.

Funny, virtually every Bruins fan thinks they don't win that Cup without Thomas. He wins the Conn Smythe in a landslide. But your appraisal is that they won in spite of him.

Most NHL goalies don't have a job when they are 40.

Funny, I think the Bruins walk all over everyone's face if they had better goaltending. Besides maybe mobile puck-moving from the back line, goaltending was the biggest weakness of that team. It was evident in the goals allowed and games lost or jeopardized as a result of them.