Post-Game Talk: HNIC - Leafs WIN the home opener!!!

[Guided by Veseys]

Dubas was okay at trades (but completely f***ed the Kadri one) and was good at a few bargain signings but he doesn’t know how to build a winner. Never won the Presidents Trophy let alone even their own division nor more than a single playoff round where Tampa honestly looked the better team.

 

[Dekes For Days]

That is a wild take. So he gets the credit for building a good regular season....but playoff failures aren't on him?

The only wild take is evaluating GMs strictly by the contextless outcomes of playoff series. His job was assembling the team, and he consistently built one of the best teams in the league through difficult situations. You can choose to view things through only one black and white dimension, but the rest of the hockey world doesn't. That's why Shanahan wanted to re-sign him. That's why he was immediately promoted. That's why he was given a raise. That's why he was added to Hockey Canada.

Some people refuse to accept that, and lash out at anybody who recognizes what we had.

 

[Rare Jewel]

Cap space, internal help, etc.

I'm far from a Treliving guy, but the dude is scraping pennies to sign Max Pacioretty. I don't think the cap space situation is much different.

Anyway, that's what Shanny and Kyle signed up for when they signed "the boys." They had Kadri and $7m in space to allocate to the rest of the team; Marleau's contract didn't help, granted, but even beyond that, he held onto Johnsson and Kap longer than they should've, which furthered the glut upfront.

Anyway, it's w/e now.

 

[All Mod Cons]

Dubas was okay at trades (but completely f***ed the Kadri one) and was good at a few bargain signings but he doesn’t know how to build a winner. Never won the Presidents Trophy let alone even their own division nor more than a single playoff round where Tampa honestly looked the better team.

I think trades were actually his weakest attribute. Very few of them actually helped us. And most were downright awful.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I'm far from a Treliving guy, but the dude is scraping pennies to sign Max Pacioretty. I don't think the cap space situation is much different.

Treliving has a rapidly rising cap and has had a decent amount of cap space each offseason. That's a much different situation.
We're tight on cap because Treliving spent it all, and didn't address players that should have been moved.
Pacioretty shouldn't have cost more than league minimum or close to it anyway.

 

[Guided by Veseys]

I think trades were actually his weakest attribute. Very few of them actually helped us. And most were downright awful.

Here they are. History of hockey trades by general manager Kyle Dubas - NHL Trade Tracker

There a few okay ones but he threw away draft picks willy nilly.

That Jared McCann trade was probably the best of the bunch lol.

 

[HamiltonNHL]

Here they are. History of hockey trades by general manager Kyle Dubas - NHL Trade Tracker

Cool !

 

[genk]

I really don’t understand all the Liljegrin hate. He wasn’t great in the playoffs, but he’s a very capable top 4 in the regular season. He unquestionably should not be sitting.

 

[Dekes For Days]

I really don’t understand all the Liljegrin hate. He wasn’t great in the playoffs, but he’s a very capable top 4 in the regular season. He unquestionably should not be sitting.

I think most people want to see him get in games; even if just to not tank his value. It's weird that a GM and their new coach would have such a disconnect on a player.
Hopefully soon...

 

[fahad203]

I think most people want to see him get in games; even if just to not tank his value. It's weird that a GM and their new coach would have such a disconnect on a player.
Hopefully soon...

I don't think it's even that. I think the new coach would want to give Timmins a propert opportunity to see what he can bring to the table. We all know who Lilly is, Tims we stil don't

At some point it will be Lilly back and we may waive/bench Timmins.

Lilly does habit of fumbling the puck in worse possible situations

 

[Rare Jewel]

Treliving has a rapidly rising cap and a decent amount of cap space each offseason. That's a much different situation.

There was space for Kyle as well. He didn't always use it the best. See Ritchie and Mrazek.

We're tight on cap because Treliving spent it all, and didn't address players that should have been moved.
Pacioretty shouldn't have cost more than league minimum or close to it anyway.

Again, I'm not one of his biggest fans, and he still has to prove some things to me, namely making decent trades (or trades at all).

But a lot of that space he used was for Nylander, which is, even for you, a worthwhile place to spend the cap space.

Stolarz has been the best Leaf thus far, and OEL is doing a good job (so far) in allaying any of my concerns about him. It's still early, granted.

I don't like the way they're handling Liljegren, but I'm not sure who's being alluded to in terms of who shouldn't have been acquired when saying "he spent it all." Now, if he resigns McCabe to anything over $5m, then IMO, that's not the best use of cap space, but we will see.


But congrats! You've made me seem like a defender of BT, when in reality, I'm kind of frustrated by his lack of moves and overly conservative style to this point.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

The only wild take is evaluating GMs strictly by the contextless outcomes of playoff series. His job was assembling the team, and he consistently built one of the best teams in the league through difficult situations. You can choose to view things through only one black and white dimension, but the rest of the hockey world doesn't. That's why Shanahan wanted to re-sign him. That's why he was immediately promoted. That's why he was given a raise. That's why he was added to Hockey Canada.

Some people refuse to accept that, and lash out at anybody who recognizes what we had.

Hockey is notoriously a massive old boys club. The fact he got a job after doesn't inherently mean he did a good job here lol Brian Burke got a bunch of jobs as Presidents of teams all over the NHL and he was a dog shit GM here. You are starting from an opinion that he was a great GM and then working to find the evidence to back that up. Trying to pass off the playoff results as contextless and acting like all the challenges he faced just fell out of the f***in sky is so ridiculously stupid. Like he built the team that failed to get it done. Just cold hard facts, and if he was short on money to build a better team....well he signed the deals.

 

[conFABulator]

The whole Shanny flip flop and drama and switching streams was chaotic, but Treliving was here by the end of May. There generally isn't much if any offseason that happens before then. He attended the draft; just couldn't be a part of the first pick. Treliving is the one who kept and extended Keefe. And while Shanahan reportedly made a decision on the core for that season, they weren't going to hire a GM that disagreed, and Treliving extended them.

Those weren't really the problematic decisions anyway. Point is, you can't just ignore an entire year of decisions because he wasn't here for a couple weeks in May when the past season is still ongoing and nothing happens anyway.

I don't think an executive can come in on June 1 and make franchise altering decisions and negotiate winning or fair trades within 30 days. NMC for Marner and Tavares kicked in on July 1, 2023 and he still hasn't extended them.

Who's ignoring a whole year? I just said it wasn't a FULL off-season. I think this team is in much stronger position than when Dubas left. Don't you?

Our G is better, our D is better, our F are deeper and probably better, we haven't moved any top prospects or high picks, we have a decent cap structure, a new coaching staff and new captain.

Do you think we were a stronger team then say Dubas left?

 

[Rare Jewel]

Hockey is notoriously a massive old boys club. The fact he got a job after doesn't inherently mean he did a good job here lol Brian Burke got a bunch of jobs as Presidents of teams all over the NHL and he was a dog shit GM here. You are starting from an opinion that he was a great GM and then working to find the evidence to back that up. Trying to pass off the playoff results as contextless and acting like all the challenges he faced just fell out of the f***in sky is so ridiculously stupid. Like he built the team that failed to get it done. Just cold hard facts, and if he was short on money to build a better team....well he signed the deals.

lol, I'm sorry, but "contextless playoff outcomes" is world class copium.

The man just needs to take the "L" on KD.

 

[DarkKnight]

There was space for Kyle as well. He didn't always use it the best. See Ritchie and Mrazek.


Again, I'm not one of his biggest fans, and he still has to prove some things to me, namely making decent trades (or trades at all).

But a lot of that space he used was for Nylander, which is, even for you, a worthwhile place to spend the cap space.

Stolarz has been the best Leaf thus far, and OEL is doing a good job (so far) in allaying any of my concerns about him. It's still early, granted.

I don't like the way they're handling Liljegren, but I'm not sure who's being alluded to in terms of who shouldn't have been acquired when saying "he spent it all." Now, if he resigns McCabe to anything over $5m, then IMO, that's not the best use of cap space, but we will see.


But congrats! You've made me seem like a defender of BT, when in reality, I'm kind of frustrated by his lack of moves and overly conservative style to this point.

Dubas blew all his space over paying the stars. All RFA's, all no leverage, gave huge signing bonuses, max money, blew the entire internal cap structure. Voluntarily too. It's just boring revisionism.

 

[Maple Leaf]

IF we can lock in the system I think there is a chance

 

[Dekes For Days]

I don't think it's even that. I think the new coach would want to give Timmins a propert opportunity to see what he can bring to the table. We all know who Lilly is, Tims we stil don't
At some point it will be Lilly back and we may waive/bench Timmins.
Lilly does habit of fumbling the puck in worse possible situations

I don't necessarily mind giving Timmins a run. I wish we had used him more last year.
But a GM thinking Liljegren is worth 3m, and his new coach thinking he is a healthy scratch is an issue.

There was space for Kyle as well.

Not nearly as much. A rapidly rising cap makes a world of difference.

But a lot of that space he used was for Nylander, which is, even for you, a worthwhile place to spend the cap space.

I don't mind him using cap space on Matthews and Nylander; though he paid Nylander too much, and kind of bungled the process.
There's quite a bit more that he spent money on though.

Hockey is notoriously a massive old boys club. The fact he got a job after doesn't inherently mean he did a good job here lol Brian Burke got a bunch of jobs as Presidents of teams all over the NHL and he was a dog shit GM here. You are starting from an opinion that he was a great GM and then working to find the evidence to back that up.

Hockey may be an old boys club, but he wasn't an old boy, so it's even more impressive if anything. Getting a job after doesn't inherently mean he did a good job, but getting offered an extension by the Leafs, and then being immediately hired, promoted, and given a raise by another team and being brought in to international hockey doesn't scream the hockey world thinking he's horrible, or that they only consider contextless playoff outcomes when evaluating GMs.

Who's ignoring a whole year? I just said it wasn't a FULL off-season. I think this team is in much stronger position than when Dubas left. Don't you?

You seemed to be dismissing the moves over the first year, and evaluating only off of this offseason. No, I don't think this team is in a stronger position. I wish it was.

 

[Rare Jewel]

Not nearly as much. A rapidly rising cap makes a world of difference.

Every other team had to deal with a stagnate cap, and having their plan predicated on that is also an issue.

I'm not sure what players he didn't get because of it aside from Hegal, but the issue there was Knies going the way,

I don't mind him using cap space on Matthews and Nylander; though he paid Nylander too much, and kind of bungled the process.
There's quite a bit more that he spent money on though.

Like?

 

[conFABulator]

You seemed to be dismissing the moves over the first year, and evaluating only off of this offseason. No, I don't think this team is in a stronger position. I wish it was.

Really? Because I think he did OK under the circumstances LAST year and built on them this year.

I like that we extended Matthews and Nylander

I like that we have not done so with either of Tavares or Marner yet.

I like that we didn't give multiple years to Samsonov.

I liked the Domi and Bertuzzi signings.

I like that we extended Keefe AND fired him.and got our of the obligation.

I like Benoit (for what he is)

I like Cowan and Danford and that we didn't move any prospects or valuable picks.

I like Dewar (for what he is)

I like Reaves and how the contract was structured to get out from under at any time.

I like that Klingberg was only one year and how quickly we Robidas-ed him.

I like that we have a new captain and how it was handled.

I am not even a big Treliving fan but I think we are in better shape now. Why is this team not in a stronger position now than when Dubas left, IYO?

 

[Jmo89]

Dubas has 6 "contextless playoff outcomes" that end in failure and he gets excuse after excuse.

Tre gets dropped into an offseason with a handful of UFAs, multiple holes, 2 of stars needing new contracts, a coach the whole fanbase wants gone, etc. And navigates the team to the same outcome that Dubas had 5 of 6 years. Yeesh, talk about a lack of context.

I don't even like Tre but it's funny how context only matters when a certain poster wants it to. I wonder if "contextless playoff outcomes" is the new "raw point totals" that we will hear that particular poster drum on about all year.

I can only imagine the amount of Dubas posters taped to the wall. Probably with some dramatic lettering that says, "Trust the process!" and Dubas punching his fist beside Spezza.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

I don't necessarily mind giving Timmins a run. I wish we had used him more last year.
But a GM thinking Liljegren is worth 3m, and his new coach thinking he is a healthy scratch is an issue.

Not nearly as much. A rapidly rising cap makes a world of difference.

I don't mind him using cap space on Matthews and Nylander; though he paid Nylander too much, and kind of bungled the process.
There's quite a bit more that he spent money on though.

Hockey may be an old boys club, but he wasn't an old boy, so it's even more impressive if anything. Getting a job after doesn't inherently mean he did a good job, but getting offered an extension by the Leafs, and then being immediately hired, promoted, and given a raise by another team and being brought in to international hockey doesn't scream the hockey world thinking he's horrible, or that they only consider contextless playoff outcomes when evaluating GMs.

You seemed to be dismissing the moves over the first year, and evaluating only off of this offseason. No, I don't think this team is in a stronger position. I wish it was.

He absolutely is part of the old boys club. I just don't understand how you can just completely clear off 6 years of playoff failures from Dubas's record with a bunch of manufactured BS like he was the only GM in hockey that had to deal with Covid....and then say Treliving sucks after one year lol. You have a pre formed bias here and consistently contradict yourself in the argument by saying stuff doesn't matter with Dubas and then turning around and critisizing Tree for pretty much the exact same thing.

 

[keonsbitterness]

Dubas has 6 "contextless playoff outcomes" that end in failure and he gets excuse after excuse.

Tre gets dropped into an offseason with a handful of UFAs, multiple holes, 2 of stars needing new contracts, a coach the whole fanbase wants gone, etc. And navigates the team to the same outcome that Dubas had 5 of 6 years. Yeesh, talk about a lack of context.

I don't even like Tre but it's funny how context only matters when a certain poster wants it to. I wonder if "contextless playoff outcomes" is the new "raw point totals" that we will hear that particular poster drum on about all year.

I can only imagine the amount of Dubas posters taped to the wall. Probably with some dramatic lettering that says, "Trust the process!" and Dubas punching his fist beside Spezza.

Tre also got dropped into a situation where Shanahan promised his stars they wouldn't be traded.

 

[notDatsyuk]

The people that left got immediate promotions and/or raises. Leafs got chaos in a critical moment, a worse GM, and a worse team because of it. And while there is certainly an argument that it was time for a fresh voice behind the bench, there's really nothing to suggest that Berube is a "much better coach".

Seriously, dekes, since your entire purpose of coming on the Leafs board seems to be to unsuccessfully try to defend Dubas and anything he did, I really don't see why you bother.

You don't seem to have any interest in the team or the players, and it looks like the only time you get involved in a conversation is to defend Dubas.

It's at the point where it's not even unintentionally funny, but pathetic.

Why don't you go over to the Pittsburgh board - he probably needs your help over there more than here

 

[Dekes For Days]

Every other team had to deal with a stagnate cap

That doesn't change the difficulty of maneuvering through it. And it impacted teams differently.

Like?

Tanev, Domi, OEL, Liljegren, Kampf, Reaves, McMann, Dewar, Pacioeretty, Hakanpaa, Benoit, Stolarz.

I like that we extended Matthews and Nylander
I like that we have not done so with either of Tavares or Marner yet.
I like that we didn't give multiple years to Samsonov.
I liked the Domi and Bertuzzi signings.
I like that we extended Keefe AND fired him.and got our of the obligation.
I like Benoit (for what he is)
I like Cowan and Danford and that we didn't move any prospects or valuable picks.
I like Dewar (for what he is)
I like Reaves and how the contract was structured to get out from under at any time.
I like that Klingberg was only one year and how quickly we Robidas-ed him.
I like that we have a new captain and how it was handled.
I am not even a big Treliving fan but I think we are in better shape now. Why is this team not in a stronger position now than when Dubas left, IYO?

I'm not going to debate every single transaction in a PGT, but I don't find anything particularly praiseworthy about any of this other than the basic fact that Matthews was extended and the basic fact that Nylander was extended (aside from how it was handled). The likes of Klingberg, Reaves, Bertuzzi, etc. were especially horrible, as is not yet re-signing Marner. In 2022-2023, we were one of the best teams in the league. Strong offensively and defensively, and coming off a good goaltending season. Had no long-term cap concerns, a cap about to skyrocket, and prospects ready to graduate. I don't really see how we're in a stronger position now.

He absolutely is part of the old boys club. I just don't understand how you can just completely clear off 6 years of playoff failures from Dubas's record with a bunch of manufactured BS like he was the only GM in hockey that had to deal with Covid....and then say Treliving sucks after one year lol. You have a pre formed bias here and consistently contradict yourself in the argument by saying stuff doesn't matter with Dubas and then turning around and critisizing Tree for pretty much the exact same thing.

Gee, people can't make up their mind. Some pretend that he's some kid trying to invade and change hockey, and others claim that he's part of the old boys club. You can't even remember how many years he was here. I just don't understand how you can completely ignore 5 years of decisions and results to look exclusively at only playoff outcomes that represented a difference of about one goal. I have no pre-formed bias, or contradictions. What exactly do you think has been contradictory? Contradictory would be defending Treliving despite him failing even more at the one solitary thing you decide to look at and criticized others for.

 

[TheBeastCoast]

That doesn't change the difficulty of maneuvering through it. And it impacted teams differently.

Tanev, Domi, OEL, Liljegren, Kampf, Reaves, McMann, Dewar, Pacioeretty, Hakanpaa, Benoit, Stolarz.

I'm not going to debate every single transaction in a PGT, but I don't find anything particularly praiseworthy about any of this other than the basic fact that Matthews was extended and the basic fact that Nylander was extended (aside from how it was handled). The likes of Klingberg, Reaves, Bertuzzi, etc. were especially horrible, as is not yet re-signing Marner. In 2022-2023, we were one of the best teams in the league. Strong offensively and defensively, and coming off a good goaltending season. Had no long-term cap concerns, a cap about to skyrocket, and prospects ready to graduate. I don't really see how we're in a stronger position now.

Gee, people can't make up their mind. Some pretend that he's some kid trying to invade and change hockey, and others claim that he's part of the old boys club. You can't even remember how many years he was here. I just don't understand how you can completely ignore 5 years of decisions and results to look exclusively at only playoff outcomes that represented a difference of about one goal. I have no pre-formed bias, or contradictions. What exactly do you think has been contradictory? Contradictory would be defending Treliving despite him failing even more at the one solitary thing you decide to look at and criticized others for.

Not a single part of what I am doing here is defending Treliving lol what his legacy here is to be determined in the coming years. Also the Covid years effected us more because Dubas f***ed up the negotiations of the core players coming off ELC....something even he has admitted he bungled. You can't just say he had a flat cap so oh well nothing he could have done differently. He made plenty of his own mistakes that contributed to us failing in the playoffs. To say the GM bears no responsibility for a teams results come playoff time is so utterly ridiculous. If those teams Dubas blessed us with had of won back then would he have gotten credit for it? Or does he just not get blame when it goes badly? Your tangent about the old boys club thing can miss me has nothing to do with me or anything I have said/thought.