Player Discussion Henrik Lundqvist

[ReggieDunlop68]

Although I agree, I will also throw out the random thought that the Rangers would have been better off had they traded Leetch instead of Zubov.

By including how Leetch eventually fell apart, yes, but there is no way you could make that decision in '95 without a crystal ball and guarantee from god.

 

[The S5]

Do you have Dan Carcillo ahead of Joe Thornton as well? Because Carcillo has a cup.

Actually, no, because Carcillo was a bum. You see, Mike Richter wasn't a bum. He was quite good.
But, I see the simplistic attempt you made there. Nice attempt though.

 

[ReggieDunlop68]

Actually, no, because Carcillo was a bum. You see, Mike Richter wasn't a bum. He was quite good.
But, I see the simplistic attempt you made there. Nice attempt though.

Fine.

Richter>Glen Healy>Lundqvist

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Actually, no, because Carcillo was a bum. You see, Mike Richter wasn't a bum. He was quite good.
But, I see the simplistic attempt you made there. Nice attempt though.

By your logic, these goalies are better than Lundqvist:

Cam Ward
Antti Niemi
Chris Osgood
Nikolai Khabibulin
Mike Vernon

 

[Irishguy42]

Carcillo is twice as good as Lundqvist because he has two Cups. Is that how this works?

 

[The S5]

By your logic, these goalies are better than Lundqvist:

Cam Ward
Antti Niemi
Chris Osgood
Nikolai Khabibulin
Mike Vernon

Is that how you break down my logic?
Look, I get it, you are a Hank fan as you should be. BUT, great players need championships to cement their legacy. Hank doesn't have one and odds are he won't.
Remember, we are talking about players who were considered at the top of their position. Mike Richter was and is in the discussion for greatest American born goaltender. The guys you mentioned were not.

 

[silverfish]

actually never mind.

but the cup argument is a dumb one. always has been, always will be.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Is that how you break down my logic?
Look, I get it, you are a Hank fan as you should be. BUT, great players need championships to cement their legacy. Hank doesn't have one and odds are he won't.
Remember, we are talking about players who were considered at the top of their position. Mike Richter was and is in the discussion for greatest American born goaltender. The guys you mentioned were not.

Hahahahahahaha. You clearly don't know me. This is the first time I have been called a Hank fan. I am pretty sure the majority of people here can tell you I am very, very hard on Lunqvist and criticize him more than I maybe should. Lundqvist is the better goalie compared to Richter though. Winning a cup doesn't change that. Is Ovechkin all of a sudden a better player after winning the cup? No. He's the same. His legacy might have benefited from it, sure. But winning a cup doesn't make you better.

Lundqvist is better than Richter

 

[Harbour Dog]

Is that how you break down my logic?
Look, I get it, you are a Hank fan as you should be. BUT, great players need championships to cement their legacy. Hank doesn't have one and odds are he won't.
Remember, we are talking about players who were considered at the top of their position. Mike Richter was and is in the discussion for greatest American born goaltender. The guys you mentioned were not.

And Hank already has 57 more wins than the winningest American goalie in the league's history (Vanbiesbrouck). If Lundqvist was American, there wouldn't be a 'discussion for greatest American born goaltender"; it would begin and end with him.

 

[Glen Sathers Cigar]

The cup argument is dumb.

In a 32 team league you’re going to see far more hall of famers not winning Cups going forward. It’s a team award.

It was one thing to figure the best players should win cups back in the days of 6 or 12 or even 20 team leagues. But the size of the league and the parity brought in by the salary cap the whole cup argument is becoming more unfair and ridiculous.

Especially for a player like Lundqvist who has a gold medal and also has had a great playoff career and dragged teams on deep runs.

And Mike Richter is my all time favorite hockey player but to put him above Lundqvist is just stupid.

 

[Megustaelhockey]

The cup argument is dumb.

In a 32 team league you’re going to see far more hall of famers not winning Cups going forward. It’s a team award.

It was one thing to figure the best players should win cups back in the days of 6 or 12 or even 20 team leagues. But the size of the league and the parity brought in by the salary cap the whole cup argument is becoming more unfair and ridiculous.

Especially for a player like Lundqvist who has a gold medal and also has had a great playoff career and dragged teams on deep runs.

And Mike Richter is my all time favorite hockey player but to put him above Lundqvist is just stupid.

Welcome back, Nordiques!!1!

 

[Synergy27]

Just to pile on, you can draw a parallel to the "most important position" discussion here too. A goalie literally cannot will his team to a Cup regardless of skill because he's only impacting one aspect of the game. A skater at least conceivably can if they are that good. I think history has shown that truly elite centers and defenseman can get away with lesser supporting casts than elite goalies can.

Judging a goalie's legacy on Cup wins is next level stupid.

 

[Beer League Sniper]

Lundqvist is the best goalie in the history of the franchise. It's not close.

I grew up idolizing Richter, but there's no contest.

Hank has insanely stable numbers throughout his entire career. Richter had some pretty rough seasons.

But, with Richter's insane lateral mobility, he could make saves no other goaltender could. Similar to Quick. I'd take Hank over Quick 10/10 times. It's just really crappy luck that Hank hasn't won a cup.

 

[Bleed Ranger Blue]

Lundqvist is the best goalie in the history of the franchise. It's not close.

I grew up idolizing Richter, but there's no contest.

Hank has insanely stable numbers throughout his entire career. Richter had some pretty rough seasons.

But, with Richter's insane lateral mobility, he could make saves no other goaltender could. Similar to Quick. I'd take Hank over Quick 10/10 times. It's just really crappy luck that Hank hasn't won a cup.

The cup has inflated Richter's legacy immeasurably. And even with that, he let in quite a few questionable late goals in the '94 run. And let's not even talk about '92.

 

[ThirdEye]

I've gotten on Hank for soft goals plenty of times, but just look at the rosters of the past 10 cup winners and then the one we had when we lost to the Kings and in previous seasons. This years cup winning team had 3 players that were all better than probably anyone on any of those teams. Not only that but our best players withered away come playoff time (cough *Nash* cough). We haven't won a cup despite Hank, not because of him.

If we ever get some combination of players of the caliber of Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, Kane, Kuznetsov, Kopitar, Doughty, etc... and we still can't win the Hank then talk to me. Our highest scorer during the past ten years or so in the playoffs was f***ing Brassard for crying out loud.

To me what Hank was able to do with completely subpar or middling teams is pretty incredible. He's had some forgettable moments, but which goalie hasn't in the playoffs?

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

I've gotten on Hank for soft goals plenty of times, but just look at the rosters of the past 10 cup winners and then the one we had when we lost to the Kings and in previous seasons. This years cup winning team had 3 players that were all better than probably anyone on any of those teams. Not only that but our best players withered away come playoff time (cough *Nash* cough). We haven't won a cup despite Hank, not because of him.

If we ever get some combination of players of the caliber of Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, Kane, Kuznetsov, Kopitar, Doughty, etc... and we still can't win the Hank then talk to me. Our highest scorer during the past ten years or so in the playoffs was ****ing Brassard for crying out loud.

To me what Hank was able to do with completely subpar or middling teams is pretty incredible. He's had some forgettable moments, but which goalie hasn't in the playoffs?

2018 Washington: Ovechkin, Kuznetsov, Backstrom
2016/2017 Pittsburgh: Crosby, Malkin, Kessel
2015 Chicago: Toews, Kane, Keith, Hossa
2014 Los Angeles: Kopitar, Doughty, Carter


All these players would instantly be the best player in their position on our team in their cup year,, if they'd join us.

 

[ThirdEye]

2018 Washington: Ovechkin, Kuznetsov, Backstrom
2016/2017 Pittsburgh: Crosby, Malkin, Kessel
2015 Chicago: Toews, Kane, Keith, Hossa
2014 Los Angeles: Kopitar, Doughty, Carter


All these players would instantly be the best player in their position on our team in their cup year,, if they'd join us.

Exactly... you can go back even further.

Second tier teams like the Rangers, Nashville, SJ, Columbus have had good runs but it is an almost unequivocal fact now that you can't win without elite players in multiple positions.

2014 was the only chance we had to realistically win and even then I think the Kings were clear-cut favorites. They were more skilled and way meaner. Every other year getting into the playoffs was a miracle on its own as a result of late season heroics by Hank.

 

[Gresch04]

Exactly... you can go back even further.

Second tier teams like the Rangers, Nashville, SJ, Columbus have had good runs but it is an almost unequivocal fact now that you can't win without elite players in multiple positions.

2014 was the only chance we had to realistically win and even then I think the Kings were clear-cut favorites. They were more skilled and way meaner. Every other year getting into the playoffs was a miracle on its own as a result of late season heroics by Hank.

It's even WORSE when you pay someone like an elite player and they don't come close to delivering, like old pal Nash. Those teams had very little wasted cap space. We had a giant black hole of $8M+ with no playoff mojo.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

It's even WORSE when you pay someone like an elite player and they don't come close to delivering, like old pal Nash. Those teams had very little wasted cap space. We had a giant black hole of $8M+ with no playoff mojo.

Nash had a 7.8m cap hit. Not 8m+. There's a difference between actual money and cap hit.

 

[Edge]

The cup has inflated Richter's legacy immeasurably. And even with that, he let in quite a few questionable late goals in the '94 run. And let's not even talk about '92.

Richter is a prime example of the type of very good goalies capable of playing elite hockey and winning championships.

But besides the cup there was also the World Cup, the 97 playoffs, the Olympics and other factors.

Personally, I always felt Richter's legacy took a bit of a hit because he was still playing for one of the few teams that didn't embrace a lockdown. trap-style defense in the 90s. Coupled with the Rangers essentially being a trainwreck after the age of 31 for him (God, to look at some of those rosters/defenses playing in front of him), I actually think we've come to undervalue Richter with time.

 

[Desdichado93]

I see him playing for Frolunda again and participating in WC's for Sweden at 40+. Not elsewhere in the NHL though. Returning to one's home club is a big thing in Euro sports.

I dont think he will. I dont remember when and where but IIRC Hank have said that he wont play in Sweden once he retires from NHL.

 

[Ben Grimm]

On Oct 11, 2012 the History of Hockey HF forum ranked Henrik as the 38th best goalie of all time behind Tim Thomas. http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/hoh-top-40-goaltenders-of-all-time.1270035/ At that date, were they correct?

 

[Glen Sathers Cigar]

I will never understand people who HATE Lundqvist. I’m not talking about anyone in particular on here but there’s a hive of people on Twitter and I simply don’t get it.

This isn’t some overrated UFA who came here on a big deal and disappointed.

He literally meets every category except a Cup to be objectively a legend for the franchise.

-He was a Rangers draft pick.
-He has played his entire career as a Ranger.
Vezina trophy won once and finalist 5 times.
-Led team to Presidents Trophy and EC championship.
-Has had amazing playoff runs carrying the team.
-Leads the franchise in almost every major goaltending category.
-Has been one of the best goalies in the league for his entire career.
-His consistency and reliably elite play elevated the franchise back to relevancy.

And frankly what makes the hate against him most puzzling is how devoted he has been to loving New York and being a Ranger. You don’t always get that with star players. Hank has resigned here every time he could, turned down chance to be traded and has always said its important for him to be a Ranger for his entire career.

Frankly his devotion to the Rangers is the type of stuff that makes fan favorites out of marginal players. Then you throw in the fact that he is objectively the best goalie in franchise history and a sure shot Hall of Famer it is beyond baffling that any smart Ranger fan would not love him.

 

[Hi ImHFNYR]

In a team game it's just plain wrong to evaluate an individual player on if they won a cup without looking at what they have done besides that.

Yes it is an important factor to consider.

No it does not outweigh the rest of his career. Put him on the 93 and 94 teams and they win both cups imo. Put him on the 97 team they win that one too.

Can I prove this? No. Can you prove he couldn't? No. Are there plenty of legitimate reasons to think it's true? I think there are MORE than enough

 

[Glen Sathers Cigar]

People hate him because of his contract but the truth is he’s the one player we’ve given big contracts to maybe ever as a franchise that has completely earned it. Getting mad at Hank for maybe being overpaid by a million (which is laughable me when Price got 10m per plus an extra year and had accomplished less) is ridiculous.

He’s been the franchise for his whole career. He has been an elite player his whole career. And he puts being a Ranger above all else for his whole career, even now when it it could prevent him from getting a Cup. He’s loyal to a fault.

He’s been the heartbeat of the organization after becoming a superstar after being a 7th round draft pick who had to earn every step of the way. I just don’t get how anyone can not love him. He’s objectively the best goalie in franchise history, owns all or most records and he loves NY, the Fans and the organization.