Player Discussion Henrik Lundqvist: Part III

[KirkAlbuquerque]

Maybe we can try him out at 3C?

 

[OrlandK]

Lundqvist does the Rangers a huge favor by retiring and not playing the final year of his contract. No team needs an $8.5 mil albatross of a contract from a backup goaltender. The financial need would be to cover the RFA's and maybe bring Fast back.

Statistically Georgiev's numbers were better than Henrik's last year. Alex with a 17-14-2 WLT record with a 3.04 GAA and .910 Save %. Henrik with a 10-12-3 WLT with a 3.16 GAA and a .905 Save %. Henrik more than less was the Rangers starting goalie through game No. 26 of the 2019-20 season. At that point Georgiev starts 9 of the next 15 and then Shesterkin is called up. The fact is Henrik couldn't keep us above .500 and Alex couldn't get us more than 4 games above .500 and so Igor got his chance. But really Alex had a winning record and Henrik didn't and Henrik didn't have a winning record in 2018-19 either.

I would like to know exactly which goaltenders in our pipeline project better than Georgiev. Perhaps an argument could be made for Tyler Wall but Wall hasn't even played one professional game yet. Huska did not have a particularly good year in his first full season in Hartford. Compare his 11-8-6 WLT with a 3.03 GAA and .894 Save % to Shesterkin's 17-4-3 WLT with a 1.90 GAA and .934 Save %. It's night and day. Olof Lindbom has been injured about 75% of the time since we drafted him in 2018. I don't know how anyone can project for him at all at this point in time. Those are all the goalies in the pipeline.

The answer is no one. Georgiev is quite valuable to the Rangers. Many don't want to admit it because it makes the Lundquist situation that much worse for the team. Georgiev will be the backup and the King will either take the honorable way out and retire or besmirch his reputation a tad and force a buyout that will hurt the Rangers some this year and next.

 

[jay from jersey]

Nonsense. Between the dead cap and Georgiev's raise, the actual savings from buying out Lundqvist are negligible. Him finishing out his contract might prevent us from signing new players, but it won't cost us any players at all.




Again, you portray him as 95% of the way to the glue factory, but his stats were pretty much identical to Georgiev's. Nobody is calling for Hank to start next season.



Again--you can't say his play hurts the team without saying the same thing about Georgiev. Aside from the game or two where they threw him in after sitting him for a month, his play was fine. Not classic Hank, but more than fine for a 1B/back up.



Can you at least pretend to respond to the arguments people are actually making? I said he should be allowed to ride out his contract. That's one more year, not age 50. I not only was all for moving Zuccarello, but I think it's stupid that they didn't trade Kreider as well. I was against trading Stepan a few years back, but no way do I think they should trade for him now.

My points, in case you forgot:

-The team has no real financial need to move Lundqvist before the end of his deal.
-The team gets no real financial benefit by moving Lundqvist before the end of his deal.
-Georgiev is not statistically better than Lundqvist.
-The team has multiple goalies in the pipeline who project to be better than Georgiev.
-Considering the four points above, it would be particularly bad form to embarrass a player of Lundqvist's stature when it isn't necessary.

Ask him if he's fine being the backup in his last year. If he is, move Georgiev for a 2nd rounder or a 3rd+ prospect. If he's not, ask him if he wants to continue playing. If he does, then yeah, see if he's interested in a buyout. If not, work out an arrangement where he can retire and still get his money via a front office position. He's earned the leverage to go out on his own terms within reason.

I wish he would retire. But he won’t. The main problem with hank right now is he will look good for a majority of the game and he will still make difficult saves but then at a crucial point in the game he will let in a goal that should be A routine save that georgi or shesty would make, and you can just see it gut the team. Then it gets in hanks head and the wheels fall off. A couple of years ago he would bounce back from a bad goal but it seems to derail his confidence more so now then it ever did. He still tries to handle the puck which he should never do and that leads to more high danger chances which means more work for him. I just feel like the team plays harder or better when they know shesty or georgi is back there. I don”t know maybe that’s not the right wording. But definitely more confident. There’s a different swagger the rest of the team has between hank and one of the kids. Just my two cents. And that doesn’t show up on a stat sheet but it’s the truth. Its unfortunate but we’re probably going to have to trade georgi for it because I don’t see hank walking away from 8.5 million

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

No one will pay Hank 50% because they know they can get him for less after a buy-out.

In addition, what contender has that much salary cap that they’d pay so much for Hank, given his quality. Despite a low workload Hank sadly didn’t put up starting numbers. Next year he will be a year older as well.

And yes, the UFA goalie market is absolutely flooded and with the flat cap it’ll make Hank at 50% untouchable. Look at someone like Khudobin who you didn’t even mention and he’s superior to the current version of Lundqvist yet he will likely get a modest deal.

We are going to be buying out Lundqvist because we need the cap space this year. It’s our only option IMO.

If MAF has a market, Hank will have one.

Also there is another option thats a better one: Buy out Staal.

 

[The Sweetness]

If MAF has a market, Hank will have one.

Also there is another option thats a better one: Buy out Staal.

I said Hank won’t have a market at 50% salary because with that salary there are so many better options than Hank. And it’s true. If any team wants Hank and he’s open to playing for that team they’ll wait out the buy-out and get him cheap as there’ll be little to no competition.

Hank may decide he wants to play somewhere else as a non-guaranteed starter but he won’t have many options. And it won’t be at 50% of his cap hit.

 

[Harbour Dog]

If MAF has a market, Hank will have one.

Also there is another option thats a better one: Buy out Staal.

Buying out Staal is so obvious that it feels like the entire board just forgets about it for long stretches.

 

[NYSPORTS]

Again, you portray him as 95% of the way to the glue factory, but his stats were pretty much identical to Georgiev's. Nobody is calling for Hank to start next season.

.

Georgiev’s upside has a better shot at improvement when compared to Hank while Hank cannot play the puck and help defenders/forwards out to save his life.

if only Georgiev and Hank were on this roster the starter is Georgiev. In this case, #31 is the starter.

#31 for those amazingly tripping over an S or backward Z

 

[eco's bones]

The answer is no one. Georgiev is quite valuable to the Rangers. Many don't want to admit it because it makes the Lundquist situation that much worse for the team. Georgiev will be the backup and the King will either take the honorable way out and retire or besmirch his reputation a tad and force a buyout that will hurt the Rangers some this year and next.

I don't know if Alex is going to be the backup this coming season but I have the feeling even if he's not--Henrik will either retire or be bought out.

I think with Alex is do you use him in the upcoming draft with the #22 to move up if a player you want is dropping?

If we do that though we're going to need another goaltender and he won't be coming from European free agency because those teams and leagues will already be playing.

Two reasons why Henrik might decide to retire is 1) he knows he's not the No. 1 anymore, he's the backup and 2) he doesn't want to play bubble hockey for what could be a 6/7 month stretch--where it's just back and forth to the rink, the practice rink and the hotel room with side trips for entertainment, activities with your teammates---and away from everyone and everything else......and he's once again the backup goalie. We're watching this now and it's a two month experience for some?--but expand it out a lot longer for what might be an entire season and it might not seem very appealing.

From the Rangers perspective as a team--there's pretty much no doubt about it that this is pretty much a total makeover. Pretty much everyone on the roster have a future in front of them except for Staal, Henrik and maybe Brendan Smith. IMO you can't let the guys who are on a decline stand in the way of where you want to go. Henrik if he were to backup can't have a 10-12-3 record. Being a -2 on WLT means Shesterkin has to be a +15 in the games he plays if the Rangers are going to get to the 95 standings points they're going to need to squeak into the playoffs and they might need another win or two still. That's too much pressure IMO on a first year goalie. It's not going to be a good look if the reason we don't make the playoffs next year is our backup goalie wasn't good enough. I know some people will say--'well we weren't going to win it next year anyway'--that's probably so--still it will matter to players like Zibanejad and Panarin and others who play their hearts out.

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

I don't know if Alex is going to be the backup this coming season but I have the feeling even if he's not--Henrik will either retire or be bought out.

I think with Alex is do you use him in the upcoming draft with the #22 to move up if a player you want is dropping?

If we do that though we're going to need another goaltender and he won't be coming from European free agency because those teams and leagues will already be playing.

Two reasons why Henrik might decide to retire is 1) he knows he's not the No. 1 anymore, he's the backup and 2) he doesn't want to play bubble hockey for what could be a 6/7 month stretch--where it's just back and forth to the rink, the practice rink and the hotel room with side trips for entertainment, activities with your teammates---and away from everyone and everything else......and he's once again the backup goalie. We're watching this now and it's a two month experience for some?--but expand it out a lot longer for what might be an entire season and it might not seem very appealing.

From the Rangers perspective as a team--there's pretty much no doubt about it that this is pretty much a total makeover. Pretty much everyone on the roster have a future in front of them except for Staal, Henrik and maybe Brendan Smith. IMO you can't let the guys who are on a decline stand in the way of where you want to go. Henrik if he were to backup can't have a 10-12-3 record. Being a -2 on WLT means Shesterkin has to be a +15 in the games he plays if the Rangers are going to get to the 95 standings points they're going to need to squeak into the playoffs and they might need another win or two still. That's too much pressure IMO on a first year goalie. It's not going to be a good look if the reason we don't make the playoffs next year is our backup goalie wasn't good enough. I know some people will say--'well we weren't going to win it next year anyway'--that's probably so--still it will matter to players like Zibanejad and Panarin and others who play their hearts out.

I agree with all of this, and will add that my most likely scenario is:

1) Hank leaves – whether by retirement, buyout, or trade, I don't know (though I'd rank them in that order in terms of probability).
2) Georgiev gets traded to a team that could use a potential starter (who will also be on a low-AAV contract with 3 RFA years remaining).
3) The Rangers sign one of the many older journeyman-ish vets available to a cheap 2-year deal to be the backup for '20-'21 and expose to expansion.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

Buying out Staal is so obvious that it feels like the entire board just forgets about it for long stretches.

Buying out anyone at this point in the rebuild when the players we are talking about buying out have one year left is silly to even think about. Let the contract run out and never have to look at it again.

 

[Shesterkybomb]

I agree with all of this, and will add that my most likely scenario is:

1) Hank leaves – whether by retirement, buyout, or trade, I don't know (though I'd rank them in that order in terms of probability).
2) Georgiev gets traded to a team that could use a potential starter (who will also be on a low-AAV contract with 3 RFA years remaining).
3) The Rangers sign one of the many older journeyman-ish vets available to a cheap 2-year deal to be the backup for '20-'21 and expose to expansion.

I doubt we go into the season without one of Hendrik or Georgiev

 

[haohmaru]

#31 for those amazingly tripping over an S or backward Z

I just asked a question and you're being an ass about it now. NYSPOV.

 

[haohmaru]

Two reasons why Henrik might decide to retire is 1) he knows he's not the No. 1 anymore, he's the backup and 2) he doesn't want to play bubble hockey for what could be a 6/7 month stretch--where it's just back and forth to the rink, the practice rink and the hotel room with side trips for entertainment, activities with your teammates---and away from everyone and everything else......and he's once again the backup goalie.

If this were the case then why hasn't he retired already? The above is not going to change and the Rangers have made pretty clear who their starter is.

 

[smoneil]

Lundqvist does the Rangers a huge favor by retiring and not playing the final year of his contract. No team needs an $8.5 mil albatross of a contract from a backup goaltender. The financial need would be to cover the RFA's and maybe bring Fast back.

His contract is not an albatross next season. Buying him out doesn't do much for our cap, particularly once you factor in Georgiev's raise (if you are buying him out to keep Georgiev). Also, while I'd like to bring Fast back, he's already given interviews recently where he spoke of his time with the Rangers in the past tense. I'd be shocked if Fast were back next year.

Statistically Georgiev's numbers were better than Henrik's last year. Alex with a 17-14-2 WLT record with a 3.04 GAA and .910 Save %. Henrik with a 10-12-3 WLT with a 3.16 GAA and a .905 Save %. Henrik more than less was the Rangers starting goalie through game No. 26 of the 2019-20 season. At that point Georgiev starts 9 of the next 15 and then Shesterkin is called up. The fact is Henrik couldn't keep us above .500 and Alex couldn't get us more than 4 games above .500 and so Igor got his chance. But really Alex had a winning record and Henrik didn't and Henrik didn't have a winning record in 2018-19 either.

The difference was negligible, particularly once you take into account the impact of Lundqvist being thrown into games after sitting for nearly a month in some cases. Wins/losses are a team stat, and the team played considerably better hockey from January on.

I would like to know exactly which goaltenders in our pipeline project better than Georgiev. Perhaps an argument could be made for Tyler Wall but Wall hasn't even played one professional game yet. Huska did not have a particularly good year in his first full season in Hartford. Compare his 11-8-6 WLT with a 3.03 GAA and .894 Save % to Shesterkin's 17-4-3 WLT with a 1.90 GAA and .934 Save %. It's night and day. Olof Lindbom has been injured about 75% of the time since we drafted him in 2018. I don't know how anyone can project for him at all at this point in time. Those are all the goalies in the pipeline.

I was thinking of Wall and Lindbom. The latter, while dealing with injury issues this year, has been turning heads in the Swedish league from what I've read. Even got pulled up to one of the top clubs for the post-season (until the post-season was cancelled). Also, not sure why you are comparing Huska to Shesterkin. Georgiev's Hartford numbers, while better than Huska, aren't THAT much better than Huska. But again, I was mainly thinking Wall and Lindbom, both of whom may be ready for backup duty by the 2021/22 season (after Lundqvist's contract runs out). I just don't see that much in Georgiev. Nice kid, but you never know what you are getting out of him.

 

[Callafan24]

I doubt we go into the season without one of Hendrik or Georgiev

Problem: We have three goalies
Solution: Get rid of two of them!

 

[smoneil]

Buying out anyone at this point in the rebuild when the players we are talking about buying out have one year left is silly to even think about. Let the contract run out and never have to look at it again.

Exactly. This team won't compete until it brings in the new blood on the left side of the D. Miller, Hajek, and co are going to need a couple of seasons to get their NHL legs, to say nothing of doing the same up front with Kakko, Laf, Krav, Chytil, Barron, etc. You buy out players if you are competing and need the space, or if that cap is preventing you from keeping a key piece. Neither is true of this team for this coming season. Ride out Smith/Staal/Lundkvist and don't add any more dead cap. At the rate we're adding dead cap, we WILL end up losing someone because of a cap crunch.

 

[Irishguy42]

Problem: We have three goalies
Solution: Get rid of two of them!

I mean, not the worst idea considering that we'd just be looking for a serviceable NHL backup and that can easily be found in UFA.

 

[Kovalev27]

 

[eco's bones]

His contract is not an albatross next season. Buying him out doesn't do much for our cap, particularly once you factor in Georgiev's raise (if you are buying him out to keep Georgiev). Also, while I'd like to bring Fast back, he's already given interviews recently where he spoke of his time with the Rangers in the past tense. I'd be shocked if Fast were back next year.



The difference was negligible, particularly once you take into account the impact of Lundqvist being thrown into games after sitting for nearly a month in some cases. Wins/losses are a team stat, and the team played considerably better hockey from January on.




I was thinking of Wall and Lindbom. The latter, while dealing with injury issues this year, has been turning heads in the Swedish league from what I've read. Even got pulled up to one of the top clubs for the post-season (until the post-season was cancelled). Also, not sure why you are comparing Huska to Shesterkin. Georgiev's Hartford numbers, while better than Huska, aren't THAT much better than Huska. But again, I was mainly thinking Wall and Lindbom, both of whom may be ready for backup duty by the 2021/22 season (after Lundqvist's contract runs out). I just don't see that much in Georgiev. Nice kid, but you never know what you are getting out of him.

Last 3 seasons:

2017-18 Georgiev 4-4-1 (coming up at the end of the season) 3.15 .918 Lundqvist 26-26-7 2.98 3.15 (pre-letter roster until late Feb.)
2018-19 Georgiev 14-13-4 2.91 .914 Lundqvist 18-23-10 3.07 .907
2019-20 Georgiev 17-14-2 3.04 .910 Lundqvist 10-12-3 3.16 .905

They're playing with the same team in front of them. Georgiev since 2017-18 has a record of 35-31-7 Lundqvist has a record 54-61-20 and part of that was pre-letter blow up the team. You throw a younger guy with a better record and a much cheaper contract under the bus for a nearing 40 year old goalie with a worse record and a huge contract. I get the sentimental thing here---Henrik has been the best Rangers player for well over a decade and a sure fire HOF'er but there's also more on the line than his last year and a nostalgic high. The possibility that having subpar backup goaltending might cost the team as a whole a return to the playoffs (which is the time and effort of everyone on the roster) because IMO are margin of error for the upcoming is going to be pretty damn narrow.

Lindbom played in the Allsvenskan league last year for Mora. Played 16 games with a 3.01 GAA and an .893 Save %. He did alright considering but he missed pretty much the entire second half of the season because of injury and the Allsvenskan is a very good Swedish pro league but the SHL is the best Swedish pro league. Tyler Wall had an excellent season for UMass-Lowell. He'll be a rookie pro though......and if there's no AHL or ECHL what happens with him then?

 

[NYSPORTS]

Problem: We have three goalies
Solution: Get rid of two of them!

65-35 split with Wall.

I’m ok with it. Huska if either go down.

 

[Kovalev27]

Hank has been so active on social media in the past. This being his first post since he posted about practicing for the play in series and being excited. Very somber of course. He always posts about how much he loves NYC on 9/11. I’m not reading anything into it that I haven’t already stated

 

[smoneil]

Last 3 seasons:

2017-18 Georgiev 4-4-1 (coming up at the end of the season) 3.15 .918 Lundqvist 26-26-7 2.98 3.15 (pre-letter roster until late Feb.)
2018-19 Georgiev 14-13-4 2.91 .914 Lundqvist 18-23-10 3.07 .907
2019-20 Georgiev 17-14-2 3.04 .910 Lundqvist 10-12-3 3.16 .905

They're playing with the same team in front of them. Georgiev since 2017-18 has a record of 35-31-7 Lundqvist has a record 54-61-20 and part of that was pre-letter blow up the team. You throw a younger guy with a better record and a much cheaper contract under the bus for a nearing 40 year old goalie with a worse record and a huge contract. I get the sentimental thing here---Henrik has been the best Rangers player for well over a decade and a sure fire HOF'er but there's also more on the line than his last year and a nostalgic high. The possibility that having subpar backup goaltending might cost the team as a whole a return to the playoffs (which is the time and effort of everyone on the roster) because IMO are margin of error for the upcoming is going to be pretty damn narrow.

The bold is what I take issue with. This isn't losing Shesterkin to let Lundqvist end on his own terms. It's Georgiev. He's going to be 25 this year, and has never really shown himself to be anything more than the lower end of league average. He could be a starter on a bad team or a decent team with an amazing defense, but I just don't see the superstar goalie any of you are seeing. He was as likely to get shellacked as he was to make the big saves. I also don't see him staying on this team for long even if we DON'T trade him. He'd be easy fodder for the expansion draft, and I'd be surprised if he didn't want an opportunity to start at some point, which he won't get here with Shesterkin in his way. I also don't put as much stock into W/L as you seem to (you brought it up in several posts). The level of competition faced by a backup is usually lower, and you frequently see backups with better stats than the starter as a result. Also, it wouldn't be a much cheaper contract. The dead cap from a buyout added to the raise for Georgiev pretty much negates any cap savings. So it's not about money, and if it IS about a difference in performance, that difference is microscopic.

This isn't a Zucc situation. The team screwed this up once before with Leetch. When a player is as important to the team as Lundqvist has been he earns the right to determine his own fate in the twilight of his career (see Bourque, Ray).

The other thing I take issue with is the italicized. There is literally nothing on the line this year. There may not even be a real season this year. Shesterkin will be the starter from day 1. There are questions about how ready Miller and Laf and Barron will be. There are questions about whether or not Zib and Panarin and Strome can replicate what they did this year. There are questions about potential sophomore slumps or progression for Fox, Kakko, and Lindgren. Questions about whether Chytil can take that next step. All of those questions will factor into whether or not they make the playoffs FAR more than who plays backup goalie: the old guy or the young guy with stats that aren't far off from each other.

Lindbom played in the Allsvenskan league last year for Mora. Played 16 games with a 3.01 GAA and an .893 Save %. He did alright considering but he missed pretty much the entire second half of the season because of injury and the Allsvenskan is a very good Swedish pro league but the SHL is the best Swedish pro league. Tyler Wall had an excellent season for UMass-Lowell. He'll be a rookie pro though......and if there's no AHL or ECHL what happens with him then?

Full disclosure--I've not seen either play. Mainly just read reports on them. The most recent thing I saw on Lindbom was the link below, that indicated that the Rangers were very invested in his development, and that one of the top SHL teams was very impressed with him and got him on loan for their post-season run that ultimately never happened (I pulled that quote and pasted it below):

Exclusive: Rangers prospect Olof Lindbom eyeing new opportunities in the SHL and Liiga - Forever Blueshirts: A site for New York Rangers fanatics

"Lindbom spent a few weeks with SHL powerhouse Färjestad near the end of last season. “Färjestad was one of the favorites to win SHL last year and they thought I played good with Mora so they called me and wanted me to be a part of their playoff run”. It was a situation I personally have not seen happen before, but Lindbom was approached by them and he was sent there on loan in preparation for the SHL playoffs."

My main point there is that there are options--both highly regarded--for backup goalie that may well be ready in a year or two (Wall was drafted one year after Huska and Lindbom one year after Wall). And even if they aren't, FA backup goalies aren't exactly expensive.

I just do not see any logical point if crapping on a team legend solely in order to keep a mediocre backup goalie who--even if we DO keep him--will likely be off the team in the next year or two anyway (due to expansion draft, his desire to be a starter somewhere, or getting supplanted by one of the guys in the pipeline).

 

[Callafan24]

65-35 split with Wall.

I’m ok with it. Huska if either go down.

I'm totally kidding around, but don't we want to win games??

I feel like we either trade AG and let Hank be the backup for his final season in NY, or we keep AG and work with Hank on retirement/trade @ 50% retention.

I'd think the ball is in Hank's court... you can be the backup for 2020-21, you can explore a trade to another team, or you can retire a Ranger.

 

[Leetch3]

65-35 split with Wall.

I’m ok with it. Huska if either go down.

huska is going to play in Slovakia

 

[TominNC]

Which player will the Rangers miss out on by keeping Hank around for his last contract year?

Not being able to sign all the RFA they want to keep?