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Historical What If: (Healthy) Aging Bobby Orr through the 1980s

MadLuke said:
Not sure if it made it harder or easier, better tool can level up the field and considering you get judged versus how much better you are than others mostly....

Same goes for Bossy and his impressive wrist shot, does the gap between him and the median first liner with a good shot get bigger or smaller with modern many flex to choose from composite stick...

The competition for the Ross, Hart and cup does not necessarily get easier for Orr for him to win more of those after 1975 than before.

The bruins stay a strong team and could win obviously, but from 1976 to 1988 you have to beat the dynastic Habs or Isles or Oilers to do it or time it really well with a year they fumble before you meat them, that 100% of Orr rest of career.

Obviously if he get to play for one of those... that a different story.

One factor for the Hart, does not split vote with Espo anymore (either he leave like in the real world or decline like in the real world).
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Granted it ignores a bunch of butterfly effect, but I think giving them 1 Cup over those Habs teams is pretty easy..."too many men"

They dont lose that series if you plop a healthy Orr in the lineup
 
Yes at least 1 cup seem probable (which would be the same or less amount of Cups post than pre), 2-3 quite possible, that replying to someone predicting 2 to 4 more cups.

The no pre-1973 injuries pointed out is a bit of a different can of worm, talking about if he can continue after 1975 in better shape.
 
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He hits 50 goals and 150 points, I dare say at least twice. He's still better than a younger Coffey who put up 49 goals. If he remained with Boston, they might even win another cup or 2. He probably finishes as the 2 or 3 in scoring up until the late 80's gradullay just feasting off assists with 30 goal seasons.

80's Hockey was very forgiving, he would have abssoutely destroyed and melted our brains. Could he his 160+ points or more, maybe.
 
BigBadBruins7708 said:
Granted it ignores a bunch of butterfly effect, but I think giving them 1 Cup over those Habs teams is pretty easy..."too many men"

They dont lose that series if you plop a healthy Orr in the lineup
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But you assume Orr is added to that roster. Jean Ratelle was a huge huge part of those teams as was Rick Middleton. If Orr remains even somewhat healthy the trade for Ratelle never gets made and the trade for Middleton never happens either. That takes the top 2 offensive players that year in the plsyoffs for the Bs
 
ozzie said:
He hits 50 goals and 150 points, I dare say at least twice. He's still better than a younger Coffey who put up 49 goals. If he remained with Boston, they might even win another cup or 2. He probably finishes as the 2 or 3 in scoring up until the late 80's gradullay just feasting off assists with 30 goal seasons.

80's Hockey was very forgiving, he would have abssoutely destroyed and melted our brains. Could he his 160+ points or more, maybe.
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In my opinion, this is crazy talk. Two forwards in 107 years of the NHL have managed a 160-point pace season. You're suggesting that a 10-years-past-his-prime defenceman, who's already had about 5 knee surgeries, and whose cohort generally retired at around age 33, is going to be 34 years old (or whatever) and scoring 160 points?

(By the way, Coffey's best was 48 goals.)
 
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Orr
Through age 26 season
621-259-611-870-115 points/82 games

Then he breaks down.

Coffey
Through age 26 season
578-224-512-736-104 points/82 games
After age 26 season
831-172-623-795-78 points/82 games
Total
1409-396-1135-1531-89 points/82 games

Crosby is an interesting comparison.

Crosby
Through age 26 season
550-274-495-769-115 points/82 games
Since
802-351-567-918-94 points/82 games
Total
1352-625-1062-1687-102 points/82 games

Orr is such a unique player so it's really hard to know how he would age. The Crosby totals feel preety good to me, but I think Orr would have a few monster seasons unlike Crosby who've been incredibly consistent.
 
The Panther said:
In my opinion, this is crazy talk. Two forwards in 107 years of the NHL have managed a 160-point pace season. You're suggesting that a 10-years-past-his-prime defenceman, who's already had about 5 knee surgeries, and whose cohort generally retired at around age 33, is going to be 34 years old (or whatever) and scoring 160 points?

(By the way, Coffey's best was 48 goals.)
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Thread is based on a fictional healthy aging Orr.

His brain would have chopped up the league in the 80's just like Gretzky did. Past his prime defenseman, ouch man? What the man did on one good knee, just imagine on two. Not to mention first half of the 80's he'd be playing with Park and a young Bourque. Boston was a good team too. I'd suspect his skating would have aged like Coffey's, and still been great into his his mid 30's.

As he got older he'd feast on assists with those players and team. There is a reason some people have him down as their number 1. I have him top 3.

The only thing I'd quesition is does he still end up in Chicago or stay with Boston? Because if healthy that changes the last 4 years of his actual career. Doesn't miss a season, keeps on putting up big seasons. Who knows? Playing in the crappy Norris division in the 80's with the Leafs and dead things.

It's freaking Bobby Orr!
 
I usually really enjoy player hypothetical "what if" scenarios, and there are some players I find super easy and obvious to speculate on. Crosby for example - if no major injuries at his peak, easy to project where he wins more ross/harts, and ~point totals.

Even Lemieux is kind of easy. No I can't say for sure if he'd surpass 92 goals and 215 points - but I'm confident if fully healthy from ~89 to 94 he'd probably take a few cracks at it. Bossy would age well as a goal-scorer (longevity beyond a certain age more unpredictable). etc etc

With Orr? Absolutely no idea. We can throw shit at the wall and speculate on scenarios, but I honestly don't have a good feeling one way or another. He'd be ~31 when Gretzky was a rookie. As a defensemen Lidstrom won 6 Norrises beyond age 31 - Bourque had great seasons beyond age 31. But then others also slow down tremendously. Potvin? Slowed down tremendously in his 30s.

I could see Orr only being a top ~10-15 defensemen into his 30s, late 30s, and nothing too special. Still smart and capable, but no longer truly elite/best in league.
Or I could see him competing with Bourque/Coffey for top ~1-2 defensemen in league for much of his 30s.
Or I could see him competing with Gretzky for Harts in the early 80s.

Big wide range, and impossible to say.
 
Note that I am not saying a healthy-Orr in the early 1980s would not have been the best Dman in the NHL (he probably would have been), nor that he would not have won the Norris (he probably would have). He may have even had 100+ points seasons and the like into his thirties.

However, 160 point seasons are out of the question. When Orr was at his absolute physical peak, playing probably 35+ minutes a night, on the League's highest scoring team between 1930 and 1981 (a team with 7 of the top-10 scorers in the League), he scored 139 points. Amazing as that is, it still means he received points on "only" 34.8% of Boston's goals scored that season. In the only other season he surpassed 122 points, 1974-75 (when he won the Art Ross again), he did a little better team-wise, scoring 135 points from 345 Boston goals, or 39.1% of the total.

The young Ray Bourque-Bruins from 1979-80 through 1983-84 were, in aggregate, the seventh-highest scoring team, with a healthy 4.03 goals-per-game. That's 87 fewer goals per season than they scored in the peak 1970-71 season, and about 28 fewer goals per season than their aggregate average of 1970-71 through 1974-75.

So, sure, if you throw a veteran Bobby Orr into the 1979-80-to-1983-84 Bruins, they get a little better offensively and probably score more, but the most I can see this possibly increasing is up to the 1970-71-to-1974-75 levels again (though honestly that seems like too high, as that was, to that date, the highest scoring team of all time). And remember, if the early-80s' Bruins have Orr, they might not have drafted Bourque at all... though let's not dwell on that strange thought. But surely one of Park or Bourque isn't there in this scenario.

Anyway, my point is, an older, aged 31 to 36 Bobby Orr isn't going to suddenly start dominating team scoring at higher levels than he did in his younger, physical prime, on the highest scoring team ever. Scoring 160 points on this early-80s' Bruins team would require Orr to get points on something like 45-50% of the club's goals while being one of the older Dmen in the NHL. If he couldn't come anywhere close to that in 1971, why would be suddenly be able to do it when he's past his prime, 10 years later?
 
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The Panther said:
In my opinion, this is crazy talk.
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I feel it can get like this a bit when we talk about older Orr scoring significantly more than what he did on the 399 goals Bruins with 76 goals Esposito once he play in the high flying 80s....

What if Perreault, Trottier, Potvin, Bossy or Dionne get a career altering injury summer of 1979, people could have made some what if healthy in the high flying 80s thread and being very wrong in them. (Or if Lafleur never come back of his 1980 playoff knee injury)

In reality Bossy never scored more goals than his 69 in 1979, Potvin 100 points season was 1979, Perreault highest scoring season was 1976, Dionne did score more in the 80s a bit, but a more reasonable ~10-15% (and he was an all timer aging wise), Trottier biggest season was 1979.

There is not much of a pattern for players that made the transition young enough (before 25 for many listed above) to score more after 1980 than before and Orr would have been above 30. And those who did (Bossy in points not goals-Dionne) were younger and went up by a reasonable amount on teams that got better offensively in raw goals or stayed as good at least.
 
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Yes worth noting that league scoring aside, 70s Bruins basically already scored like an 80s team. Wild discrepancies in team talent with crummy expansion teams meant just league scoring alone doesn’t explain everything (even more so than other time periods, likely similar in O6 years where the “3+3” league gets felt the most). Not to say they may not have scored more as a team if they had actually been in the 80s, but that aging Orr on a less stacked 80s team doesn’t necessarily score more via league osmosis.
 
I think Orr is an amazing player and and the 2nd or 3rd greatest player of all time. But I do think sometimes that Esposito gets a little disrespected as someone who simply benefitted from playing with Orr. They had a special synergy that also benefitted Orr that I don’t think is easily changed/replaced. Sort of like Gretzky, Kurri, and Coffey. Gretzky can score 160-170 playing with Bob Kudelski but to score 215 he needs Kurri, Coffee etc. I do think whether Esposito retires or is traded that this affects Orr’s top end. Without Esposito I think Orr is a 100-120 point scorer until the late 70’s-early 80’s and then an 80 point guy till maybe 85. No one plays past 37 in the 80’s so I don’t see him lasting longer than that. They certainly win one of Montreal’s 4 and cups and maybe a second one. He wins 3-4 more Norris trophies until they just get tired of voting for him. It’s still the worst what might have been in hockey.
 
While we're dreaming,

Orr was also playing for the Oilers in the 80's in my head-cannon.

He'd have put up a few more 130+ point seasons.
 
JackSlater said:
In terms of the career scoring record - Orr averaged 131 points per 80 games for six seasons from 1970 to 1975, and even by 1975 his health was diminishing regardless of leading the NHL in scoring. League scoring was higher in the NHL in the late 70s and early 80s than it was during Orr's prime. If he's healthy, I would conservatively guess he scores something like 120 points per season over the next 4 years or so. That puts Orr at 1350 points heading into the 1979-1980 season at age 31, exactly 500 points shy of where Howe finished. Brad Park had knee problems and he still finished with 280 points from the 1980 season onward. Orr was much better and would have something to chase... I think there is a solid chance for healthy Orr to set the record for a few years before Gretzky obliterates it.
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Even by 1974
The playoff games available show how night and day his skating was by 74 vs 1971. His mental game and IQ was top notch so he was still able to be elite effective despite his diminished skating after the early 70s.

If we are talking modern medical treatment, it's likely he ages like Howe did. Still massively effective even past 35
 
67 others said:
Even by 1974
The playoff games available show how night and day his skating was by 74 vs 1971. His mental game and IQ was top notch so he was still able to be elite effective despite his diminished skating after the early 70s.

If we are talking modern medical treatment, it's likely he ages like Howe did. Still massively effective even past 35
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Sure but I think we also have to be reasonable here, players always fall off over time. I'm not sure how long Orr can stay at his 1970-1972 peak, probably the best peak ever. Crosby was never as good after his injury in 2011, Ovechkin was never as good after 2010 (don't know any medical reason), Gretzky was never as good after being Sutered in 1991, Lemieux was never physically as good after 1989, even Howe was never as good after his wrist injury in 1955. It happens. Orr got it worse than most, but even then his age is very similar at the end of the 1972 season as Lemieux's was after the 1989 season.
 
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JackSlater said:
Sure but I think we also have to be reasonable here, players always fall off over time. I'm not sure how long Orr can stay at his 1970-1972 peak, probably the best peak ever. Crosby was never as good after his injury in 2011, Ovechkin was never as good after 2010 (don't know any medical reason), Gretzky was never as good after being Sutered in 1991, Lemieux was never physically as good after 1989, even Howe was never as good after his wrist injury in 1955. It happens. Orr got it worse than most, but even then his age is very similar at the end of the 1972 season as Lemieux's was after the 1989 season.
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Based on his actual career, he didnt drop from that level from 73-75 even with his knees giving out.

73: 101 in 63
74: 122 in 74
75: 135 in 80

Good for 358 in 221 (1.62 PPG) vs 70-72 where he had 376 in 230 (1.63 PPG)

It's not unreasonable to think he maintains that level of play through 79 (age 30) then his age slow down gets an offset from the wide open early 80s.
 
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There is a very real drop from 1972 to 1973. The contemporary reports are very clear on this. He went from being the best defensive player in the world, to being a good-not-great defensive defenseman. He started to sacrifice defense to rush and lacked the footspeed to come back.

That 1970-1972 level, of being the best offensive player in the world and best defensive player in the world, was the highest peak play of any player. 1973-1975 is a clear step down. Still the overall best player in the world, but it's just not the same.
 
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BigBadBruins7708 said:
Based on his actual career, he didnt drop from that level from 73-75 even with his knees giving out.

73: 101 in 63
74: 122 in 74
75: 135 in 80

Good for 358 in 221 (1.62 PPG) vs 70-72 where he had 376 in 230 (1.63 PPG)

It's not unreasonable to think he maintains that level of play through 79 (age 30) then his age slow down gets an offset from the wide open early 80s.
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That's just points though. Orr was not the dominant force he had been after 1972. It's pretty clear watching him, and it shows up in his results in terms of overall scoring when he is on the ice. Even in the Canada Cup, Orr has the most points but you could see that with a little improvement Potvin was right there with him as a defenceman and would get a Norris or two from Orr at some point before the decade ends. In terms of offence I do think that Orr averages comfortably over 100 points per season through the 1970s, assuming he is reasonably healthy and plays most games.
 
He wouldn’t be immune to aging and he would likely lose a bit of the mystique he has from never playing meaningful hockey past the age of 26.
 
Video Nasty said:
never playing meaningful hockey past the age of 26.
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That seem to assume he do not put his team in a good position for the playoff from time to time ?

Bruins were still good from 77 to 84 (third to the Habs and Islanders in the regular season and in playoff wins), if healthy Orr stay a Bruins for life (hard to imagine not signing him at a ridiculous price without the injuries) and it was a rich era for team Canada.

1976 (27-28 years old)-1981 (32-33 years old) and as a veteran like Crosby during the 4 nation this year or Bourque in 1998, 1984 (36-37), that everyone watch.

Considering Crossman, Hartsburg, Patrick, Rochefort made 1987, maybe he go if he still play and want to go, in a more limited role. MacInnis in 2003 was still a big star and maybe would have been in 2004 without the career ending injury.
 
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JackSlater said:
Sure but I think we also have to be reasonable here, players always fall off over time. I'm not sure how long Orr can stay at his 1970-1972 peak, probably the best peak ever. Crosby was never as good after his injury in 2011, Ovechkin was never as good after 2010 (don't know any medical reason), Gretzky was never as good after being Sutered in 1991, Lemieux was never physically as good after 1989, even Howe was never as good after his wrist injury in 1955. It happens. Orr got it worse than most, but even then his age is very similar at the end of the 1972 season as Lemieux's was after the 1989 season.
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That just it.

Orr had fallen off. Quite visibly by 73....but he still put up 46 goals and 135 Points on one leg with a fraction of his previous mobility because mentally he was hyper hockey sense.
 
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