BenchBrawl
Registered User
- Jul 26, 2010
- 31,120
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HOH 2022-23 Project: Top-60 Pre-Merger Players of All-Time Pre-Discussion thread
- Thread starter seventieslord
- Start date
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Professor What
Registered User
You're not alone. They largely feel like they're just stuck in places on my list as currently is. I kind of doubt that changes. They may move, but it's still going to mostly feel like stabs in the dark.
jigglysquishy
Registered User
Hmm... At the risk of coming off as too contrarian, I'm not sold on Paton. Good goalkeeper, surely, but I'm not seeing the type of praise other players (though not often goalies) were receiving in the press.
So while I do think it was quite likely that he was the best goalkeeper while he was in the league, I don't think he was that much better than some of his peers. And in a situation where we have to really consider the talent pool, I'm not sure if that make Paton worthy of our list. Of the times I have seen a goalie referred to as the best in Canada or playing hockey, so far I've got one mention of Lewis (for the Vics) in Jan 1894 and a mention of Stocking (Quebec) in March 1896. Stocking was even described as a 'bute' in January 1896.
Dolly Swift is definitely a fun character, though, and was a strong player in my readings. Quite a long career, especially for the era. Quite a temper too. I think he's on my list as well.
Grant likely makes it too, but I don't have his full career (I only have time to dig into one league, at the moment, and I chose the AHAC). So I am relying quite a bit on reputation for him.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
Paton might have been the best best goalie of his time but it seems he had the best defensive personnel helping him out, too. It's hard to assign credit to the correct individual(s).
jigglysquishy
Registered User
Can we get an eligible players list stickied to the top? Sounds like we agreed on Harry Oliver being eligible. I think we mostly resolved the issue for guys in the top ~40, but there will be some back half names that should get a firm judgement one way or the other.
I'm specifically thinking of George Hay. He played in the NHL until 1933 and was still playing great hockey until 1930. But his peak is in the WCHL 1922-1926. He technically fails the 1920 pro debut rule, but also clearly peaks before the merger.
Who is going to be the last born player on our list? I currently don't have anyone born after Babe Dye in 1898.
I'm specifically thinking of George Hay. He played in the NHL until 1933 and was still playing great hockey until 1930. But his peak is in the WCHL 1922-1926. He technically fails the 1920 pro debut rule, but also clearly peaks before the merger.
Who is going to be the last born player on our list? I currently don't have anyone born after Babe Dye in 1898.
I'm pretty sure (someone please correct me if I am wrong) we agreed on Hay being eligible.
Professor What
Registered User
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
jigglysquishy
Registered User
I'm nearing the end of my list, but go back to tinker multiple times a day.
I have the McNamara brothers back to back and I struggle who was actually better.
George is in the HHoF. Howard has the better numbers.
There's the famous Frank Selke letter
Between ourselves Mike - when George was admitted [to the Hall] Howard's wife told a friend of mine that George could not carry Howard's skates. I asked [Art] Ross and Lester [Patrick] about this and they said, which one was Howard?"
So much of what I read refers to the brothers together like we would do today with the Sedins. Was it writers writing or were they the 1a/1b situation?
Why did George get in and not Howard?
I have the McNamara brothers back to back and I struggle who was actually better.
George is in the HHoF. Howard has the better numbers.
There's the famous Frank Selke letter
Between ourselves Mike - when George was admitted [to the Hall] Howard's wife told a friend of mine that George could not carry Howard's skates. I asked [Art] Ross and Lester [Patrick] about this and they said, which one was Howard?"
So much of what I read refers to the brothers together like we would do today with the Sedins. Was it writers writing or were they the 1a/1b situation?
Why did George get in and not Howard?
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
It's a bit of a mystery. Howard is slightly better, by Iain Fyffe's methods. But in any case, how do you have room for either of them? There are plenty of star caliber players to choose from, and they don't seem to have been.
jigglysquishy
Registered User
I think Howard can be categorized as better in the 1915-1917 timeframe. He lead all defenseman in points in the 1916 NHA season and was at the same level in 1917, if not for the war ending his season.
I've been focusing on the 70-80 part of my list and have about 15 names I'm toying around with. Howard seems like a good fit, being maybe the ~25th best pre merger defenseman.
I keep getting caught on Howard reading better historically, but George being in the HHOF.
Professor What
Registered User
Is anyone else worried about missing guys? I just can't shake the idea that I'm going to miss guys that should be a lock.
seventieslord
Student Of The Game
We screen the lists so if you miss anyone that everyone else had, we'll let you know, and make sure that it wasn't an oversight on your part.
jigglysquishy
Registered User
There were 45 eligible names on the top 200 aggregate list.
I suspect all 45 make it onto our list, but I don't think all are on everyone's list.
We will have at least one list missing Dan Bain or Harry Trihey or Tom Paton. And the voting of all three (particularly Bain) is going to be all over the place.
I suspect all 45 make it onto our list, but I don't think all are on everyone's list.
We will have at least one list missing Dan Bain or Harry Trihey or Tom Paton. And the voting of all three (particularly Bain) is going to be all over the place.
Professor What
Registered User
I stupidly didn't think to check that list. Did you by any chance make a list of those players?
Right now, I've got Bain safely in the top 60 with Trihey and Paton on the bubble. (All in the top 80 though). Not that I consider my rankings scientific by any means...
jigglysquishy
Registered User
| Aggregate List | Name | Final List | Change | |||
| 1 | Frank Nighbor | 1 | 0 | |||
| 2 | Cyclone Taylor | 2 | 0 | |||
| 3 | Newsy Lalonde | 3 | 0 | |||
| 4 | Sprague Cleghorn | 4 | 0 | |||
| 5 | Georges Vezina | 5 | 0 | |||
| 6 | Clint Benedict | 7 | -1 | |||
| 7 | Joe Malone | 6 | +1 | |||
| 8 | Cy Denneny | 8 | 0 | |||
| 9 | Eddie Gerard | 9 | 0 | |||
| 10 | Russell Bowie | 10 | 0 | |||
| 11 | Tommy Phillips | 12 | -1 | |||
| 12 | Hod Stuart | 13 | -1 | |||
| 13 | Hugh Lehman | 11 | +2 | |||
| 14 | Georges Boucher | 15 | -1 | |||
| 15 | Moose Johnson | 16 | -1 | |||
| 16 | Mickey MacKay | 14 | +2 | |||
| 17 | Frank Frederickson | 17 | 0 | |||
| 18 | Babe Dye | 18 | 0 | |||
| 19 | Hap Holmes | NR (End of 200 discussion) | -2ish | |||
| 20 | Duke Keats | 19 | +1 | |||
| 21 | Lester Patrick |
| +1 | |||
| 22 | Harry Cameron | - | ||||
| 23 | Frank Foyston |
| ||||
| 24 | Didier Pitre |
| ||||
| 25 | Frank McGee | - | ||||
| 26 | Harvey Pulford | - | ||||
| 27 | Percy LeSueur | - | ||||
| 28 | Tommy Dunderdale | - | ||||
| 29 | George Hay | - | ||||
| 30 | Herb Gardiner | - | ||||
| 31 | Mike Grant | - | ||||
| 32 | Jack Darragh | - | ||||
| 33 | Art Ross | - | ||||
| 34 | Jack Walker | - | ||||
| 35 | Frank Patrick | - | ||||
| 36 | Joe Simpson | - | ||||
| 37 | Bernie Morris | - | ||||
| 38 | Art Duncan | - | ||||
| 39 | Paddy Moran | - | ||||
| 40 | Punch Broadbent | - | ||||
| 41 | Reg Noble | - | ||||
| 42 | Alf Smith | - | ||||
| 43 | Tom Paton | - | ||||
| 44 | Dan Bain | - | ||||
| 45 | Harry Trihey | - |
Professor What
Registered User
I guess it's time I start getting these out there- here is my attempt at reconstructing the 1887 AHAC season after looking through primary sources. I have several other seasons in various stages of completion, and while I won't get all the seasons posted before lists start being submitted, I should be able to get them all posted by before the submission deadline.
As I've written below- please point out any errors you notice or questions you may have.
Skater Stats
Goalie Stats
Note 1: Swift is listed as D. Swift, L. Swift, and A.E. Swift. I believe these are the same person, but I can’t be certain. For what it is worth, D. Swift is listed in game #2 (scoring 3 goals), L. Swift is listed in game #3 (scoring 3 goals), and A.E. Swift is listed in games #4 and 8 (scoring 2 goals). If they are indeed the same person, he scored 8 goals in just 4 games.
Note 2: I am missing some goals- game #1 (3 goals for the Victorias, 1 for McGill) had no goal information, while I’m missing goal information for a Montreal HC goal in game #3 and a Victorias goal in game #6.
Note 3: The Victorias had 2, possibly 3, Arntons play for them. J. Arnton is listed as starting the Vics’ first two games. T. Arnton starts the third, then J. Arnton is listed both in goal and as a forward in their fourth game (game #5 of the season). I’m chalking this up to a typo, and that T. Arnton was in goal (as he was listed in all the following Victorias’ games as the goalkeeper). However, there is the possibility that I am incorrect in this assessment, and that there were possibly two J. Arntons, or that J. Arnton was between the poles and T. Arnton was at forward. Take this however you will.
Note 4: I’m listing the 6 January game as an exhibition game for two reasons; 1) the 1887 wikipedia page says so, and, more importantly, 2) the following game did not start off with the winner of this game. In a challenge league, if this game had truly counted, the next game should have included the winner of this game. As such, I’m not including the stats from that game in the tables above. That said, one paper does call the 6 January game “[t]he first hockey match of the season, so… I don’t know. I’m including the game summary, lineups, and stats below, so people can make their own determinations.
Note 5: I did not do a thorough double-check to make sure all my numbers add up. Please let me know if you notice anything that looks off.
Exhibition Game #1: Montreal Victorias vs Montreal HC, 6 January 1887 at Victoria Rink (Montreal)
It seems like some guys who had previously played for the Crystals switched to Montreal HC (or M.A.A.A., as they are referred to) before the season, and they were a good addition, “setting the example in passing and following up”. W. Hodgson scores the first goal. Jack Campbell (listed at forward) has a couple nice rushes in the second game, but they don’t amount to much- the paper blames this on a lack of support from teammates. Robertson and Kinghorn are said to show promise. Hodgson also scores the second goal. Findlay and Hodgson later score for M.A.A.A. The game was apparently not rough at all.
Final score: 4-0 Montreal HC (M.A.A.A.)
Rosters
Victorias: T. Arnton in goal, A. Robertson at point, F. Stephenson at cover, J. Kinghorn, E.W. Barlow, J. Campbell, and A. Shearer at forward.
Montreal HC: W. Hutchison in goal, W. Hodgson at point, A. Cameron at cover, J. Findlay, Virtue, D. McIntyre, and A. McIntyre at forward.
Game #1: Montreal Crystals vs McGill University, 7 January 1887 at Crystal Rink (Montreal)
The Crystals had reportedly lost “five of their best men”, with Laing and McGoldrick at forward being the only veterans. As such, McGill looked like the favorite going into the game. Dowd and Lee were described as “crack skaters”, and were the other two forwards. The Crystal defense was good, while the McGill team “was lacking in the dash shown by their opponents”. W. Hamilton, Lucas, and Budden played well. The goal scorers were not listed.
Final Score: 3-1 Crystals
Rosters
Crystals: G. Boon in goal, W. Norris at point, J. McDonald at cover, J. McGoldrick, S. Lee, R. Laing, and F. Dowd at forward.
McGill: Shanks in goal, W. Hamilton at point, D. Lucas at cover, H. Budden, D. Hamilton, Meghan, and Warden at forward
Game #2: Montreal Crystals vs Montreal Victorias, 14 January 1887 at the Crystal Rink (Montreal)
Campbell and Muir were praised for “their long heads by playing well up to their forwards”, reducing the work the forwards had to do. Craven and Laing got into a fight. Only one goal was scored in the first half (by Swift), but the Vics scored 3 in the second half, Jack Campbell being described as doing “a grand piece of work for one” and Swift for the other 2. No assists are described. Dowd, Lee, and McDonnell are described as doing the “best work” for the Crystals, while Campbell, Sheare, Craven, and Swift were noted for the Vics.
Final Score: 4-0 Victorias
Rosters
Victorias: J. Arnton in goal, J. Muir at point, J. Campbell at cover, J. Craven, D. Swift, A. Shearer, and E. Barlow at forward.
Crystals: Shanks in goal, W. Norris at point, J. McDonnell at cover, F. Down, S. Lee, R. Laing, and J. McGoldrick at forward.
Game #3: Montreal Victorias vs Montreal HC (M.A.A.A.), 21 January 1887 at the Victoria Rink (Montreal)
Face was taken by Hodgson and Shearer. Craven scores quickly.Stewart and Cameron (M.A.A.A.) play well in the second game, as do E. Barlow, Shearer and Campbel (Vics). Arnton, the Vics’ goaltender, has the nickname ‘Stonewall’, which is pretty cool. Arnton played well and was applauded by the crowd. Barlow rushed the “ball”, then passed to Swift, who scored. Swift scores the third goal as well, no further information there. Arnton gets credit in the fourth game again, but Hodgson has a good run and M.A.A.A. scores. Finley, has to come out, and Paton comes in (interesting, Finley was NOT listed at goal, but at forward… but the paper said that this change “strengthened the home of M.A.A.A.” Is the roster provided wrong? Did they move Hutchinson to forward and put Paton at goal? No idea.). The fifth game gets a little rough, and then Swift scores. The scorer of the 6th goal (M.A.A.A.) is not listed. Campbell scores the final goal of the match “by a pretty piece of play”.
Final Score: 5-2 Victorias
Rosters
Victorias: J. Arnton in goal, J. Muir at point, J. Campbell at cover, L. Swift, J. Craven, and C. Barlow as centers, and A. Shearer is listed as captain.
M.A.A.A.: W. Hutchinson in goal, J.A. Stewart at point, A. Cameron at cover, J. Virtue, J. Finley, and D. McIntyre listed as center, and W. Hodgson as captain.
Game #4: Montreal Victorias vs Ottawa HC, 27 January 1887 at the Victoria Rink (Montreal)
Green and Arnton do the face. Lowe (Ottawa keeper) makes some nice saves early. J. Currier (Ottawa) scores. Campbell and Swift start doing some work. Campbell’s dodging is “something grand”, and he scores. Myles, Dey, and Green for Ottawa and Craven, Barlow and Shearer are noted as doing good work in the third game. Swift “doing big play”, Craven scores. The Vics run away with the second half, scoring three goals (Swift two, Shearer one). Green receives a cut and is replaced by Howe. For the entire game, Myles, Currier, and Lowe for Ottawa and “Swift, Campbell, Craven, Arnton, Barlow, and Shearer are noted as playing well by The Gazette; The Ottawa Journal said that Myles, Currier, and Lowe from Ottawa and Swift, Campbell and Arnton from the Vics were the notable players. Ottawa apparently had a smaller rink, which may have contributed to the loss. It should be noted that The Ottawa Journal listed the score as 4-1.
Final Score: 5-1 Victorias (probably)
Rosters
Victorias: T. Arnton in goal, J. Arnton at point, J. Campbell at cover, J. Craven, E. Barlow, A. Shearer, and A.E. Swift at forward
Ottawa: A. Lowe in goal, E. Dey at point, T.D. Green at cover (captain), P. Myles, G. Currier, H.S. Kirby, and J. Kerr at forward
Game #5: Montreal Victorias vs Montreal Crystals, 4 February 1887 at the Victoria Rink (Montreal)
The Crystals, particularly Dowd and McGoldrick, apparently played a little rough. Not a lot written about this one, Victorias won 3-0 with goals by Caven (x2) and J. Arnton. Campbell, Baxter, and Jack Arnton were described as “magnificent”. Laing stood out for the Crystals.
FInal Score: 3-0 Victorias
Rosters
Victorias: J. Arnton in goal, J. Muir at point, J. Campbell at cover, Baxter, Shearer, J. Arnton (captain), and J. Craven at forward.
Crystals: J. Norris in goal, R. Laing (captain) at point, C. Ellard at cover, J. McDonald, J. McGoldrick, F. Dowd, and S. McQuistan at forward.
I don’t know where Swift went, and I can’t explain the two J. Arntons. If I had to guess, the J. Arnton in goal is a typo and should be T. Arnton.
Game #6: Montreal Victorias vs McGill University, 12 February 1887 at the Victoria Rink (Montreal)
The Victorias ran away with this one. Campbell scores first, then Barlow, then Campbell again “by some brilliant work”. Campbell is called a “stone wall” on defense, with Muir and T. Arnton “thoroughly able to second him”. Campbell again scores, this time as a result of “a fine run from one end of the rink, dodging all”. The goal is described as the “finest of the game”. Play is reportedly contained to McGill ice. The Victorias were credited with fine combination play, with Campbell “being the most prominent”. Lucas and Wylde for McGill were praised for their efforts.
Final Score: 6-0 Victorias
Rosters
Victorias: T. Arnton in goal, J. Muir at point, J. Campbell at cover, Andy Shearer, E. Barlow, J. Arnton (captain), and J. Craven in goal. J. Kinghorn as a reserve.
McGill: C.H. McNutt in goal, A.L. Shanks at point, F.M. Lucas (captain) at cover, W. Warden, H.A. Budden, C.F. Wyde, and D. Hamilton at forward. F. Meighn as a reserve.
Game #7: Montreal Victorias vs Montreal Crystals, 24 February 1887 at the Victoria ink (Montreal)
While the previous game seemed rather dull, this is described as a good game, with back and forth action, though it was possibly due to the Vics not being up to their usual standard. McQuisten scored the first game, the only one scored in the first half. Shearer is the next to score “after fine work”. Jack Arnton lifts the puck from near center to break the tie and win the game for the Victorias. Norris in net played a “magnificent game”, while Laing and McGoldrick also received credit for good play. For the Victorias, Barlow, Shearer, and Jack Arnton were singled out as having played well. Campbell was also mentioned as “being conspicuous for the fine runs he made at times, making his way through all the players, and when it was thought he would wind up by scoring his best efforts would be frustrated by the fine goal keeping of Norris”.
Final Score: 2-1 Victorias
Rosters
Victorias: T. Arnton in goal, Jas. Muir at point, J. Campbell at cover, J. Arnton, A. Shearer, E. Barlow, and J. Craven at forward.
Crystals: W. Norris in goal, R. Laing (captain) at point, C. Allard at cover, J. McDonald, S. McQuisten, D. Brown, and J.F. McGoldrick at forward.
Game #8: Montreal Victorias vs Montreal Crystals, 11 March 1887 at the Victoria Rink (Montreal)
The Vics’ usual point (Muir) was out, so Jack Arnton shifted from his usual spot at forward. Swift makes his return, filling Arnton’s position up front. McQuisten scores the first game, and, “after some good play”, the second. The Crystals took this 2-0 lead into the half. A halftime adjustment by the Victorias saw J. Arnton and Shearer switch places, which appears to have worked well for them. However, Brown scores, giving the Crystals a 3-0 lead. Jack Arnton scores a goal, also “after some good play”, and shortly after takes a shot that richoches off of McDonald’s back into the net. The papers make reference to another disputed goal by the Vics, but it looks like that went nowhere. Norris, McDonald, and Elliot were listed as the best players on the Crystals, while Jack Arnton, Campbell, and Barlow were the best of the Vics. Swift was apparently strong in the second half.
Final Score: 3-2 Crystals
Rosters
Victorias: T. Arnton in goal, J. Arnton (captain) at point, J. Campbell at cover, A.E. Swift, E. Barlow, J. Craven, and A. Shearer at forward.
Crystals: W. Norris in goal, J. McDonald at point, C. Ellard (captain) at cover, D. Brown, S. McQuisten, D.A. Elliott, and W. Drysdale at forward.
Season Summary:
This is a hard season to really get a read on. It’s super short, only one newspaper covered it in any detail, and even that was at a very basic level for some of the games. Additionally, the whole challenge style makes the games played remarkably unbalanced- total stats are thus somewhat misleading/unreliable. And speaking of reliability, assists were never mentioned, and only once was I able to find an occasion in which an assist would likely have been given out today.
Given all the issues mentioned above, I’m not going to attempt to make an all-star team or give out the whole list of awards for this season. Swift (if we are saying all the Swifts are really 1) was clearly the top scorer (and in only 4 games), but he didn’t get a lot of comments outside of scoring. Campbell scored a good deal and seems to have gotten the most good press, so I’d say he’d be my vote for MVP, if I had to make a choice.
As I've written below- please point out any errors you notice or questions you may have.
| Team | Wins | Losses | Ties | Goals Scored | Goals Allowed |
| Montreal Victorias | 6 | 1 | 0 | 27 | 7 |
| Montreal Crystals | 2 | 3 | 0 | 7 | 4 |
| Montreal HC | 0 | 1 | 0 | 2 | 5 |
| Ottawa HC | 0 | 1 | 0 | 1 | 5 |
| McGill University | 0 | 2 | 0 | 1 | 9 |
Skater Stats
| Player Name | Team | Position | Goals | Assists | Points |
| Dolly Swift | Montreal Victorias | Forward | 8 | 0 | 8 |
| Jack Campbell | Montreal Victorias | Cover-point | 6 | 0 | 6 |
| Jack Arnton | Montreal Victorias | Goal, Point, Forward | 5 | 0 | 5 |
| J. Craven | Montreal Victorias | Forward | 4 | 0 | 4 |
| Sam McQuisten | Montreal Crystals | Forward | 3 | 0 | 3 |
| Andy Shearer | Montreal Victorias | Forward | 2 | 0 | 2 |
| E. Barlow | Montreal Victorias | Center | 1 | 1 | 2 |
| D. Brown | Montreal Crystals | Forward | 1 | 0 | 1 |
| J. Currier | Ottawa HC | Forward | 1 | 0 | 1 |
| W. Hodgson | Montreal HC | Forward | 1 | 0 | 1 |
Goalie Stats
| Name | Team | Games Played | Goals Allowed | GAA |
| T. Arnton | Victorias | 5 | 5 | 1.00 |
| J. Arnton | Victorias | 2 | 2 | 1.00 |
| Boon | Crystals | 1 | 1 | 1.00 |
| Norris | Crystals | 3 | 7 | 2.33 |
| Shanks | McGill/Crystals | 2 | 7 | 3.50 |
| Hutchinson | Montreal HC | 1 | 5 | 5.00 |
| Lowe | Ottawa HC | 1 | 5 | 5.00 |
| McNutt | McGill | 1 | 6 | 6.00 |
Note 1: Swift is listed as D. Swift, L. Swift, and A.E. Swift. I believe these are the same person, but I can’t be certain. For what it is worth, D. Swift is listed in game #2 (scoring 3 goals), L. Swift is listed in game #3 (scoring 3 goals), and A.E. Swift is listed in games #4 and 8 (scoring 2 goals). If they are indeed the same person, he scored 8 goals in just 4 games.
Note 2: I am missing some goals- game #1 (3 goals for the Victorias, 1 for McGill) had no goal information, while I’m missing goal information for a Montreal HC goal in game #3 and a Victorias goal in game #6.
Note 3: The Victorias had 2, possibly 3, Arntons play for them. J. Arnton is listed as starting the Vics’ first two games. T. Arnton starts the third, then J. Arnton is listed both in goal and as a forward in their fourth game (game #5 of the season). I’m chalking this up to a typo, and that T. Arnton was in goal (as he was listed in all the following Victorias’ games as the goalkeeper). However, there is the possibility that I am incorrect in this assessment, and that there were possibly two J. Arntons, or that J. Arnton was between the poles and T. Arnton was at forward. Take this however you will.
Note 4: I’m listing the 6 January game as an exhibition game for two reasons; 1) the 1887 wikipedia page says so, and, more importantly, 2) the following game did not start off with the winner of this game. In a challenge league, if this game had truly counted, the next game should have included the winner of this game. As such, I’m not including the stats from that game in the tables above. That said, one paper does call the 6 January game “[t]he first hockey match of the season, so… I don’t know. I’m including the game summary, lineups, and stats below, so people can make their own determinations.
Note 5: I did not do a thorough double-check to make sure all my numbers add up. Please let me know if you notice anything that looks off.
Exhibition Game #1: Montreal Victorias vs Montreal HC, 6 January 1887 at Victoria Rink (Montreal)
It seems like some guys who had previously played for the Crystals switched to Montreal HC (or M.A.A.A., as they are referred to) before the season, and they were a good addition, “setting the example in passing and following up”. W. Hodgson scores the first goal. Jack Campbell (listed at forward) has a couple nice rushes in the second game, but they don’t amount to much- the paper blames this on a lack of support from teammates. Robertson and Kinghorn are said to show promise. Hodgson also scores the second goal. Findlay and Hodgson later score for M.A.A.A. The game was apparently not rough at all.
Final score: 4-0 Montreal HC (M.A.A.A.)
Rosters
Victorias: T. Arnton in goal, A. Robertson at point, F. Stephenson at cover, J. Kinghorn, E.W. Barlow, J. Campbell, and A. Shearer at forward.
Montreal HC: W. Hutchison in goal, W. Hodgson at point, A. Cameron at cover, J. Findlay, Virtue, D. McIntyre, and A. McIntyre at forward.
| Team | Goal Scorer | Assist | Assist |
| Montreal HC | W. Hodgson | N/A | N/A |
| Montreal HC | W. Hodgson | N/A | N/A |
| Montreal HC | J. Findlay | N/A | N/A |
| Montreal HC | W. Hodgson | N/A | N/A |
Game #1: Montreal Crystals vs McGill University, 7 January 1887 at Crystal Rink (Montreal)
The Crystals had reportedly lost “five of their best men”, with Laing and McGoldrick at forward being the only veterans. As such, McGill looked like the favorite going into the game. Dowd and Lee were described as “crack skaters”, and were the other two forwards. The Crystal defense was good, while the McGill team “was lacking in the dash shown by their opponents”. W. Hamilton, Lucas, and Budden played well. The goal scorers were not listed.
Final Score: 3-1 Crystals
Rosters
Crystals: G. Boon in goal, W. Norris at point, J. McDonald at cover, J. McGoldrick, S. Lee, R. Laing, and F. Dowd at forward.
McGill: Shanks in goal, W. Hamilton at point, D. Lucas at cover, H. Budden, D. Hamilton, Meghan, and Warden at forward
Game #2: Montreal Crystals vs Montreal Victorias, 14 January 1887 at the Crystal Rink (Montreal)
Campbell and Muir were praised for “their long heads by playing well up to their forwards”, reducing the work the forwards had to do. Craven and Laing got into a fight. Only one goal was scored in the first half (by Swift), but the Vics scored 3 in the second half, Jack Campbell being described as doing “a grand piece of work for one” and Swift for the other 2. No assists are described. Dowd, Lee, and McDonnell are described as doing the “best work” for the Crystals, while Campbell, Sheare, Craven, and Swift were noted for the Vics.
Final Score: 4-0 Victorias
Rosters
Victorias: J. Arnton in goal, J. Muir at point, J. Campbell at cover, J. Craven, D. Swift, A. Shearer, and E. Barlow at forward.
Crystals: Shanks in goal, W. Norris at point, J. McDonnell at cover, F. Down, S. Lee, R. Laing, and J. McGoldrick at forward.
| Team | Goal Scorer | Assist | Assist |
| Victorias | Swift | N/A | N/A |
| Victorias | Campbell | N/A | N/A |
| Victorias | Swift | N/A | N/A |
| Victorias | Swift | N/A | N/A |
Game #3: Montreal Victorias vs Montreal HC (M.A.A.A.), 21 January 1887 at the Victoria Rink (Montreal)
Face was taken by Hodgson and Shearer. Craven scores quickly.Stewart and Cameron (M.A.A.A.) play well in the second game, as do E. Barlow, Shearer and Campbel (Vics). Arnton, the Vics’ goaltender, has the nickname ‘Stonewall’, which is pretty cool. Arnton played well and was applauded by the crowd. Barlow rushed the “ball”, then passed to Swift, who scored. Swift scores the third goal as well, no further information there. Arnton gets credit in the fourth game again, but Hodgson has a good run and M.A.A.A. scores. Finley, has to come out, and Paton comes in (interesting, Finley was NOT listed at goal, but at forward… but the paper said that this change “strengthened the home of M.A.A.A.” Is the roster provided wrong? Did they move Hutchinson to forward and put Paton at goal? No idea.). The fifth game gets a little rough, and then Swift scores. The scorer of the 6th goal (M.A.A.A.) is not listed. Campbell scores the final goal of the match “by a pretty piece of play”.
Final Score: 5-2 Victorias
Rosters
Victorias: J. Arnton in goal, J. Muir at point, J. Campbell at cover, L. Swift, J. Craven, and C. Barlow as centers, and A. Shearer is listed as captain.
M.A.A.A.: W. Hutchinson in goal, J.A. Stewart at point, A. Cameron at cover, J. Virtue, J. Finley, and D. McIntyre listed as center, and W. Hodgson as captain.
| Team | Goal Scorer | Assist | Assist |
| Victorias | Craven | N/A | N/A |
| Victorias | Swift | Barlow | N/A |
| Victorias | Swift | N/A | N/A |
| M.A.A.A. | Hodgson | N/A | N/A |
| Victorias | Swift | N/A | N/A |
| M.A.A.A. | N/A | N/A | N/A |
| Victorias | Campbell | N/A | N/A |
Game #4: Montreal Victorias vs Ottawa HC, 27 January 1887 at the Victoria Rink (Montreal)
Green and Arnton do the face. Lowe (Ottawa keeper) makes some nice saves early. J. Currier (Ottawa) scores. Campbell and Swift start doing some work. Campbell’s dodging is “something grand”, and he scores. Myles, Dey, and Green for Ottawa and Craven, Barlow and Shearer are noted as doing good work in the third game. Swift “doing big play”, Craven scores. The Vics run away with the second half, scoring three goals (Swift two, Shearer one). Green receives a cut and is replaced by Howe. For the entire game, Myles, Currier, and Lowe for Ottawa and “Swift, Campbell, Craven, Arnton, Barlow, and Shearer are noted as playing well by The Gazette; The Ottawa Journal said that Myles, Currier, and Lowe from Ottawa and Swift, Campbell and Arnton from the Vics were the notable players. Ottawa apparently had a smaller rink, which may have contributed to the loss. It should be noted that The Ottawa Journal listed the score as 4-1.
Final Score: 5-1 Victorias (probably)
Rosters
Victorias: T. Arnton in goal, J. Arnton at point, J. Campbell at cover, J. Craven, E. Barlow, A. Shearer, and A.E. Swift at forward
Ottawa: A. Lowe in goal, E. Dey at point, T.D. Green at cover (captain), P. Myles, G. Currier, H.S. Kirby, and J. Kerr at forward
| Team | Goal Scorer | Assist | Assist |
| Ottawa HC | J. Currier | N/A | N/A |
| Victorias | Campbell | N/A | N/A |
| Victorias | Craven | N/A | N/A |
| Victorias | Swift | N/A | N/A |
| Victorias | Swift | N/A | N/A |
| Victorias | Shearer | N/A | N/A |
Game #5: Montreal Victorias vs Montreal Crystals, 4 February 1887 at the Victoria Rink (Montreal)
The Crystals, particularly Dowd and McGoldrick, apparently played a little rough. Not a lot written about this one, Victorias won 3-0 with goals by Caven (x2) and J. Arnton. Campbell, Baxter, and Jack Arnton were described as “magnificent”. Laing stood out for the Crystals.
FInal Score: 3-0 Victorias
Rosters
Victorias: J. Arnton in goal, J. Muir at point, J. Campbell at cover, Baxter, Shearer, J. Arnton (captain), and J. Craven at forward.
Crystals: J. Norris in goal, R. Laing (captain) at point, C. Ellard at cover, J. McDonald, J. McGoldrick, F. Dowd, and S. McQuistan at forward.
I don’t know where Swift went, and I can’t explain the two J. Arntons. If I had to guess, the J. Arnton in goal is a typo and should be T. Arnton.
| Team | Goal Scorer | Assist | Assist |
| Victorias | J. Craven | N/A | N/A |
| Victorias | J. Craven | N/A | N/A |
| Victorias | J. Arnton | N/A | N/A |
Game #6: Montreal Victorias vs McGill University, 12 February 1887 at the Victoria Rink (Montreal)
The Victorias ran away with this one. Campbell scores first, then Barlow, then Campbell again “by some brilliant work”. Campbell is called a “stone wall” on defense, with Muir and T. Arnton “thoroughly able to second him”. Campbell again scores, this time as a result of “a fine run from one end of the rink, dodging all”. The goal is described as the “finest of the game”. Play is reportedly contained to McGill ice. The Victorias were credited with fine combination play, with Campbell “being the most prominent”. Lucas and Wylde for McGill were praised for their efforts.
Final Score: 6-0 Victorias
Rosters
Victorias: T. Arnton in goal, J. Muir at point, J. Campbell at cover, Andy Shearer, E. Barlow, J. Arnton (captain), and J. Craven in goal. J. Kinghorn as a reserve.
McGill: C.H. McNutt in goal, A.L. Shanks at point, F.M. Lucas (captain) at cover, W. Warden, H.A. Budden, C.F. Wyde, and D. Hamilton at forward. F. Meighn as a reserve.
| Team | Goal Scorer | Assist | Assist |
| Victorias | Campbell | N/A | N/A |
| Victorias | Barlow | N/A | N/A |
| Victorias | Campbell | N/A | N/A |
| Victorias | Campbell | N/A | N/A |
| Victorias | N/A | N/A | N/A |
| Victorias | J. Arnton | N/A | N/A |
Game #7: Montreal Victorias vs Montreal Crystals, 24 February 1887 at the Victoria ink (Montreal)
While the previous game seemed rather dull, this is described as a good game, with back and forth action, though it was possibly due to the Vics not being up to their usual standard. McQuisten scored the first game, the only one scored in the first half. Shearer is the next to score “after fine work”. Jack Arnton lifts the puck from near center to break the tie and win the game for the Victorias. Norris in net played a “magnificent game”, while Laing and McGoldrick also received credit for good play. For the Victorias, Barlow, Shearer, and Jack Arnton were singled out as having played well. Campbell was also mentioned as “being conspicuous for the fine runs he made at times, making his way through all the players, and when it was thought he would wind up by scoring his best efforts would be frustrated by the fine goal keeping of Norris”.
Final Score: 2-1 Victorias
Rosters
Victorias: T. Arnton in goal, Jas. Muir at point, J. Campbell at cover, J. Arnton, A. Shearer, E. Barlow, and J. Craven at forward.
Crystals: W. Norris in goal, R. Laing (captain) at point, C. Allard at cover, J. McDonald, S. McQuisten, D. Brown, and J.F. McGoldrick at forward.
| Team | Goal Scorer | Assist | Assist |
| Crystals | McQuisten | N/A | N/A |
| Victorias | Shearer | N/A | N/A |
| Victorias | J. Arnton | N/A | N/A |
Game #8: Montreal Victorias vs Montreal Crystals, 11 March 1887 at the Victoria Rink (Montreal)
The Vics’ usual point (Muir) was out, so Jack Arnton shifted from his usual spot at forward. Swift makes his return, filling Arnton’s position up front. McQuisten scores the first game, and, “after some good play”, the second. The Crystals took this 2-0 lead into the half. A halftime adjustment by the Victorias saw J. Arnton and Shearer switch places, which appears to have worked well for them. However, Brown scores, giving the Crystals a 3-0 lead. Jack Arnton scores a goal, also “after some good play”, and shortly after takes a shot that richoches off of McDonald’s back into the net. The papers make reference to another disputed goal by the Vics, but it looks like that went nowhere. Norris, McDonald, and Elliot were listed as the best players on the Crystals, while Jack Arnton, Campbell, and Barlow were the best of the Vics. Swift was apparently strong in the second half.
Final Score: 3-2 Crystals
Rosters
Victorias: T. Arnton in goal, J. Arnton (captain) at point, J. Campbell at cover, A.E. Swift, E. Barlow, J. Craven, and A. Shearer at forward.
Crystals: W. Norris in goal, J. McDonald at point, C. Ellard (captain) at cover, D. Brown, S. McQuisten, D.A. Elliott, and W. Drysdale at forward.
| Team | Goal Scorer | Assist | Assist |
| Crystals | McQuisten | N/A | N/A |
| Crystals | McQuisten | N/A | N/A |
| Crystals | Brown | N/A | N/A |
| Victorias | J. Arnton | N/A | N/A |
| Victorias | J. Arnton | N/A | N/A |
Season Summary:
This is a hard season to really get a read on. It’s super short, only one newspaper covered it in any detail, and even that was at a very basic level for some of the games. Additionally, the whole challenge style makes the games played remarkably unbalanced- total stats are thus somewhat misleading/unreliable. And speaking of reliability, assists were never mentioned, and only once was I able to find an occasion in which an assist would likely have been given out today.
Given all the issues mentioned above, I’m not going to attempt to make an all-star team or give out the whole list of awards for this season. Swift (if we are saying all the Swifts are really 1) was clearly the top scorer (and in only 4 games), but he didn’t get a lot of comments outside of scoring. Campbell scored a good deal and seems to have gotten the most good press, so I’d say he’d be my vote for MVP, if I had to make a choice.
Black Gold Extractor
Registered User
- May 4, 2010
- 3,092
- 4,967
Thank you for doing this! The Wikipedia entries are supposedly transcriptions from Ultimate Hockey. However, given that there were mismatches between Wikipedia and Elite Prospects for several players (as well as some player player pages on Wikipedia itself, such as Arthur Farrell), I've been treating Wikipedia's season summaries as "suspicious".
jigglysquishy
Registered User
I'm looking for some information on point James Stewart from the late 1880s early 1890s Montreal AAA club.
Allan Cameron and Tom Paton are well studied and Paton even has his own Wikipedia page. Information on Stewart is scarce.
Outside the Ian Fyffe article and Ultimate Hockey I can find basically zero about him. Not even a birth year.
Is he the 1b to Allan Cameron? Are Cameron and Paton the only players from that Montreal club worthy of our list?
Allan Cameron and Tom Paton are well studied and Paton even has his own Wikipedia page. Information on Stewart is scarce.
Outside the Ian Fyffe article and Ultimate Hockey I can find basically zero about him. Not even a birth year.
Is he the 1b to Allan Cameron? Are Cameron and Paton the only players from that Montreal club worthy of our list?
Professor What
Registered User
Haviland Routh should probably be there as well, shouldn't he?
I found this old thread on the board. It appears you were correct that A.E. Swift and Dolly Swift are one and the same.
jigglysquishy
Registered User
Yes absolutely. I should have mentioned him.
The Fyffe article refers to Paton, Cameron, and Stewart as a defensive unit.
Professor What
Registered User
Professor What
Registered User
Btw, I just realized that I knew Dolly Swift's real name. Sorry for insulting anyone's intelligence with that a bit ago. I don't have any information on the "L. Swift" listing though.
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