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U18: Hlinka Gretzky Cup

Czechboy said:
It is not a complaint but the tourney format is very unforgiving.

Eg. Swiss go 2 and 1 and may not advance.

If Czechs lose.. they will go 2 and 1 and not advance.

If Swedes win by less than 5 they will be 2 and 1 and not advance.

You would think going 2 and 1 would be certain advancement.

Finn's beat Canada with 9 goals and still aren't certain to move on.

Tough format!
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Yup.

Format makes little sense. Add a day and a quarterfinal match. Then give the Top Pool teams a bye.
 
Czechboy said:
I keep reading he is the next great Canadian goalie... Only seen him twice and both times he got torched. I know nothing about him and maybe he is the next great hope but my very limited viewings have not been encouraging. I think any Canadian goalie labelled that way is in trouble
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Too early to tell with a goalie but I'd say I have been more impressed with Love Haremstein.
 
kyle44 said:
I have no idea what you're saying in the first sentence so I'm not sure how to respond to it. I've used my eyes plenty. I've followed these Canadian kids to the extent possible since their Bantam year and I have never once thought Catton was a better player. I do not agree whatsoever that Catton has more electric qualities and I have no idea what a value-based weakness is.

Show me one syllable where I criticize Catton's resume. He's an excellent player in his own right and fully deserving of a high selection this year; I'm simply saying that Celebrini has always been better, even dating back to Shattuck when he made U-18 prep over Catton. You keep referencing the U-17 tournament, where he had a bad virus and could hardly play, as proof that his resume isn't bulletproof. It's a flawed argument.

The Canadian coaching staff didn't just hand Celebrini a top role at the U-18 over Catton. He earned it with his play and clearly justified it throughout the tournament. He was also the only 2006 born in Canada shortlisted for the U-20 team this year over Catton and others. He can't match Catton's play at the Hlinka because he's not there, and he wouldn't be there even without the injury because he'd be attending Canada's U-20 summer camp (if they were physically meeting this year). It's almost like saying Connelly might be just as good as Eiserman because he's tearing up the Hlinka.
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You referred to Catton's resume by saying this. If not resume (stats, points, accolades), what is paper supposed to refer to?
kyle44 said:
I just don't see how, on paper or in evaluating the skillsets of Celebrini and Catton (at this point in time), you could make an argument for Catton over Celebrini.
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And maybe part of the problem is that you are caught up on the idea that Celebrini has "always been better." Players progress at different rates.

I didn't say that Celebrini didn't earn his spot at the WJC18. I said Catton wasn't bad at the WJC18. Catton played his role decently. How he would've done if he was first line and PP1, we don't know. The point with this I've been making is that comparing players who are given very different roles is pretty difficult. It's best to judge them relative to the role they got.

FWIW, I always see it brought up that Celebrini led the USHL in points and all that as some unimpeachable accolade, but I think watching some of his Steel games the conclusion would be a little different. He was very good, but there were a few too many games I thought he was outplayed by his line-mate Perron (who was a third rounder). I wouldn't exactly suggest he was dominant. It's very impressive to be the best player on the best team, but it also does tend to inflate your stats (and play) when you have such a good supporting cast. So I think this talking point isn't as impressive as it sounds, although I'm not saying he wasn't very good in his U-17 year.

I think there are more variables than you are willing to acknowledge. You act like it's been decided since Bantam. If it was that simple, the draft should've be done then. Celebrini was physically developed back then (so was Eiserman). Catton wasn't.

I think that when you consider it on a value-based system, Catton is the best. If you can't figure out what that means, I think that you have to evaluate players for the draft based on their value. Being a center is more valuable than a winger, being a defenseman is more valuable than being a winger, being undersized loses you value, being a weak skater loses you value. It's all based on building the ideal (what usually ends up as a generational) prospect (Crosby, McDavid). Obviously no one ends up being perfect, but I think when you consider different attributes, comparing Catton to Eiserman, Eiserman should have to be that much better because he plays the less valuable position. Eiserman also has some defensive deficits. Celebrini compared to Catton, I personally think Celebrini lacks the top-end offensive tools. He's very good, but I'd say his offensive profile is more Nico Hischier (with more shooting, less passing) than one of the better 1OA centers of recent times.

We'll have to see though how the next season goes. That's what I'd view it as for now. A lot can and likely will change for many players as the season goes on.
 
Weirdest holding call I've ever seen.lpl.

It was the right call but I've never seen that.
 
WeThreeKings said:
Catton has been outstanding in this tournament, I think the right take right now is to have him the 4th forward behind Eiserman/Celebrini/Demidov in whatever order. He's just outside of it for me but if he remains consistent off of this tournament into his WHL year, then I think there's a path ahead of some of those guys, if not all of them.

The difference being I think we'd be able to point to Demidov's overall offensive game as a more tantalizing proposition for a team drafting high and then you have Eiserman's goal scoring toolkit. Catton might lack that stand-out tool those guys have but the totality of what he's brought so far has been awesome. Clutch, too.

But the way that he is showing out this tournament, I definitely think he could push for the 1 spot.. I also think Sam Dickinson and a number of other defenseman could, as well.

I don't think Celebrini has #1 on lock by any stretch of the imagination.
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16 pts for Celebrini at U18 (injured).
4 pts for Catton

I consider Celebrini graduated from U18, meaning he's 1 whole year ahead of Demidov and Catton. I think this is representative of the gap as it exists.

The only way Celebrini loses #1 is that shoulder injury plays a big role in his season.
 
ORRFForever said:
5-0 sends it to another tie breaker.

6-0 and Sweden is in, Czechia out.
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Second tie-breaker is goals for and the US would have more goals for (only in games including the three tied teams) if the game ends with Sweden having scored 5
 
2 missed penalties on the Czechs.

They got called on the third one...

We are lucky we didn't called on first two... Need discipline here. Stupid!
 
MeHateHe said:
Second tie-breaker is goals for and the US would have more goals for (only in games including the three tied teams) if the game ends with Sweden having scored 5
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Thanks.

Another poster (maybe it was you?) said they'd need a high scoring game (by both teams) that ends with Sweden winning by 5 for the U.S to be eliminated.
 
SOLR said:
16 pts for Celebrini at U18 (injured).
4 pts for Catton

I consider Celebrini graduated from U18, meaning he's 1 whole year ahead of Demidov and Catton. I think this is representative of the gap as it exists.

The only way Celebrini loses #1 is that shoulder injury plays a big role in his season.
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They played different roles at the U18.

And you've set up a proposition for Celebrini where you can't be wrong. If he ends up being 1OA, it was always a sure-thing. He was that much better than everyone else, even though most people view 1OA as up for debate. If he doesn't earn 1OA, it was because of an injury that we don't even know will impact him very much.
 
Sweden up 4-0 after a stupid penalty. This concept of shooting right away is a great idea.lol
 
Pavel Buchnevich said:
They played different roles at the U18.

And you've set up a proposition for Celebrini where you can't be wrong. If he ends up being 1OA, it was always a sure-thing. He was that much better than everyone else, even though most people view 1OA as up for debate. If he doesn't earn 1OA, it was because of an injury that we don't even know will impact him very much.
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Different roles, why? Because the coach recognized that Celebrini was ready to be the guy.

I'm just giving my opinion about the player as I see it. You don't know me as a talent evaluator, I'm more than ready to downrank anyone at any time if the data is showing something else.
 
A Swedish SHG would be hillarious here... Right call.

I say we try a point shot and net front traffic. A rebound perhaps.
 
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