HOH 2022-23 Project: Top-60 Pre-Merger Players of All-Time Pre-Discussion thread

[Professor What]

For whatever it's worth, @seventieslord identified Dutton as out in the first couple pages. I leaned pretty hard on the page 1-3 discussions to determine eligibility.

I missed that somehow. I guess I'll need to make some adjustments.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

For whatever it's worth, @seventieslord identified Dutton as out in the first couple pages. I leaned pretty hard on the page 1-3 discussions to determine eligibility.

I think I would have had Dutton in - I think his Hart votes late in his career were as a player/coach hybrid, while he had more star power as a player early, but I'm very late to the party and am fine with the earlier decision.

I missed that somehow. I guess I'll need to make some adjustments.

Don't worry, I missed it too (I also privately asked 70s about Dutton)

 

[seventieslord]

12 lists are locked and loaded.

I've got 8 names to cut, then my list is in.

waiting on @VanIslander, @BenchBrawl , @ImporterExporter ,and, I believe, @Sturminator and @Batis

done waiting on the not-answering people.

But these three, have said they're in, but haven't sent in a list or confirmed they're out. Name and Shame:

@Mike Farkas
@Sanf
@Pominville Knows

18 is still in the cards, I think.

 

[Sturminator]

Sorry, I don't think I'll be able to devote enough time to this to make my participation worthwhile.

But anyway, good luck with your layoffs, alright. I hope your firings go really well.

 

[Pominville Knows]

Only in a perfect world i would be able to participate.
In other words; wishful thinking at the time i signed up.
Well i mean; in two weeks time i might be able to, wholly uncertain about that, but i simply lack even a draft for a first round list.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Weldy Young is an absolute beauty. What an underrated player.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Submitted my list. I'm fairly happy with the top 50-60 on it, beyond that it's probably hot garbage. I could spend a week or two tweaking it, but I waited too long to start; oh well, that's what round 2 discussion is for!

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

OT, but if anyone is thinking of joining the All Time Draft for the first time, we decided to let 1st and 2nd time GMs get first choice of drafting position this year.

 

[Professor What]

Submitted my list. I'm fairly happy with the top 50-60 on it, beyond that it's probably hot garbage. I could spend a week or two tweaking it, but I waited too long to start; oh well, that's what round 2 discussion is for!

I feel okay about my top half. You're doing better than I am. I just had to go ahead and submit when the submissions opened because I was just driving myself crazy with it.

 

[Habsfan18]

I think there’ll be a crap ton of variance in these lists once they’re eventually shared. Someone may have a player at 40 where two other people didn’t even have them crack their top 80. I imagine the 50-80 slots in particular are all over the map.

I know I struggled with the placements of defensemen, big time. So much so that I sent @seventieslord like 4 different lists because I kept making tweaks - at one point after further research I moved a guy up 30 slots or so. I had a much easier time with the forwards. Well, I shouldn’t say “easy” but I had a pretty good idea where I was slotting certain forwards right away.

 

[Dr John Carlson]

Yeah, I'm not at all confident about how I ranked defensemen, or for that matter, how many of them I actually ranked. I tried not to let them get lost in the shuffle.

How many goalies did people have?

 

[Habsfan18]

Weldy Young is an absolute beauty. What an underrated player.

He didn’t make my top 80, but admittedly I don’t know a whole lot about him..not that there’s a whole lot out there beyond Paul Kitchen’s book. I certainly welcome being swayed to move him up.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I feel okay about my top half. You're doing better than I am. I just had to go ahead and submit when the submissions opened because I was just driving myself crazy with it.

I might have been exaggerating when I said I was happy about 50-60

 

[BenchBrawl]

He didn’t make my top 80, but admittedly I don’t know a whole lot about him..not that there’s a whole lot out there beyond Paul Kitchen’s book. I certainly welcome being swayed to move him up.

Just read rmartin65's posts in this thread

 

[Habsfan18]

Just read rmartin65's posts in this thread

I read a good chunk of it and plan on reading the rest soon (awesome work in those posts) but I worked on and submitted my list before seeing the post. So I was just going based on what I knew at the time.

 

[BenchBrawl]

I read a good chunk of it and plan on reading the rest soon (awesome work in those posts) but I worked on and submitted my list before seeing the post. So I was just going based on what I knew at the time.

Send an updated list.

Read all rmartin65's posts in rafale before doing so, it is worth it.

 

[Habsfan18]

I know..I know..sample size and calibre of competition and all that stuff..but I’m really interested to see how many people left room for Hobey Baker and if so, where he slots in the final rankings. He made my list. He was viewed as a star, certainly enough so that he can be considered a top 80 player from the era he played in, IMO.

 

[Professor What]

Yeah, I'm not at all confident about how I ranked defensemen, or for that matter, how many of them I actually ranked. I tried not to let them get lots in the shuffle.

How many goalies did people have?

I've got nine myself. I was surprised at how big of a gap I had between six and seven though.

@seventieslord I know I've got to make an adjustment for Dutton. Is it alright by you if I hold off on updating until after the initial screening? I'd prefer not to drive myself crazy with internal debates any more than I can help.

 

[Habsfan18]

I believe I had 7 goaltenders on my list.

Edit: 8.

 

[jigglysquishy]

I had 10 goalies. Nicholson snuck in at the end.

Vezina and Benedict are locks for top 20, and will be in most of our top 10s.

Lehman, LeSueur, Holmes, and Hern are locks. I suspect they're in everyone's top 80, and almost all top 60s. The aforementioned 6 should be on every list

Moran and Hutton should be viewed as locks too, though I can see them being outside the top 60 on some lists.

I view Paton as a lock, but I can see why he would get excluded. Early early era, playing in front of lights out defense.

I doubt anyone has more than 11, or fewer than 6.

 

[Habsfan18]

I had 10 goalies. Nicholson snuck in at the end.

Vezina and Benedict are locks for top 20, and will be in most of our top 10s.

Lehman, LeSueur, Holmes, and Hern are locks. I suspect they're in everyone's top 80, and almost all top 60s. The aforementioned 6 should be on every list

Moran and Hutton should be viewed as locks too, though I can see them being outside the top 60 on some lists.

I view Paton as a lock, but I can see why he would get excluded. Early early era, playing in front of lights out defense.

I doubt anyone has more than 11, or fewer than 6.

I had Vezina, Benedict, Lehman, LaSueur, Holmes, Moran, Hern, and Forbes. So 8 goaltenders, actually.

But it’s certainly possible I’m overvaluing Forbes and undervaluing Hutton. Hell, I might be the only one with Jake Forbes on my list lol He played on some awful clubs. I squeezed him in towards the very end.

 

[seventieslord]

I think there’ll be a crap ton of variance in these lists once they’re eventually shared. Someone may have a player at 40 where two other people didn’t even have them crack their top 80. I imagine the 50-80 slots in particular are all over the map.

I know I struggled with the placements of defensemen, big time. So much so that I sent @seventieslord like 4 different lists because I kept making tweaks - at one point after further research I moved a guy up 30 slots or so. I had a much easier time with the forwards. Well, I shouldn’t say “easy” but I had a pretty good idea where I was slotting certain forwards right away.

Since I'm compiling all the lists into a spreadsheet I'm going to use that as an opportunity to screen my own list. If I notice I'm super high or low on a player compared to everyone else, and I don't have a good reason why, I may update on the fly before calling my submission final.

I won't be doing that to everyone, though. (I won't be sending people messages saying "hey, you have Harry Hyland up at 35th, while he's only on 3/4 of lists and always between 50th and 80th")

I've got nine myself. I was surprised at how big of a gap I had between six and seven though.

@seventieslord I know I've got to make an adjustment for Dutton. Is it alright by you if I hold off on updating until after the initial screening? I'd prefer not to drive myself crazy with internal debates any more than I can help.

no problem at all.

 

[Dr John Carlson]

Hell, I might be the only one with Jake Forbes on my list lol He played on some awful clubs.

I may be the only one who threw a bone to Hal Winkler at the tail end of my list.

 

[rmartin65]

Weldy Young is an absolute beauty. What an underrated player.

He didn’t make my top 80, but admittedly I don’t know a whole lot about him..not that there’s a whole lot out there beyond Paul Kitchen’s book. I certainly welcome being swayed to move him up.

Weldy Young should absolutely be on everyone's list. I have seen nothing in primary sources that indicate that Mike Grant was any better than him.

The very idea of Young being left off a list is making me very, very sad.

Long story short- he was either the best or a close second-best coverpoint in the AHAC (and, thus, quite possibly the world) from 1892 (maybe 1893) until he went west for non-hockey reasons after the 1899 CAHL season. He was a good skater, contributed offensively and defensively, and was physical.

He was, also, quite possibly a lunatic, and once attacked a fan in the stands for heckling him.

 

[nabby12]

I may be the only one who threw a bone to Hal Winkler at the tail end of my list.

No, I also had Winkler. And Whitey Merritt too.