HOH 2022-23 Project: Top-60 Pre-Merger Players of All-Time Pre-Discussion thread

[Professor What]

Okay, so first of all, I want to make it very clear that this isn't intended as criticism to anyone, because we're definitely talking with an era that hasn't received the attention that other eras have, and I don't claim to be one of the more knowledgeable members on the subject, but do any of you guys think that the ATD has thus far failed to give some of the earliest stars their proper credit?

I mean, Mike Grant gets love (rightfully so), but outside of him, you've got to go pretty deep into the drafts to find 1880s and 1890s era players taken. Even then, we're talking about guys like Bain and Drinkwater, who are likely on the board because we know them from the Hall. Take somebody like Bob McDougall as an example. If my search on the Google spreadsheet was accurate, he's been chosen exactly once, and that was at pick #838 in ATD #12. I know that team needs play a role, but do team needs really push someone like him that far down? I'm early in making my list, and it's very much up to be influenced, but right now, I actually think the guy might make the top half of my list.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Okay, so first of all, I want to make it very clear that this isn't intended as criticism to anyone, because we're definitely talking with an era that hasn't received the attention that other eras have, and I don't claim to be one of the more knowledgeable members on the subject, but do any of you guys think that the ATD has thus far failed to give some of the earliest stars their proper credit?

I mean, Mike Grant gets love (rightfully so), but outside of him, you've got to go pretty deep into the drafts to find 1880s and 1890s era players taken. Even then, we're talking about guys like Bain and Drinkwater, who are likely on the board because we know them from the Hall. Take somebody like Bob McDougall as an example. If my search on the Google spreadsheet was accurate, he's been chosen exactly once, and that was at pick #838 in ATD #12. I know that team needs play a role, but do team needs really push someone like him that far down? I'm early in making my list, and it's very much up to be influenced, but right now, I actually think the guy might make the top half of my list.

I think the issue with stars that early is we have such a poor understanding of what they played like which is a bigger deal in the ATD.

In ATD 2011 @overpass selected Dan Bain with this bio
ATD2011 Bio Thread

5 quotes from 4 secondary sources

It takes someone who is dedicated to picking and exploring a player, putting in the work to try and get them their due and in ATD for players that at best are probably going to be spares no one puts the research effort into it.

In my top 80 list, I'll make an effort to find some room for 1890s stars, but they have a tough road to go because the generation following them Bowie/Russell is much better explored and their dominance is easier contrasted with the next group of stars in Taylor/Lalonde

 

[Professor What]

I think the issue with stars that early is we have such a poor understanding of what they played like which is a bigger deal in the ATD.

In ATD 2011 @overpass selected Dan Bain with this bio
ATD2011 Bio Thread

5 quotes from 4 secondary sources

It takes someone who is dedicated to picking and exploring a player, putting in the work to try and get them their due and in ATD for players that at best are probably going to be spares no one puts the research effort into it.

That's a very fair point, but I'm really wondering if some of the top guys shouldn't be considered "roster quality," if that makes sense. Like I said before, Grant gets that kind of respect, which, again, I'm in full support of, but he can't be the only one, can he?

 

[ResilientBeast]

That's a very fair point, but I'm really wondering if some of the top guys shouldn't be considered "roster quality," if that makes sense. Like I said before, Grant gets that kind of respect, which, again, I'm in full support of, but he can't be the only one, can he?

They could be, but ATD player rankings have so much inertia it takes a concerted effort on the part of posters to change it's direction. You could make the best McDougal bio ever and it could take 3/4 drafts of him slowing getting picked and making gains before someone can reap the rewards of the effort (in drafting sense, I acknowledge the research is also often a lot of fun)

 

[ResilientBeast]

They could be, but ATD player rankings have so much inertia it takes a concerted effort on the part of posters to change it's direction. You could make the best McDougal bio ever and it could take 3/4 drafts of him slowing getting picked and making gains before someone can reap the rewards of the effort (in drafting sense, I acknowledge the research is also often a lot of fun)

This is part of why I'm trying to steer completely away from even looking at my ATD spreadsheets because they're really based on ATD-meta value.

The gap in draft pick between Tommy Phillips and Russell Bowie if transposed to this project would be absolutely crazy to me

 

[nabby12]

I think the issue with stars that early is we have such a poor understanding of what they played like which is a bigger deal in the ATD.

In ATD 2011 @overpass selected Dan Bain with this bio
ATD2011 Bio Thread

5 quotes from 4 secondary sources

It takes someone who is dedicated to picking and exploring a player, putting in the work to try and get them their due and in ATD for players that at best are probably going to be spares no one puts the research effort into it.

In my top 80 list, I'll make an effort to find some room for 1890s stars, but they have a tough road to go because the generation following them Bowie/Russell is much better explored and their dominance is easier contrasted with the next group of stars in Taylor/Lalonde

I took Dan Bain a few years ago in ATD and didn't feel he got much respect either. Not that I took the time to argue his case much, so that's kind of on me. But he is one of the most underrated players in ATD history.

FYI, Bain ranked 10th in my 2017 book "Golden Boys: The Top 50 Manitoba Hockey Players of All Time." Maybe he's not 10 if I re-do the list today, but his top-10 placing will always be justified as he's still the one that carried Winnipeg to their first and last Stanley Cup!

I will post the whole Bain chapter from my book once we get going, as I'm sure it's got some nuggets in there that will be useful.

Before I forget, Tony Gingras is another Winnipeg Victorias' player I've researched and written about in the past, so I will post what I have on him as well. He's likely the first Metis and French-Canadian Player to win the Stanley Cup.

 

[nabby12]

I just scanned through Iain Fyffe's lists of 1880s-1920s players and there's really no one there that we haven't already discussed, and he even has them pretty much in the order we would:

For post-1910:
Benedict
Vezina
Lehman
Holmes
Lesueur

For 1900s:
Moran
Hern
Hutton

For 1890s, no one.

For 1880s, only Paton.

Off the top of my head, if we ended up with 9 goalies and it was them, I'd be pretty satisfied. I hope we discuss a few others, though.

George "Whitey" Merritt from the Winnipeg Victorias of the 1890s is another goalie who should be given consideration and one I'd like to do some additional research on.

Whitey was credited with being the first goalie to use cricket pads for leg protection, and with introducing the goalie stick with a wider shaft and blade than other players' sticks.

 

[jigglysquishy]

A collection of the Iain Fyffe lists. All players with a score over 90

Player	Score	Era	Position
Russell Bowie	136.7	1900s	Forward
Cyclone Taylor	116.5	1910s	Forward
Newsy Lalonde	113.4	1910s	Forward
Georges Boucher	112.9	1920s	Defenseman
Didier Pitre	110.3	1910s	Forward/Defenseman
Frank Nighbor	109.3	1920s	Forward
Clint Benedict	108.6	1920s	Goalie
Moose Johnson	108.1	1910s	Forward/Defenseman
Lester Patrick	103.5	1910s	Defenseman

Eddie Gerard	103.1	1910s	Defenseman
Tommy Smith	102.9	1910s	Forward
Georges Vezina	102.7	1910s	Goalie
Hugh Lehman	101.9	1910s	Goalie
Joe Malone	101.7	1910s	Forward
Harvey Pulford	99.6	1900s	Defenseman
Micky MacKay	99.3	1920s	Forward
Jack Marshall	99.1	1900s	Forward/Defenseman
Bob McDougall	98.2	1890s	Forward
Cy Denneny	98.0	1920s	Forward

Sprague Cleghorn	97.0	1910s	Defenseman
Hap Holmes	96.9	1910s	Goalie
Reg Noble	96.2	1920s	Forward
Frank Foyston	96.0	1910s	Forward
Jack Walker	95.7	1910s	Forward
Harry Smith	95.5	1900s	Forward
Odie Cleghorn	94.8	1910s	Forward
Harry Cameron	94.5	1910s	Defenseman
Tommy Phillips	91.2	1900s	Forward
Duke Keats	90.4	1920s	Forward

And Joe Simpson at 90.2, 1920s Defenseman.

Our list will not look like this. But I think all these names will make our list.

Things like Nighbor, Malone, and Cleghorn being very low stick out to me. So does Bowie being first.

His methodology rewards longevity, so it's about 90% post 1910 players.

 

[ResilientBeast]

A collection of the Iain Fyffe lists. All players with a score over 90

Player	Score	Era	Position
Russell Bowie	136.7	1900s	Forward
Cyclone Taylor	116.5	1910s	Forward
Newsy Lalonde	113.4	1910s	Forward
Georges Boucher	112.9	1920s	Defenseman
Didier Pitre	110.3	1910s	Forward/Defenseman
Frank Nighbor	109.3	1920s	Forward
Clint Benedict	108.6	1920s	Goalie
Moose Johnson	108.1	1910s	Forward/Defenseman
Lester Patrick	103.5	1910s	Defenseman

Eddie Gerard	103.1	1910s	Defenseman
Tommy Smith	102.9	1910s	Forward
Georges Vezina	102.7	1910s	Goalie
Hugh Lehman	101.9	1910s	Goalie
Joe Malone	101.7	1910s	Forward
Harvey Pulford	99.6	1900s	Defenseman
Micky MacKay	99.3	1920s	Forward
Jack Marshall	99.1	1900s	Forward/Defenseman
Bob McDougall	98.2	1890s	Forward
Cy Denneny	98.0	1920s	Forward

Sprague Cleghorn	97.0	1910s	Defenseman
Hap Holmes	96.9	1910s	Goalie
Reg Noble	96.2	1920s	Forward
Frank Foyston	96.0	1910s	Forward
Jack Walker	95.7	1910s	Forward
Harry Smith	95.5	1900s	Forward
Odie Cleghorn	94.8	1910s	Forward
Harry Cameron	94.5	1910s	Defenseman
Tommy Phillips	91.2	1900s	Forward
Duke Keats	90.4	1920s	Forward

And Joe Simpson at 90.2, 1920s Defenseman

I get the guy has done the most research on this era of anyone, but unless he's an active participant I'm steering clear of relying on a lot of his statistics. They have value of course, but as I tried to reproduce them with the scant instructions on his blog it's just opaque enough to be impossible to reproduce which he fully acknowledges as there are enough fudges in there to open a candy store in Banff.

I'm treating his meritious man lists as people who should be considered but will fully ignore them for rankings.

Edit: His positions are somewhat incorrect. Taylor is a CP/Rover/Center and Lester played a fair amount of Rover besides P & CP

 

[ResilientBeast]

Off the top of my head the PCHA players (excluding 1-2 season wonders) who should make the list

Goalies
Hugh Lehman
Hap Holmes

Defense
Ernie Johnson
Frank Patrick
Lester Patrick
Art Duncan
Bobby Rowe
Lloyd Cook
Si Griffis (mainly for outside the PCHA tho)

Forwards
Cyclone Taylor
Tommy Dunderdale
Mickey MacKay
Frank Foyston
Jack Walker
Smokey Harris
Bernie Morris
Eddie Oatman
Frank Frederickson

That's 18 names right there I will absolutely find room in the top 60 for and there are a bunch of other fringe guys. Any names I missed off the top of my head?

 

[ResilientBeast]

Another good thing to discuss is going to be the hierarchy of star power on the dominant teams of the era.

For Ottawa I'd defer to @BenchBrawl

I assume Nighbor and Gerard were the "stars" of the team, but Benedict vs Denneny vs Boucher would be a worthwhile exploration (and I'm pretty sure he's done it before) especially as almost their entire unit will make the list.

Vancouver out west it was pretty easily
Taylor > Lehman > MacKay in terms of raw star power

Seattle out west was probably
Foyston > Holmes > Walker > Morris > Rowe at their peak.

 

[Sanf]

Charles Stewart was a name poking around the backend of my goalie list. He was very strong in the OHA, but struggled coming into the NHL. It depends on how many goalies I end up with, but I have him around 10-12 right now. I struggle with quantifying the strength of the OHA. The NHA and PCHA are the clear league kings in the 1910s, but I do not know the gap between them and the top amateur leagues. What is the talent gap between the OHA and NHA of 1915? Are we talking present day NHL/AHL, where anything in the AHL is largely discarded? Or are we talking closer to 1972-~1975 NHL/WHA, where the WHA competition was high and part of legitimate comparison?

I'm also interested in pre-Bowie dominance. If we say he established himself as the best ever offensive player in the 1904-1908 time period, who is he taking that crown from?

There is ton of what ifs regarding that age group from 1890 to 1896. Lot of players lost time due to war. Lot of decided not to turn pro or went to "hidden" pro leagues. Only really Benedict from goalies wanted and could focus to pro hockey. And Hainsworth who is 10 months younger came to pro hockey much later.

Doc Stewart did seemingly have a very good OHA career. I could probably see him in the mix of goalies like McCuscker, McCulloch, Turner, Fowler... from that age group.

I guess one goalie that is worth looking from that age group is Hal Winkler. Good senior career in Manitoba starting from 1913-1914. Challenged for Allan Cup in 1918. Then moved to SSHL 1919-1920 where he was very likely paid. Then after really good offer was bought to Edmonton Eskimos for 1921-1922 season in WCHL. Arguably best goalie there before PCHA/WCHL "merger". Mixed but decent results in 2 seasons in NHL after merger. Two times on losing side of Stanley Cup.

 

[jigglysquishy]

Is anyone planning on not taking Nighbor first? Looking at the 2018 list, he got about 2/3rds of the top vote for pre merger players. Taylor got most of the rest. If my counting is correct, Lalonde is the only other player to get a first place vote.

I'm leaning towards Nighbor, but I don't think Taylor is too far behind. Certainly, the mass media reputation for Taylor and Malone are ahead of Nighbor.

Anyone bold enough to take Cleghorn or Bowie first? A goalie? Is there another name I'm missing?

 

[Dreakmur]

I think the issue with stars that early is we have such a poor understanding of what they played like which is a bigger deal in the ATD.

In ATD 2011 @overpass selected Dan Bain with this bio
ATD2011 Bio Thread

5 quotes from 4 secondary sources

It takes someone who is dedicated to picking and exploring a player, putting in the work to try and get them their due and in ATD for players that at best are probably going to be spares no one puts the research effort into it.

In my top 80 list, I'll make an effort to find some room for 1890s stars, but they have a tough road to go because the generation following them Bowie/Russell is much better explored and their dominance is easier contrasted with the next group of stars in Taylor/Lalonde

That’s the biggest issue with the early guys. Even with some of the more known players like Hod Stuart, Russel Bowie, and Harvey Pulford, it was quite challenging to put together convincing cases that they played a particular way.

Era competition is another huge issue. Just like any sport, the first iteration is so different than what it has evolved into that you can hardly even consider it the same sport. More importantly, so few people even played that it’s hard to fully credit the great players without great evidence. Somebody had to be the best.

Is anyone planning on not taking Nighbor first? Looking at the 2018 list, he got about 2/3rds of the top vote for pre merger players. Taylor got most of the rest. If my counting is correct, Lalonde is the only other player to get a first place vote.

I'm leaning towards Nighbor, but I don't think Taylor is too far behind. Certainly, the mass media reputation for Taylor and Malone are ahead of Nighbor.

Anyone bold enough to take Cleghorn or Bowie first? A goalie? Is there another name I'm missing?

Nighbor is not a lock for #1 on my list, that’s for sure.

 

[Neutrinos]

Read the room. People are excited about this project within parameters that are far from your philosophy. Find a tribe that shares your views and want to engage in your hobby, or adjust to what people are doing here. When in Rome, do as the Romans do, or get lost.

No need, I've been reading this room for years and the script never changes

 

[seventieslord]

That’s the biggest issue with the early guys. Even with some of the more known players like Hod Stuart, Russel Bowie, and Harvey Pulford, it was quite challenging to put together convincing cases that they played a particular way.

Era competition is another huge issue. Just like any sport, the first iteration is so different than what it has evolved into that you can hardly even consider it the same sport. More importantly, so few people even played that it’s hard to fully credit the great players without great evidence. Somebody had to be the best.



Nighbor is not a lock for #1 on my list, that’s for sure.

Which means you're participating?

 

[ResilientBeast]

No need, I've been reading this room for years and the script never changes

 

[Professor What]

No need, I've been reading this room for years and the script never changes

Dude. If you have nothing better to do than step into a thread where people are engaging in something they enjoy simply to crap all over it for your own jollies, do the decent thing and see yourself out to get a life. Geez.

 

[ResilientBeast]

@seventieslord just so we have an idea, how long should we expect this open chat phase of the project to last?

Just want to make sure I don't leave it to the last minute to build a list.

 

[Professor What]

I'm list building now. Kind of a first gut instinct sort of thing to be edited as points are made and my mind is changed.

 

[seventieslord]

@seventieslord just so we have an idea, how long should we expect this open chat phase of the project to last?

Just want to make sure I don't leave it to the last minute to build a list.

This is good discussion so we can keep going as long as necessary. Lists won't be due for a long time still.

I'm list building now. Kind of a first gut instinct sort of thing to be edited as points are made and my mind is changed.

think I may do the same. I need to get a sense for who there's easily room for, and who is in trouble.

 

[jigglysquishy]

The more I read the more impressed I am with Didier Pitre. Looking like he might make it into my top 15. I knew very little about him a month ago, but he looks like a top top player of the 1910s.

One thing that sticks out evaluating him though is his 1915-16 NHA season. His 15 assists is not only by far the most that season, but by far the most of any player in NHA history. Is this a reflection of his playmaking pedigree? Or did the Canadiens get "extra" attention for assists from their timekeeper? He never approached this number again until 1920, where assists were more liberally given out.

I know pre 1930 assists are hit and miss, but his assists stick out amongst peers.

 

[ResilientBeast]

The more I read the more impressed I am with Didier Pitre. Looking like he might make it into my top 15. I knew very little about him a month ago, but he looks like a top top player of the 1910s.

One thing that sticks out evaluating him though is his 1915-16 NHA season. His 15 assists is not only by far the most that season, but by far the most of any player in NHA history. Is this a reflection of his playmaking pedigree? Or did the Canadiens get "extra" attention for assists from their timekeeper? He never approached this number again until 1920, where assists were more liberally given out.

I know pre 1930 assists are hit and miss, but his assists stick out amongst peers.

Pitre is a real interesting player especially for the purposes of this project and looking at league quality.

IPHL for 3 years
NHA for 4 years
PCHA for 1 year
Back east to end his career.

His scoring record is muddy because he played RW/Rover/CP during his career.

@ImporterExporter has a pretty thorough bio from a couple seasons ago ATD 2015 Bio Thread taking @EagleBelfour's season by season position breakdown.

1903-04|FAHL|Montreal Nationals|D
1904-05|IHL|Michigan Soo Indians|?
1905-06|IHL|Michigan Soo Indians|RW
1906-07|IHL|Michigan Soo Indians|RW
1907-08|ECAHA|Montreal Shamrocks|?
1908-09|FAHL|Renfrew Creamery Kings |D
1909-10|NHA|Montreal Canadiens|D
1910-11|NHA|Montreal Canadiens|D
1911-12|NHA|Montreal Canadiens|RW
1912-13|NHA|Montreal Canadiens|RW
1913-14|PCHA|Vancouver Millionaires|Rover
1914-15|NHA|Montreal Canadiens|RW
1915-16|NHA|Montreal Canadiens|RW
1916-17|NHA|Montreal Canadiens|RW
1917-18|NHL|Montreal Canadiens|RW
1918-19|NHL|Montreal Canadiens|RW/D
1919-20|NHL|Montreal Canadiens|RW
1920-21|NHL|Montreal Canadiens|RW
1921-22|NHL|Montreal Canadiens|D
1922-23|NHL|Montreal Canadiens|D

 

[ResilientBeast]

Pitre is a real interesting player especially for the purposes of this project and looking at league quality.

IPHL for 3 years
NHA for 4 years
PCHA for 1 year
Back east to end his career.

His scoring record is muddy because he played RW/Rover/CP during his career.

@ImporterExporter has a pretty thorough bio from a couple seasons ago ATD 2015 Bio Thread taking @EagleBelfour's season by season position breakdown.

1903-04|FAHL|Montreal Nationals|D
1904-05|IHL|Michigan Soo Indians|?
1905-06|IHL|Michigan Soo Indians|RW
1906-07|IHL|Michigan Soo Indians|RW
1907-08|ECAHA|Montreal Shamrocks|?
1908-09|FAHL|Renfrew Creamery Kings |D
1909-10|NHA|Montreal Canadiens|D
1910-11|NHA|Montreal Canadiens|D
1911-12|NHA|Montreal Canadiens|RW
1912-13|NHA|Montreal Canadiens|RW
1913-14|PCHA|Vancouver Millionaires|Rover
1914-15|NHA|Montreal Canadiens|RW
1915-16|NHA|Montreal Canadiens|RW
1916-17|NHA|Montreal Canadiens|RW
1917-18|NHL|Montreal Canadiens|RW
1918-19|NHL|Montreal Canadiens|RW/D
1919-20|NHL|Montreal Canadiens|RW
1920-21|NHL|Montreal Canadiens|RW
1921-22|NHL|Montreal Canadiens|D
1922-23|NHL|Montreal Canadiens|D

He'd be probably the 3rd most important player on the Canadiens of the time period after Lalonde and Vezina as well.

So it depends on how much you think that is worth how high up he can possibly go. The 10s Habs were pretty strong, making the "Finals" against the PCHA 3 out of 4 years with a win and a tie in there.

 

[seventieslord]

The more I read the more impressed I am with Didier Pitre. Looking like he might make it into my top 15. I knew very little about him a month ago, but he looks like a top top player of the 1910s.

One thing that sticks out evaluating him though is his 1915-16 NHA season. His 15 assists is not only by far the most that season, but by far the most of any player in NHA history. Is this a reflection of his playmaking pedigree? Or did the Canadiens get "extra" attention for assists from their timekeeper? He never approached this number again until 1920, where assists were more liberally given out.

I know pre 1930 assists are hit and miss, but his assists stick out amongst peers.

When it comes to statistics that are sparsely recorded or where sample sizes do not allow for high numbers to be attained, I don't think we can be as confident in the numbers. For a fakez random example, to say a defenseman led the 1936 playoffs in goals by a defenseman with two isn't really that meaningful. I would be much more interested to know that he had the most goals by defenseman in the 1930s, with 11. Similarly with a player like this, I would be interested to know what his assist per game average looked like over a decade, compared to the usual suspects.