HF Wrestling Draft IX - Friday Apr 8th start - Discussion

[CHGoalie27]

Well @Natey, no need to apologize for coming off as rude, you're right- everyone has their specific tastes.,

But speaking of selling the pain, I don't expect that to be an issue with you, my friend!

 

[HandsomeHollywood]

I'm near convinced that @les Habs is Ted DiBiase Jr's HF account.

 

[JackSlater]

Leshabs does strangely have an axe to grind with DiBiase, but we all have our random hates. I hate Randy Orton and whichever card has him will almost certainly be viewed worse by me just for his presence.

 

[JackSlater]

I also did not expect BruinDust to take Jay Leno, as I had planned to do eventually. The draft offers many surprises.

 

[les Habs]

I don't mean for this to come off rude... but I don't really care if you like him.

We all have different tastes. I think he was very good in the ring. He was one of the best sellers of his era. Selling and facial expressions were just great.

And he had plenty of good matches against the few good workers back then, even in WWF. WWF was filled with poor workers at the top back in the late 80s, so he didn't really have much to work with. His matches with Savage were always solid.

The point wasn't about liking him, which I never said I didn't and I said he was a good pick, but rather demonstrating he was good in the ring. You said he had plenty of good matches, so I'm just asking to have one linked so I can see an example. He could work and sell, but as I already said, his set of moves was very limited. Cutting a good promo, selling and working are nice, but if you're not proficient in the ring then something is missing. Eddie Kingston comes to mind. Great character, but painful to watch in a match.

I'm near convinced that @les Habs is Ted DiBiase Jr's HF account.

Nothing to do with him.

Leshabs does strangely have an axe to grind with DiBiase, but we all have our random hates. I hate Randy Orton and whichever card has him will almost certainly be viewed worse by me just for his presence.

No axe to grind, just calling it like it is. That said, yes, people do have their likes and dislikes.

 

[JackSlater]

The point wasn't about liking him, which I never said I didn't and I said he was a good pick, but rather demonstrating he was good in the ring. You said he had plenty of good matches, so I'm just asking to have one linked so I can see an example. He could work and sell, but as I already said, his set of moves was very limited. Cutting a good promo, selling and working are nice, but if you're not proficient in the ring then something is missing. Eddie Kingston comes to mind. Great character, but painful to watch in a match.



Nothing to do with him.



No axe to grind, just calling it like it is. That said, yes, people do have their likes and dislikes.

It's the going out of your way three years in a row to comment on DiBiase that makes it seem like an axe to grind. Not that it's a problem in my eyes, I like the random things that happen in the draft.

 

[les Habs]

It's the going out of your way three years in a row to comment on DiBiase that makes it seem like an axe to grind. Not that it's a problem in my eyes, I like the random things that happen in the draft.

Seriously? I could write of list of things I could say were axes to grind. The only reason I comment is there tends to be a lot of fawning over him. I understand why he gets the praise he does because of his work as The Million Dollar Man, but that for me doesn't change the fact that he was very limited in the ring.

And to be clear, this has nothing to do with @HandsomeHollywood picking him if anyone thinks that is the case. I have voted for his cards far more than I have not.

 

[Natey]

Well @Natey, no need to apologize for coming off as rude, you're right- everyone has their specific tastes.,

But speaking of selling the pain, I don't expect that to be an issue with you, my friend!

It's the only thing I'm good at anyway lol

 

[les Habs]

It's the only thing I'm good at anyway lol

Well that's unfortunate because @CHGoalie27 will probably have you in an intergender match and you won't be able to show us.

 

[Natey]

The point wasn't about liking him, which I never said I didn't and I said he was a good pick, but rather demonstrating he was good in the ring. You said he had plenty of good matches, so I'm just asking to have one linked so I can see an example. He could work and sell, but as I already said, his set of moves was very limited. Cutting a good promo, selling and working are nice, but if you're not proficient in the ring then something is missing. Eddie Kingston comes to mind. Great character, but painful to watch in a match.



Nothing to do with him.



No axe to grind, just calling it like it is. That said, yes, people do have their likes and dislikes.

I think you're taking my statement a little too literally there. When I said like, I was referring to thinking and liking him as being in good in the ring.

There was zero pain to me watching DiBiase in the ring. And most know me here as being one of the bigger workrate guys. I've had plenty of PMs about my old card here saying it was the best card ever from a workrate standpoint.

DiBiase, in his time period, was very good, in my opinion. Not great. Not the best. Very good.

It's hard to link you a match because it's not easy to find Mid South stuff on YouTube. And you don't like any of his WWF stuff - even though I think he has a handful of good matches there too when he could work against people with talent.

And while he may not have a ton of moves, his selling and facial expressions are just as important as anything else.

 

[les Habs]

I think you're taking my statement a little too literally there. When I said like, I was referring to thinking and liking him as being in good in the ring.

There was zero pain to me watching DiBiase in the ring. And most know me here as being one of the bigger workrate guys. I've had plenty of PMs about my old card here saying it was the best card ever from a workrate standpoint.

DiBiase, in his time period, was very good, in my opinion. Not great. Not the best. Very good.

It's hard to link you a match because it's not easy to find Mid South stuff on YouTube. And you don't like any of his WWF stuff - even though I think he has a handful of good matches there too when he could work against people with talent.

And while he may not have a ton of moves, his selling and facial expressions are just as important as anything else.

Well moves are part of the overall package, simple as that. If it's not important to you, more power to you. Being proficient with a great set of moves is one thing, work rate is another, selling is another and promos are yet another and so on. Again, I'm not negging the pick and praised it at the time, but he's still limited in the ring with regards to the moves he does. I'm cool if you want to disagree, but I'd love to see a match demonstrating otherwise. His ability to sell, his facial expressions and his workate don't change that and at some point I and I'm sure others will get bored if a match goes past a certain time frame if he his move set is limited. That said I'm sure @HandsomeHollywood will do a better job of utilizing him than 95% of the competition would.

And I didn't say I didn't like his WWF stuff, but that he was lacking. He was in UWF as well.

 

[JackSlater]

Seriously? I could write of list of things I could say were axes to grind. The only reason I comment is there tends to be a lot of fawning over him. I understand why he gets the praise he does because of his work as The Million Dollar Man, but that for me doesn't change the fact that he was very limited in the ring.

And to be clear, this has nothing to do with @HandsomeHollywood picking him if anyone thinks that is the case. I have voted for his cards far more than I have not.

Before HandsomeHollywood mentioned that Ted Jr. was going to be in his storyline, Sr. hadn't been mentioned since April 16, and it isn't as though the Million Dollar Man is someone that gets brought up as a standard of in-ring excellence that often or ever. I don't think that you're bringing it up due to the gm or to impact the draft in any way, it's just a very specific point you've brought up various times with no real opening. Let's just say it's strange to talk up jr. in one sentence and then crap on sr. in the next.

 

[les Habs]

That said I'm sure @HandsomeHollywood will do a better job of utilizing him than 95% of the competition would.

I will say though, probably the best use of him that I remember was @GongShowWilly's card a few years back at that casino. IMO that was his best ever card and I really liked that one.

Before HandsomeHollywood mentioned that Ted Jr. was going to be in his storyline, Sr. hadn't been mentioned since April 16, and it isn't as though the Million Dollar Man is someone that gets brought up as a standard of in-ring excellence that often or ever. I don't think that you're bringing it up due to the gm or to impact the draft in any way, it's just a very specific point you've brought up various times with no real opening. Let's just say it's strange to talk up jr. in one sentence and then crap on sr. in the next.

I'm "talking up" Jr by saying he's better in the ring based on his move set. I also think he had the look, the "heritage" of being DiBiase's son and the MDM's son. You've brought up Kevin von Erich for years with no real opening so yeah, strange.

 

[Natey]

Well moves are part of the overall package, simple as that. If it's not important to you, more power to you. Being proficient with a great set of moves is one thing, work rate is another, selling is another and promos are yet another and so on. Again, I'm not negging the pick and praised it at the time, but he's still limited in the ring with regards to the moves he does. I'm cool if you want to disagree, but I'd love to see a match demonstrating otherwise. His ability to sell, his facial expressions and his workate don't change that and at some point I and I'm sure others will get bored if a match goes past a certain time frame if he his move set is limited. That said I'm sure @HandsomeHollywood will do a better job of utilizing him than 95% of the competition would.

And I didn't say I didn't like his WWF stuff, but that he was lacking. He was in UWF as well.

Well I think that's impossible because we see wrestling very differently, apparently.

To me: Selling is 100% a part of workrate. Facial expressions are 100% a part of workrate. Workrate, to me, encompasses everything you do inside of the ring during a match.

In fact, a lot of wrestlers that have a ton of moves couldn't sell their way out of a wet paper bag. And today, that's acceptable in wrestling. In the 80's, it was not.

 

[JackSlater]

I will say though, probably the best use of him that I remember was @GongShowWilly's card a few years back at that casino. IMO that was his best ever card and I really liked that one.



I'm "talking up" Jr by saying he's better in the ring based on his move set. I also think he had the look, the "heritage" of being DiBiase's son and the MDM's son. You've brought up Kevin von Erich for years with no real opening so yeah, strange.

I did find you drafting Kevin Von Erich three or so times fairly funny, but that's not quite the same thing as randomly complaining about DiBiase's in-ring work various times over the years. It's more akin to you noting that HandsomeHollywood has drafted Jamie Noble roughly 54 times, CHGoalie27 invariably drafting Hayabusa, or that I've drafted Tully Blanchard and Brandi Rhodes so many times. You're certainly entitled to critique DiBiase out of nowhere, even if it is odd to do it within the same post where you talk up his son.

 

[HandsomeHollywood]

Ted DiBiase Jr best moves:
- corner punches
- inverted atomic drop
- cobra clutch backbreaker
- drop kick
- snapmare
- knee strike
- lariat
- cobra clutch slam
- sit-out spinebuster

Ted DiBiase's top moves:
- side suplex
- backbreaker
- gut-wrench suplex
- diving fist drop
- diving axe handle
- diving back elbow drop
- figure-4 leg-lock
- scoop slam
- cobra clutch sleeper
- piledriver
- swinging neckbreaker

I've compared the two move-sets with the aid of YouTube. Ted Jr. is far more limited, especially considering he was working during the PG-era of WWE. I guess you could argue he wouldn't be allowed to do as much but I think that's moot. Given that Ted Jr. lacked the ability to cut a decent promo, couldn't sell as well and wasn't as good a "worker" as his dad, I think this case is as open and shut as it could be.

Money Inc vs LoD from SummerSlam is better than anything Ted Jr ever did.

Les Habs doesn't have to like Ted Sr. We all have our tastes. But I think saying Ted Jr is better in-ring or has a more diverse moveset are demonstrably false claims, not unlike comparing Bam Neeley to Chavo Guerrero Jr. Ted Jr may have Ted Sr beat in the look department, but only if you value a more conventionally attractive look above all else. Ted Sr looked like a rich jerk in the 80s whereas Ted Jr looked like Orton clone #5 in the 2000-2010s.
Ted Jr's moves are certainly faster and more "video game-esque", and they can be eye catching (his distraction lariat and jumping knee strike aren't bad), but Ted Sr comes off more natural and less rehearsed or athletic. Given that Ted Jr can't work a crowd, this means his time between moves is not utilized at all, especially compared to his father's world-class ability to work a crowd.

I'll post some good DiBiase matches later tonight or tomorrow. I'm getting the sense that les Habs prefers the current style of workrate and fast pace matches though, so I can't imagine I'll find a Ted Sr match that would convince him of these findings.

 

[les Habs]

Well I think that's impossible because we see wrestling very differently, apparently.

To me: Selling is 100% a part of workrate. Facial expressions are 100% a part of workrate. Workrate, to me, encompasses everything you do inside of the ring during a match.

In fact, a lot of wrestlers that have a ton of moves couldn't sell their way out of a wet paper bag. And today, that's acceptable in wrestling. In the 80's, it was not.

So do moves not matter then? By your definition(s), are they not part of work rate?

I did find you drafting Kevin Von Erich three or so times fairly funny, but that's not quite the same thing as randomly complaining about DiBiase's in-ring work various times over the years. It's more akin to you noting that HandsomeHollywood has drafted Jamie Noble roughly 54 times, CHGoalie27 invariably drafting Hayabusa, or that I've drafted Tully Blanchard and Brandi Rhodes so many times. You're certainly entitled to critique DiBiase out of nowhere, even if it is odd to do it within the same post where you talk up his son.

Again, this coming from someone who drafts others more than three times. Point is you're talking about random and yet you did the same with any number of things out of nowhere.

Ted DiBiase Jr best moves:
- corner punches
- inverted atomic drop
- cobra clutch backbreaker
- drop kick
- snapmare
- knee strike
- lariat
- cobra clutch slam
- sit-out spinebuster

Ted DiBiase's top moves:
- side suplex
- backbreaker
- gut-wrench suplex
- diving fist drop
- diving axe handle
- diving back elbow drop
- figure-4 leg-lock
- scoop slam
- cobra clutch sleeper
- piledriver
- swinging neckbreaker

I've compared the two move-sets with the aid of YouTube. Ted Jr. is far more limited, especially considering he was working during the PG-era of WWE. I guess you could argue he wouldn't be allowed to do as much but I think that's moot. Given that Ted Jr. lacked the ability to cut a decent promo, couldn't sell as well and wasn't as good a "worker" as his dad, I think this case is as open and shut as it could be.

Money Inc vs LoD from SummerSlam is better than anything Ted Jr ever did.

Les Habs doesn't have to like Ted Sr. We all have our tastes. But I think saying Ted Jr is better in-ring or has a more diverse moveset are demonstrably false claims, not unlike comparing Bam Neeley to Chavo Guerrero Jr. Ted Jr may have Ted Sr beat in the look department, but only if you value a more conventionally attractive look above all else. Ted Sr looked like a rich jerk in the 80s whereas Ted Jr looked like Orton clone #5 in the 2000-2010s.
Ted Jr's moves are certainly faster and more "video game-esque", and they can be eye catching (his distraction lariat and jumping knee strike aren't bad), but Ted Sr comes off more natural and less rehearsed or athletic. Given that Ted Jr can't work a crowd, this means his time between moves is not utilized at all, especially compared to his father's world-class ability to work a crowd.

I'll post some good DiBiase matches later tonight or tomorrow. I'm getting the sense that les Habs prefers the current style of workrate and fast pace matches though, so I can't imagine I'll find a Ted Sr match that would convince him of these findings.

Oh boy. Here are some actual links:





Now to be fair, one has more moves than the other, and while there are reasons for that I would say one is that Ted Sr simply didn't have the same move set, which is entirely the point. One might argue wrestling was different back then, but he simply did not. And when I saw your post and looked at Ted Sr's moves you listed, my immediate reaction was it shows exactly what I'm saying. A lot of those are pretty basic or not as "complex". That doesn't mean they're bad, and I love me gut-wrench suplex, but they're not as complex and when I look at the list you provided for Ted Sr I think it gets more stale more quickly as a result. As for everything you mentioned, irrelevant to what I originally said so not sure what you'd bring up promos for example, which isn't to even mention I already said as much.

I like a mix of styles, but again that isn't even relevant. Point is that Ted Jr has more of a set of moves. Yes, I said he was better in the ring than his father, but that isn't what I meant. What I should have said was he had a greater set of moves, which he did. Overall I would take Ted Sr first because of his character and his promo work, but with regards to in-ring work it would be different depending on the respective opponent. And I will add, I thought Jr had a bit more by way of moves than I think he actually did.

 

[CHGoalie27]

Well that's unfortunate because @CHGoalie27 will probably have you in an intergender match and you won't be able to show us.

Nope. And any of the gals I drafted would put the hurt on.

 

[HandsomeHollywood]

So do moves not matter then? By your definition(s), are they not part of work rate?



Again, this coming from someone who drafts others more than three times. Point is you're talking about random and yet you did the same with any number of things out of nowhere.



Oh boy. Here are some actual links:





Now to be fair, one has more moves than the other, and while there are reasons for that I would say one is that Ted Sr simply didn't have the same move set, which is entirely the point. One might argue wrestling was different back then, but he simply did not. And when I saw your post and looked at Ted Sr's moves you listed, my immediate reaction was it shows exactly what I'm saying. A lot of those are pretty basic or not as "complex". That doesn't mean they're bad, and I love me gut-wrench suplex, but they're not as complex and when I look at the list you provided for Ted Sr I think it gets more stale more quickly as a result. As for everything you mentioned, irrelevant to what I originally said so not sure what you'd bring up promos for example, which isn't to even mention I already said as much.

I like a mix of styles, but again that isn't even relevant. Point is that Ted Jr has more of a set of moves. Yes, I said he was better in the ring than his father, but that isn't what I meant. What I should have said was he had a greater set of moves, which he did. Overall I would take Ted Sr first because of his character and his promo work, but with regards to in-ring work it would be different depending on the respective opponent. And I will add, I thought Jr had a bit more by way of moves than I think he actually did.

So you're saying Ted Jr has more moves? Is that it? I wouldn't even say that's true as the video you linked to is counting one-off moves and moves Ted Sr does as well (leg sweep, stun gun, electric chair drop). I also fail to see the complexity of the moves that you're mentioning. And further, I think poo-poo'ing something like a gutwrench suplex, swinging neckbreaker or diving back elbow as "basic" or "not complex" is quite arrogant.
Crowd work is as part of a match as moves and are both considered in-ring work. I would actually say the actual "moves", how many of them, their complexity and their diversity is one of the least important parts of the overall total package. Simply comparing movesets with no thought given to context or the other aspects of in-ring work is entirely pointless and doesn't really do anything than prove two people have different moves, which isn't indicative of anything more.
I'll go further and say Ted Sr has a more diverse regular move-set since he comes off the top a lot more often and uses submissions. It's also worth pointing out that those YouTube videos don't list every move a wrestler does and it's best to assess move-sets based on "regular" (as in frequency) moves they do in a given match, which is what I tried to do with my lists.

I guess DiBiase has a limited move set if you just reject and don't like his moves.

This is the most I've considered individual "move sets" since the days of making CAWs on the N64. I also assume we are both steadfast in our resolves here.

 

[les Habs]

So you're saying Ted Jr has more moves? Is that it? I wouldn't even say that's true as the video you linked to is counting one-off moves and moves Ted Sr does as well (leg sweep, stun gun, electric chair drop). I also fail to see the complexity of the moves that you're mentioning. And further, I think poo-poo'ing something like a gutwrench suplex, swinging neckbreaker or diving back elbow as "basic" or "not complex" is quite arrogant.
Crowd work is as part of a match as moves and are both considered in-ring work. I would actually say the actual "moves", how many of them, their complexity and their diversity is one of the least important parts of the overall total package. Simply comparing movesets with no thought given to context or the other aspects of in-ring work is entirely pointless and doesn't really do anything than prove two people have different moves, which isn't indicative of anything more.
I'll go further and say Ted Sr has a more diverse regular move-set since he comes off the top a lot more often and uses submissions. It's also worth pointing out that those YouTube videos don't list every move a wrestler does and it's best to assess move-sets based on "regular" (as in frequency) moves they do in a given match, which is what I tried to do with my lists.

I guess DiBiase has a limited move set if you just reject and don't like his moves.

This is the most I've considered individual "move sets" since the days of making CAWs on the N64. I also assume we are both steadfast in our resolves here.

Oh boy. Arrogant? I just said I liked the gut-wrench suplex. They aren't as complex, like the double axe handle or fist drop.

No, they don't show all the moves, hence my saying as much. Again though, since there aren't other videos posted demonstrating anything kind of hard to go by anything else.

Anyway, agree to disagree.

 

[Megahab]

More or better moves doesn't equal better work rate. Goldberg had cool moves. Anyone can have a good moveset.

 

[les Habs]

More or better moves doesn't equal better work rate.

And no one said it did.

 

[JackSlater]

Again, this coming from someone who drafts others more than three times. Point is you're talking about random and yet you did the same with any number of things out of nowhere.

I'm not sure that you even know what point you are trying to make. I am saying that your random shot at Ted Dibiase sr., apropos of nothing, is odd, particularly when made in comparison to his crappy son. By all means believe it - it's just an odd belief to bring up various times.

For example: Unpopular Wrestling Opinions

Two years ago when you made a post that just says: Ted DiBiase's in-ring work was VERY limited. I have to assume that you mean Million Dollar Ted. I believe you've even defended it before, which is certainly better to just saying something an then disappearing. It's the strangeness of contrasting him with jr. in a negative light. I think Million Dollar Ted is solid enough and good at heeling it up... no time for junior though.

 

[Bondurant]

For what it is worth Ted DiBiase was declared Best Technical Wrestler by the Observer years before his WWF run. Say what you will about Meltzer but the winners of the award have been proficient in the ring. DiBiase is sandwiched between Backlund and Tiger Mask. Good company.

 

[Bondurant]

La Parka.

CMLL had a show in Phoenix. Must have been near a decade ago. La Parka was there wrestling as LA Park because someone stole his gimmick. Despite his obviously increased girth he could still tango with a chair like no one's business. There was a Mexican fellow near me with a child on his shoulders. When La Parka came out he turned around to me and said "He got fat."