Hockey Cards - Part III

CutOnDime97

Too Showman
Mar 29, 2008
15,840
10,013
New to the hobby. Brand new. Slowly trying to learn about everything and I am starting to wonder if "Breaking Culture" has truly affected not only the price of boxes, but also hurting collectors? I am trying to be smart and remind myself that I do not want to join this hobby to "make money" but at the same time, I don't want to feel like I am throwing my money COMPLETELY away and it would nice to feel somewhat assured that there is decent value in some boxes.

Many have said hockey cards haven't quite suffered as much as other sports and Pokemon, but before I go out and buy a couple hobby boxes of Series One, I paused and started to wonder if a long-time collector has noticed a major shift in the hobby, and if it is worth it nowadays to be one of those nostalgic consumers who walks into a shop, buys a box or two and rips wax on their own.

Obviously it is almost never economical to open a box yourself, but is it at the point where it is borderline throwing away hundreds of dollars with little potential in terms of value? I do not mind just building a personal collection, purely for fun, but it is still something in the back of my mind. What would you recommend for a new collector in the hobby who wants a balance of fun and value? Do you recommend it at all?
Honestly, I wouldn't recommend opening boxes or breaking at all. The products have gotten more watered down and prices gave gone up. It's really not enjoyable. I've opened maybe 2 boxes in the past year or so and felt extremely ripped off both times.

I'd recommend setting up saved searches on the eBay and COMC apps and building a collection buying singles. I watch a few YouTube channels that rip boxes (Zeeree, GP Sports Cards, Mainely Hockey Cards) to get the jist of new products and get my fix that way.
 
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dr robbie

Let's Go Pens!
Feb 21, 2012
3,191
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Pittsburgh
Obviously it is almost never economical to open a box yourself, but is it at the point where it is borderline throwing away hundreds of dollars with little potential in terms of value? I do not mind just building a personal collection, purely for fun, but it is still something in the back of my mind. What would you recommend for a new collector in the hobby who wants a balance of fun and value? Do you recommend it at all?

Watch some youtube videos of people doing hockey card box breaks. They'll drop hundreds / thousands of dollars and be excited when they get a third of the value back in cards. It's completely a waste of money right out the gate unless you can supplement in another way like streaming the video. And that's not even factoring in that you need to move it fairly quickly, which takes time and effort. I'd recommend just buying want you want from a seller. It's cheaper and you actually get what you want rather than some extremely low chance of getting it. Nearly all of the cards you get are going to be worthless in a decade, so I would not say it's a good investment.
 

Craig Ludwig

Registered User
Jun 16, 2005
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856
Watch some youtube videos of people doing hockey card box breaks. They'll drop hundreds / thousands of dollars and be excited when they get a third of the value back in cards. It's completely a waste of money right out the gate unless you can supplement in another way like streaming the video. And that's not even factoring in that you need to move it fairly quickly, which takes time and effort. I'd recommend just buying want you want from a seller. It's cheaper and you actually get what you want rather than some extremely low chance of getting it. Nearly all of the cards you get are going to be worthless in a decade, so I would not say it's a good investment.
Bang on!
 

shakes the clown

Registered User
Jan 11, 2010
1,141
814
Chicago
well, I learned my lesson with PSA. Sent in 200 cards from my late father's collection and got them back this week. Expecting some 10s in there as there were a lot of great conditioned cards from the 70s and 80s. Also some older stuff that we didn't expect to grade well.

Got them back and only one 10 in the whole 200 card lot. Grades all over the place. Sent in several of the same cards and the grades make no sense. some look identical and yet one card gets a 9 and the other gets a 6.

I'm convinced that they are more concerned with population control vs giving an honest grade. I'll never send another card to them or any grading company. Nothing but a scam.
 

frightenedinmatenum2

Registered User
Sep 30, 2023
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well, I learned my lesson with PSA. Sent in 200 cards from my late father's collection and got them back this week. Expecting some 10s in there as there were a lot of great conditioned cards from the 70s and 80s. Also some older stuff that we didn't expect to grade well.

Got them back and only one 10 in the whole 200 card lot. Grades all over the place. Sent in several of the same cards and the grades make no sense. some look identical and yet one card gets a 9 and the other gets a 6.

I'm convinced that they are more concerned with population control vs giving an honest grade. I'll never send another card to them or any grading company. Nothing but a scam.

That sucks to get back that many cards consistently lower than you expected. Your only option would be to resub the ones you think were snubbed, and hope the grader's wife didn't give him crap that morning and he is in a good mood.

Grading is gambling, the same way as opening a box is because there is no real objective criteria or consistency with the grading companies. The same card can be sent in multiple times and receive a different grade.

It annoys me that the hobby puts so much value in the grading services. The only reason people send cards in, is because of the perceived increase in value that is possible. The perceived increase in value is only possible, because people in the hobby fetishize gambling, and PSA+BGS offers another layer to that after opening boxes.

There are also always allegations of things like preferential treatment for big spenders, etc.

Even if someone could prove to have an objective and fair AI grading service where the criteria is upfront and easily understood, to the point that pre-grading becomes more of a skilled trade rather than grading being something you gamble on, I don't think the hobby would accept it. PSA has overtaken BGS for modern stuff in hockey over the last few years partly because non-hockey collectors have entered the market and PSA was the top company for them, but also because people would rather have more 10s delivered on modern stuff, than have a system where 10s are difficult to acquire. So if an objective system didn't produce 10s as often as PSA, people would not accept it.

(I am aware that there are some newer services that claim to have objective AI grading.)
 
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frightenedinmatenum2

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Sep 30, 2023
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Watch some youtube videos of people doing hockey card box breaks. They'll drop hundreds / thousands of dollars and be excited when they get a third of the value back in cards. It's completely a waste of money right out the gate unless you can supplement in another way like streaming the video. And that's not even factoring in that you need to move it fairly quickly, which takes time and effort. I'd recommend just buying want you want from a seller. It's cheaper and you actually get what you want rather than some extremely low chance of getting it. Nearly all of the cards you get are going to be worthless in a decade, so I would not say it's a good investment.

If I told you my hobby was scratch tickets, you would either laugh at me or be concerned for me.

That is what I hear when people say they drop four or five figures breaking boxes. It's the exact same thing. It wouldn't surprise me if scratch tickets had better returns than most hobby boxes. Especially considering the fact that you get the money up front for scratch tickets, but if I pull a $20 card, I have to put in the leg work to sell it to "make my money back".

With that said, if a stranger on the internet enjoys gambling it isn't my place to impose my ethics on them and say they should not gamble. If the question is, I enjoy gambling, I know I will lose 50-80 percent of what I spend, but I think it's worth it because I enjoy getting a big pull every once in a while, which boxes will be the most fun? Sure, tell them to go out and buy a case of The Cup.

But the question is usually "I'm interested in collecting hockey cards, which boxes should I buy to build a collection?". When it's the former like that, it's important to let them know the actual reality of breaking boxes, and that you can usually buy what you will receive in an average box for 75 percent less through buying the singles. That is a better way to build a collection.

Keep in mind, I might buy a pack every few months for fun. Or even grab a hobby box. I put $10 into the Sens 50/50 once or twice a year. So I am not an anti-gambling absolutist.
 

frightenedinmatenum2

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Sep 30, 2023
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Gold 1/1 Hutson is on eBay.

Currently at 16k with 9 days left.

While he will very clearly be a superstar, selling now is probably a safer bet since his value is tied to the team he plays on. Look at Kotkaniemi's prices before and after the offer sheet.

What do you guys think about UD doing all these YG parallels?

Hockey collecting has changed a lot in the last 5 years. The market used to be very different from football and basketball. Stuff like PMGs were available all over COMC for pennies on the dollar because nobody cared about them or collected them. I have a few that I bought for a few dollars each because I thought they looked cool, that I later sold during COVID for $100+. (Veteran players, not up in value based on a rookie breaking out.)

It's very obvious that stuff like these 1/1s and rookie reissues create short term excitement in breaking boxes, but I wonder if it will burn people out in the long term. YGs were a very nice established point for people to collect because they were in demand, it weren't unattainable. With that said, it's possible that I'm stuck in the past and UD is appropriately responding to the changes in their market.

It's crazy how much has changed about the average hockey collectors. Even PSA seemingly becoming the #1 grading company for modern hockey over Beckett.
 

TheYardMachine

Nice guy. Tries hard. Loves the game.
Sponsor
Jan 5, 2018
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Gold 1/1 Hutson is on eBay.

Currently at 16k with 9 days left.

While he will very clearly be a superstar, selling now is probably a safer bet since his value is tied to the team he plays on. Look at Kotkaniemi's prices before and after the offer sheet.

What do you guys think about UD doing all these YG parallels?

Hockey collecting has changed a lot in the last 5 years. The market used to be very different from football and basketball. Stuff like PMGs were available all over COMC for pennies on the dollar because nobody cared about them or collected them. I have a few that I bought for a few dollars each because I thought they looked cool, that I later sold during COVID for $100+. (Veteran players, not up in value based on a rookie breaking out.)

It's very obvious that stuff like these 1/1s and rookie reissues create short term excitement in breaking boxes, but I wonder if it will burn people out in the long term. YGs were a very nice established point for people to collect because they were in demand, it weren't unattainable. With that said, it's possible that I'm stuck in the past and UD is appropriately responding to the changes in their market.

It's crazy how much has changed about the average hockey collectors. Even PSA seemingly becoming the #1 grading company for modern hockey over Beckett.
PSA is definitely king right now for hockey. Almost no cards are being sent to BGS!

The grand majority of cards after 2020-21 are being sent to PSA
 

frightenedinmatenum2

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Sep 30, 2023
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PSA is definitely king right now for hockey. Almost no cards are being sent to BGS!

The grand majority of cards after 2020-21 are being sent to PSA

The big change happened during the pandemic when there was a renewed interest in gambling/speculating on sports cards.

I suspect it's because a lot of collectors or influencers from other sports where PSA was the top choice got into hockey at the same time as a large amount of new hockey collectors.

Like I said in my post, the other thing that changed was interest in parallels. Hockey previously was very heavy on the prominence of a set. Young Guns, FWA, etc. Football and basketball geared more to aesthetics and shiny cards.

So what I wonder is if these changes are going to burn out and alienate the core fan base in the long run, with a lot of these new collectors not sticking around once they realize they aren't getting rich. Or, if this is simply UD having their finger on the pulse of the long-term direction of the hobby.
 
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blankall

Registered User
Jul 4, 2007
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The big change happened during the pandemic when there was a renewed interest in gambling/speculating on sports cards.

I suspect it's because a lot of collectors or influencers from other sports where PSA was the top choice got into hockey at the same time as a large amount of new hockey collectors.

Like I said in my post, the other thing that changed was interest in parallels. Hockey previously was very heavy on the prominence of a set. Young Guns, FWA, etc. Football and basketball geared more to aesthetics and shiny cards.

So what I wonder is if these changes are going to burn out and alienate the core fan base in the long run, with a lot of these new collectors not sticking around once they realize they aren't getting rich. Or, if this is simply UD having their finger on the pulse of the long-term direction of the hobby.

They are definitely making more parallels. Can't say those parallels are going up in value though. A major issue with hockey is that so few players have high value cards. In basketball/football all sorts of guys go for big money. Any HoF will have big value. Unless it's Gretzky, Crosby, Lemieux, Ovy, etc... or an ultra hot prospect like Bedard, the value just isn't there in hockey.

For example, you can guy a PSA 9 Mike Bossy Rookie for $400 CAD.
 

Rorschach

Who the f*** is Trevor Moore?
Oct 9, 2006
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The big change happened during the pandemic when there was a renewed interest in gambling/speculating on sports cards.

I suspect it's because a lot of collectors or influencers from other sports where PSA was the top choice got into hockey at the same time as a large amount of new hockey collectors.

Like I said in my post, the other thing that changed was interest in parallels. Hockey previously was very heavy on the prominence of a set. Young Guns, FWA, etc. Football and basketball geared more to aesthetics and shiny cards.

So what I wonder is if these changes are going to burn out and alienate the core fan base in the long run, with a lot of these new collectors not sticking around once they realize they aren't getting rich. Or, if this is simply UD having their finger on the pulse of the long-term direction of the hobby.

I agree with this. Basically during he pandemic, not only were people buying more sports cards, a lot of people went back to collect hockey from the glory years of 1990 to 1995-ish when people routinely collecting four-sport because cards were still like a buck a pack for high end stuff like Upper Deck. At the same time, there was a bunch of people who withdrew money from Bitcoin and instead bought collectibles from when they were kids as well so collectibles went crazy. Since PSA was king in baseball and basketball, these people went with what they knew and collected PSA in hockey using their baseball card collecting knowledge.

In baseball, all of the major manufacturers saw how well pre-rookie cards of the mid 80s Topps Traded/Fleer Update/Fleer Star Stickers making cards of rookie players before they got their main rookie year release was huge:
1984 Fleer Update with Gooden then Clemens and then finally Puckett -
Was insanely hot with those cards going from a 20 dollar set to triple digits for those guys....

1982 Topps Traded Cal Ripken and 1983 Topps Traded Darryl Strawberry -
After the 1984 Fleer Update went crazy in post 1985, when these players' main releases hit and got hot, people went back and looked at past releases and these two cards went crazy too

1985 Topps-Team USA Mark McGwire, various 1986 Fleer Update/1986 Topps Traded/1986 Donruss The Rookies, 1986 Fleer Update Jose Canseco/1986 Donruss-Rated Rookie Jose Canseco, 1986 Fleer Star Stickers Will Clark -
In 1987-1989, there was huge interest in the 1987 rookie class and many of these players such as Canseco, Bo Jackson, Barry Bonds, etc...so naturally they would go back and check for those players' pre-1987 cards

After this, many of the main sets had subsets within dedicated to pre-rookie cards such as Donruss Rated Rookies, Fleer Prospects (the two prospects on the same card, often of the same team), Topps and Score draft picks (such as 1990 Frank Thomas cards and 1991 Topps Chipper Jones) plus the mini sets you could buy, mentioned above, The Rookies, Update and Traded.

This carried on to hockey as the existing Topps/O Pee Chee was joined by Upper Deck, Pro Set, Score, etc.
Starting in 90-91 sets, which wound up being insanely loaded
OPC had the famous Central Red Army inserts (including the famous Sergei Federov)
OPC also had the various Russia league players (best card I think was Arturs Irbe)
UD and Score had first round draft picks (Jaromir Jagr being the best card)
Pro Set had the top two draft picks...weird since it was the deepest draft in a long time
UD also had some early cards of players like Mats Sundin #1 OA, not yet in the NHL, Score also followed suit but
Score had the special Eric Lindros
UD Hi numbers had Young Guns including the pre-rookie of Pavel Bure also Team Canada WJC Scott Niedermayer, Felix Potvin, Pat Falloon, etc.
1991-92 this continued with Upper Deck with Canada Cup with pre-rookie cards of Nicklas Lidstrom, Teemu Selanne, Slava Kozlov, and many other players etc. and the WJC cards including the Czech version with Paul Kariya

Then later both baseball and hockey had complaints that kids were going with their moms to get the hot player's rookie card, buying that player's card and then finding out later the real "rookie card" was printed two years earlier...for example Felix Potvin (1990-91 UD Hi Numbers WJC Team Canada Felix Potvin) and 1990-91 Score 1st Round Draft Pick Martin Brodeur, both players started playing and doing NHL things in 1992-93 seasons. So eventually in baseball they made the RC symbol to put on cards while in hockey they only allowed players with enough NHL games to appear in NHL releases.

Minor league cards in hockey became rather inferior cards while in baseball, these cards continued to be important via Topps' Bowman brand. So people in the 90s who continue to collect cards of multiple sports but eventually moved on to keep collecting baseball since collecting cards became so expensive, people could only focus on one sport, got used to both cherishing the Bowman 1st Card and the Topps RC card developed the two-rookie card idea while hockey collectors eventually focused on UD Young Guns one-true-rookie mindsets. For example, the 2005-06 Upper Deck S1 Sidney Crosby in hockey vs. the 2009 Bowman Rookie Auto Mike Trout and 2011 Topps Update Mike Trout.

So when those collectors came back to key hockey cards they collected not only HOF and multi-Cup winner Scott Niedermayer's 1990-91 UD HI Numbers WJC Team Canada card, in PSA 10, they also looked for all of Scott Niedermayer's 91-92 NHL releases in his actual New Jersey Devils uniform as well in PSA 10...despite the fact that in 1992, Scott Niedermayer's Team Canada card was like $5, pretty good card, while his 91-92 releases were almost commons outside of New Jersey, no matter the condition.
 
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Dr Pepper

Registered User
Dec 9, 2005
71,404
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Sunny Etobicoke
New to the hobby. Brand new. Slowly trying to learn about everything and I am starting to wonder if "Breaking Culture" has truly affected not only the price of boxes, but also hurting collectors? I am trying to be smart and remind myself that I do not want to join this hobby to "make money" but at the same time, I don't want to feel like I am throwing my money COMPLETELY away and it would nice to feel somewhat assured that there is decent value in some boxes.

Many have said hockey cards haven't quite suffered as much as other sports and Pokemon, but before I go out and buy a couple hobby boxes of Series One, I paused and started to wonder if a long-time collector has noticed a major shift in the hobby, and if it is worth it nowadays to be one of those nostalgic consumers who walks into a shop, buys a box or two and rips wax on their own.

Obviously it is almost never economical to open a box yourself, but is it at the point where it is borderline throwing away hundreds of dollars with little potential in terms of value? I do not mind just building a personal collection, purely for fun, but it is still something in the back of my mind. What would you recommend for a new collector in the hobby who wants a balance of fun and value? Do you recommend it at all?

You said it yourself, you're not in it to make a profit. If obtaining the cards of your favourite team or players, whoever they may be, is value enough, then it's worth it and not a waste of money IMO.
 
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frightenedinmatenum2

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Sep 30, 2023
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I don't follow hockey cards as much anymore, will any of these guys be worth triple digits for their based YG?

Hutson, because of the Canadiens tax. If the guy was a Columbus Blue Jacket, his card would be $5-$10.

If he was on Ottawa or another team, he's a $20-$30 card, maybe. Sanderson is probably a close comparable in terms of hype within the fanbase, and performance as a rookie. I think his card maybe peaked at $20 as a rookie. It's $10 now.
 

CutOnDime97

Too Showman
Mar 29, 2008
15,840
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I don't follow hockey cards as much anymore, will any of these guys be worth triple digits for their based YG?
Hutson is going for around $100 USD at the moment. Can't imagine that lasts long though.

Hutson and Gauthier 1/1 gold outbursts are at auction on eBay. Will be very interesting to see where these land and if they are paid for


 
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frightenedinmatenum2

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You said it yourself, you're not in it to make a profit. If obtaining the cards of your favourite team or players, whoever they may be, is value enough, then it's worth it and not a waste of money IMO.

People place value on aesthetic items that don't have any useful purpose other than being looked at.

If someone wants to collect because they have an attachment to the hobby or aesthetic of hockey cards, it isn't really a waste of money. Hockey cards are ultimately, extremely frugal to collect if you don't buy boxes and if you have a distinct idea of who or what you want to collect. You can collect singles on any budget.

My advice would be, don't buy ANYTHING right away. Or set a very restrictive budget. A common thing people do when they get excited about a new hobby, is they buy way too much in the honeymoon phase of the hobby. This is stuff that they really don't care for 6 months down the line when they really figure out what part of that hobby intrigues them the most.

My other piece of advice would be to invest in a decent shelf or area where you can display your cards and make them nice to look at. I don't mean display your entire collection at once. But even something like a photo ledge from Ikea and a handful of one touches can look tidy and organized. If the far is "wasting money", then give the cards you collect purpose. If it gets to the point where you don't get a thrill from looking at them, showing them to guests, and changing out the cards that you display that week, then stop collecting.
 
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CutOnDime97

Too Showman
Mar 29, 2008
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Have been watching this one for a bit. Sent in an offer this morning and it got accepted.

Screenshot_20241023_095402_eBay.jpg
 

Rorschach

Who the f*** is Trevor Moore?
Oct 9, 2006
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Have been watching this one for a bit. Sent in an offer this morning and it got accepted.

View attachment 920577
I used to have this from a pack and the SP Authentic one...both had Richard's shaky handwriting. He passed away shortly afterward. I respected him a lot trying to sign a lot of autos before he passed so that the money could go to his family before he passed.

Grats! I feel all-time great retro autos and memorabilia is super-underrated. Not only are these players obviously great, unlike young players of today who haven't even made the HHOF, young player cards go for way too much in proportion to these greats. This is especially true of the jerseys for jersey cards from before UD invented the Game Jersey card and the game-used memorabilia for trading cards culture existed.
 

tmlms13

Registered User
Apr 11, 2012
6,931
4,671
Waterloo, Ontario
Anyone here opening SPA? Hit anything good?

Watching some of the breaks on youtube they are getting like $50 of cards in a $500 box. I can't believe how bad this is. They're like hyping up some non-auto non-number insert like it was a box hit. Only good thing I've seen is no redemptions.

Breakers have ruined the entire hobby. Need to start a movement to boycott them all.

Wish there was a way to ensure a random Joe Blow to pull Bedard FWA 98/999, puts it on a shelf and never tells a sole about it.

/UD, Breaker Rant
 

tmlms13

Registered User
Apr 11, 2012
6,931
4,671
Waterloo, Ontario
My other piece of advice would be to invest in a decent shelf or area where you can display your cards and make them nice to look at. I don't mean display your entire collection at once. But even something like a photo ledge from Ikea and a handful of one touches can look tidy and organized. If the far is "wasting money", then give the cards you collect purpose. If it gets to the point where you don't get a thrill from looking at them, showing them to guests, and changing out the cards that you display that week, then stop collecting.

That's good advice.

I'd also say have some kind of "mission" that is probably unique and hard to do so it keeps you involved. I have two

Get Graded Morgan Reilly Young Guns, All 10 graded. I currently have 3,6,7,8,9,10

TSN Personalities under $10. ODog, Noodles, Carlo, Frankie, Struddy, MJ, Ray, Willson.... and of course Bryan Hayes who does have a 2000-01 Barrie Colts Card but is really hard to find. (will give a finders fee if you have one) I got a Noodles jersey card for 25 cents and free shipping on ebay lol. The Luke Willson card had a story about him serving coffee at a Starbucks for a charity even
 

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