Player Discussion Henrik Lundqvist: Part III

[Harbour Dog]

If the goalie market is indeed so flooded that we can't even use Georgiev to move up a few spots in the 1st round, or to grab a couple 2nds or a 2nd + 4th or something, THEN some of the arguments for buying out Lundqvist may make sense to me.

But as long as we can get reasonable value for Geo, then we absolutely should, regardless of what Hank decides to do. And buying out Hank and replacing him with a league average (read: worse) backup, doesn't save us nearly enough money this year to justify it.

 

[NYSPORTS]

That makes ZERO sense. So, you're going to pay him to sit, sign Gergiev to a contract (1.25-1.5M/yr), have even less cap space, let ADA or Strome walk because you're paying a player to sit out of spite, etc... ?

The Rangers will buy him out long before they pay him to be in the press box.

made zero sense for him to sit the bench with Shev starting and Georgiev in street clothes waiting to start the next game. The future are kids and despite the entire team besides Staal leaving, he refused to waive his contract and is now in the way. Not moving out Georgiev so an old goalie can sit and watch all season like he did for 18 of the last 19 games.

 

[GoAwayPanarin]

I don't think the goalie market is as flooded as people think.

The guys like Murray are likely to be targets for bubble teams or teams in transition who are hoping to find a goalie to grow with the team. Ditto to the likes of Holtby. This kind of f***s us with moving Georgiev IMO but who knows. I'd still look at Edmonton there.

Contenders won't have the space to get those guys so maybe buying Hank @ 50% and banking on him to find it within himself to have a strong season for 1 year is more cost/risk effective than going after some of those other guys (particularly MAF, who has more term and isn't any better.) Unless someone can snag Lehner on a 1 year deal (I'd think Vegas will try to keep him) or trade for Andersen (which I'm not sure will happen either), what other short term options are out there?

Then again, how many contending teams really need a goalie? Maybe Boston if they move Rask. Thats a landing spot for Hank that I actually think makes sense if the spot opens up.

 

[haohmaru]

made zero sense for him to sit the bench with Shev starting and Georgiev in street clothes waiting to start the next game. The future are kids and despite the entire team besides Staal leaving, he refused to waive his contract and is now in the way. Not moving out Georgiev so an old goalie can sit and watch all season like he did for 18 of the last 19 games.

Not picking on you, but why do you call Shesterkin "Shev"? Is there a "V" somewhere in his name that I'm missing? Or some other reason?

The three goalie thing, for the extent that it went on, is not something I've seen in a lifetime of watching hockey. It was unwieldy. Whatever the Rangers decide to do, that simply cannot go on.

 

[NYRKING30]

Hello everyone. I hope everyone is doing good during this pandemic.

The Rangers buying out Henrik Lundqvist opens up $3M in cap space for 2020-21. That $3M can pay both Alexander Georgiev and Brendan Lemieux. $1.5M-$1.75M for Georgiev. $1.25M for Lemieux. Two year bridge contract for Georgiev who is three years away from group III. The schedule will be crazy next season. The Rangers will need more than one goaltender. Igor Shesterkin had some injuries last season. He hurt his ankle in Winnipeg. The car accident was a freak thing but he did miss time. Broken rib. Fractured rib. He hurt his groin right before the Carolina series.

Hank can go make his own deal somewhere else. Maybe he retires if he can't find a spot. I would not hold it against him if the Rangers bought him out and he retired after not finding another team. The Rangers bought out Chris Drury in 2011 when his knee injury ended his career. He couldn't play anymore. He did not retire. The Rangers bought him out. No hard feelings. Jeff Gorton hired Drury four years later as a player development guy. Promoted to AGM one year later.

The Rangers do not have that much flexibility. The cap is flat at $81.5M. The cap went up $2M for 19-20. The Rangers don't have much money coming off the books. The Rangers had $9.65M in expiring contacts coming off the books in 2019-20 with Kevin Hayes at $5.175M and Mats Zuccarello at $4.5M. The Rangers have numerous group II's with arbitration rights to sign this off-season. Ryan Strome and Tony DeAngelo will come in at $9M-$10M combined. Short term deals. Strome is one year away from Group III. Both of them will file for salary arbitration. Both of them are coming off the best seasons of their careers.

The summer or fall of 2021 is when the Rangers will have more flexibility to change the roster. The Marc Staal contract at $5.7M comes off the books. The Brendan Smith contract at $4.35M comes off the books. That is a combined $10,0500,000.

The Kevin Shattenkirk buyout drops by $4.65M. $6,083,000 to $1,433,333 in 21-22. The Lundqvist buyout drops by $4M. $5.5m to $1.5M. The Ryan Spooner buyout of $300,000 comes off the books.

That is $19M coming off the books for 21-22. The Rangers can use that money for the performance bonuses in 20-21. The Rangers will not have room for Alexis Lafrenière bonuses. Kaapo Kakko. Shesterkin has $2.85M in bonuses. Roll them over. Shesterkin is up for a new deal that off-season. Arbitration eligible.

The Rangers do not have much money remaining after paying their own players. The Rangers already have a ton of buyout money on the books. Fill out the roster. Leave money to operate the team to call-ups. There might not be an AHL season in 20-21. Their season is supposed to start on December 4. There will not be a vaccine ready by then. It will take time for mass distribution of a vaccine say it comes on the market in January.



It was good checking in to share my thoughts. Everyone take care. Wear a mask.

Nice having you back man! Hope all is well!

 

[NYSPORTS]

Not picking on you, but why do you call Shesterkin "Shev"? Is there a "V" somewhere in his name that I'm missing? Or some other reason?

The three goalie thing, for the extent that it went on, is not something I've seen in a lifetime of watching hockey. It was unwieldy. Whatever the Rangers decide to do, that simply cannot go on.

who knows? So many Russians have a V i likely just put it there.

 

[Kovalev27]

If the goalie market is indeed so flooded that we can't even use Georgiev to move up a few spots in the 1st round, or to grab a couple 2nds or a 2nd + 4th or something, THEN some of the arguments for buying out Lundqvist may make sense to me.

But as long as we can get reasonable value for Geo, then we absolutely should, regardless of what Hank decides to do. And buying out Hank and replacing him with a league average (read: worse) backup, doesn't save us nearly enough money this year to justify it.

I don’t see anything that suggests we’re seriously trying to move Georgiev and this offseason is so full of goalies we’d literally get very little for him

I’m fairly certain we want a Shesterkin/Georgiev tandem

 

[Doctyl]

Shevsterknikov

 

[smoneil]

made zero sense for him to sit the bench with Shev starting and Georgiev in street clothes waiting to start the next game. The future are kids and despite the entire team besides Staal leaving, he refused to waive his contract and is now in the way. Not moving out Georgiev so an old goalie can sit and watch all season like he did for 18 of the last 19 games.

Way too many people disrespecting Lundqvist like this. He is literally one of the top Rangers of all time, and the best homegrown player since Brian Leetch. Even IF there was a compelling need to get rid of him this summer (ie: huge cap savings or a team in a window of competing), it would be hard to disrespect a player of his stature. But there's no reason. The team isn't competing next season. The season will be shortened to begin with because of the virus. The new star goalie idolizes him. And we're unceremoniously dumping him to...hold on to a mediocre goalie prospect? Geo has replacements (plural) on the way who will almost certainly relegate him to Hartford in a year or two. Move Georgiev, let Henrik ride off into the sunset with one last year, and come out of that year that much closer to being ready to compete for the Cup.

And for everyone who goes on and on about it being a business and you can't pay any attention to emotions etc etc--hurting Lundqvist's feelings isn't even the biggest concern here. If the team shits on Lundqvist's legacy by needlessly throwing him out the door "Jazz in Fresh Prince" style, you can bet a whole locker room full of young players are going to be watching that and paying attention. Next time we want/need a high end kid to sign a team friendly bridge? "No sir, this is a business." Next time a player deservedly wants to be paid and is offered a one year deal for <a million because that's literally all the cap we have? "No sir, trade me. This is a business." We want players to go 150% for the team, but then want to discard them the second the math doesn't work. Yes, it's a business, but it's a business that only works when the employees push themselves beyond the limit and sacrifice. You don't do that in ANY business if you feel like your employer doesn't give two f***s about what you've done for them.

And by the by, that "old goalie" had nearly identical stats to Georgiev this year, despite being jerked around in the rotation.

 

[NYSPORTS]

Way too many people disrespecting Lundqvist .

i’m not sentimental

 

[TominNC]

Many players don't play their whole career with one team. Players know it's a business. Are they all going to lineup to take lower salaries so the Rangers can afford Hank's 8.5 next season? Time to move on and not have to worry all year about "disrespecting" Hank if he sits for awhile, etc.

 

[bobbop]

The goalie market is flooded with older goaltenders, many carrying sIgnificant baggage. There are a couple of jewels (Lehner, Markstrom) who will require big contracts but as for young goaltenders with runway, it’s Murray and Georgiev. Unless a team simply wants to protect their own young goaltender, there are some guys who may end up completely out of work next year.

 

[smoneil]

i’m not sentimental

Right. Of course not. Nobody in sports is sentimental. That's why we retire numbers and name awards after people and buy jerseys of certain players and prize the game-worn ones above anything else etc etc etc. Lie to yourself if you want, but sentiment is the engine that drives professional sports. The worst teams we've ever had were not bad because they lacked talent. They were bad because they lacked passion, pride, and sentiment. In short, the darkest days in Ranger land were the ones where the players treated it all like a business. The players will follow where the front office leads. Ending the career of one of the best players in team history with shame--particularly because there is NO need to do so--will not go unnoticed by the rest of the players. Guaranteed.

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Not picking on you, but why do you call Shesterkin "Shev"? Is there a "V" somewhere in his name that I'm missing? Or some other reason?

The three goalie thing, for the extent that it went on, is not something I've seen in a lifetime of watching hockey. It was unwieldy. Whatever the Rangers decide to do, that simply cannot go on.

I've seen people abbreviate Alexis Lafreniere to AF so who knows...

 

[Siddi]

Many players don't play their whole career with one team. Players know it's a business. Are they all going to lineup to take lower salaries so the Rangers can afford Hank's 8.5 next season? Time to move on and not have to worry all year about "disrespecting" Hank if he sits for awhile, etc.

Which player will the Rangers miss out on by keeping Hank around for his last contract year?

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

Which player will the Rangers miss out on by keeping Hank around for his last contract year?

DeAngelo

 

[NYSPORTS]

Right. Of course not. Nobody in sports is sentimental. That's why we retire numbers and name awards after people and buy jerseys of certain players and prize the game-worn ones above anything else etc etc etc. Lie to yourself if you want, but sentiment is the engine that drives professional sports. The worst teams we've ever had were not bad because they lacked talent. They were bad because they lacked passion, pride, and sentiment. In short, the darkest days in Ranger land were the ones where the players treated it all like a business. The players will follow where the front office leads. Ending the career of one of the best players in team history with shame--particularly because there is NO need to do so--will not go unnoticed by the rest of the players. Guaranteed.

Let’s not ignore father time and direction of the organization. The entire roster besides Hank and Staal has been turned over. Unlike perhaps the defense, there is a replacement for Hank. Hank himself decided not to waive his NTC which is his right, but enough is enough. No different than Eli Manning. Some fans can’t come to grips with it’s over and for Hank, it’s over.

Love celebrating and thanking athletes for their years and the memories yet have no sympathy for the athlete which hangs on beyond their years which hurts the team. Hank’s anchor of a contract and poor play hurts the team. Hank was coddled and allowed to dress while two kids alternated from goal to street clothes around him.

Sure, there are some sentimental fans who want to keep Hank, like Eli, until he’s 50 years old. These fans would have kept Zuccarello around and maybe offer up trade for Stepan today. It’s a rebuild and it’s over. Time to get out of the way for the next generation of Rangers hockey and memories.

 

[NYSPORTS]

I've seen people abbreviate Alexis Lafreniere to AF so who knows...

and fans used to call Vanbiesbrouck “beezer” despite no Z.
Who cares?

 

[Amazing Kreiderman]

and fans used to call Vanbiesbrouck “beezer” despite no Z.
Who cares?

Okay NJS

 

[NYSPORTS]

Okay NJS

 

[smoneil]

DeAngelo

Nonsense. Between the dead cap and Georgiev's raise, the actual savings from buying out Lundqvist are negligible. Him finishing out his contract might prevent us from signing new players, but it won't cost us any players at all.

Let’s not ignore father time and direction of the organization. The entire roster besides Hank and Staal has been turned over. Unlike perhaps the defense, there is a replacement for Hank. Hank himself decided not to waive his NTC which is his right, but enough is enough. No different than Eli Manning. Some fans can’t come to grips with it’s over and for Hank, it’s over.

Again, you portray him as 95% of the way to the glue factory, but his stats were pretty much identical to Georgiev's. Nobody is calling for Hank to start next season.

Love celebrating and thanking athletes for their years and the memories yet have no sympathy for the athlete which hangs on beyond their years which hurts the team. Hank’s anchor of a contract and poor play hurts the team. Hank was coddled and allowed to dress while two kids alternated from goal to street clothes around him.

Again--you can't say his play hurts the team without saying the same thing about Georgiev. Aside from the game or two where they threw him in after sitting him for a month, his play was fine. Not classic Hank, but more than fine for a 1B/back up.

Sure, there are some sentimental fans who want to keep Hank, like Eli, until he’s 50 years old. These fans would have kept Zuccarello around and maybe offer up trade for Stepan today. It’s a rebuild and it’s over. Time to get out of the way for the next generation of Rangers hockey and memories.

Can you at least pretend to respond to the arguments people are actually making? I said he should be allowed to ride out his contract. That's one more year, not age 50. I not only was all for moving Zuccarello, but I think it's stupid that they didn't trade Kreider as well. I was against trading Stepan a few years back, but no way do I think they should trade for him now.

My points, in case you forgot:

-The team has no real financial need to move Lundqvist before the end of his deal.
-The team gets no real financial benefit by moving Lundqvist before the end of his deal.
-Georgiev is not statistically better than Lundqvist.
-The team has multiple goalies in the pipeline who project to be better than Georgiev.
-Considering the four points above, it would be particularly bad form to embarrass a player of Lundqvist's stature when it isn't necessary.

Ask him if he's fine being the backup in his last year. If he is, move Georgiev for a 2nd rounder or a 3rd+ prospect. If he's not, ask him if he wants to continue playing. If he does, then yeah, see if he's interested in a buyout. If not, work out an arrangement where he can retire and still get his money via a front office position. He's earned the leverage to go out on his own terms within reason.

 

[OrlandK]

Which player will the Rangers miss out on by keeping Hank around for his last contract year?

Jesper Fast

 

[eco's bones]

Hello everyone. I hope everyone is doing good during this pandemic.

The Rangers buying out Henrik Lundqvist opens up $3M in cap space for 2020-21. That $3M can pay both Alexander Georgiev and Brendan Lemieux. $1.5M-$1.75M for Georgiev. $1.25M for Lemieux. Two year bridge contract for Georgiev who is three years away from group III. The schedule will be crazy next season. The Rangers will need more than one goaltender. Igor Shesterkin had some injuries last season. He hurt his ankle in Winnipeg. The car accident was a freak thing but he did miss time. Broken rib. Fractured rib. He hurt his groin right before the Carolina series.

Hank can go make his own deal somewhere else. Maybe he retires if he can't find a spot. I would not hold it against him if the Rangers bought him out and he retired after not finding another team. The Rangers bought out Chris Drury in 2011 when his knee injury ended his career. He couldn't play anymore. He did not retire. The Rangers bought him out. No hard feelings. Jeff Gorton hired Drury four years later as a player development guy. Promoted to AGM one year later.

The Rangers do not have that much flexibility. The cap is flat at $81.5M. The cap went up $2M for 19-20. The Rangers don't have much money coming off the books. The Rangers had $9.65M in expiring contacts coming off the books in 2019-20 with Kevin Hayes at $5.175M and Mats Zuccarello at $4.5M. The Rangers have numerous group II's with arbitration rights to sign this off-season. Ryan Strome and Tony DeAngelo will come in at $9M-$10M combined. Short term deals. Strome is one year away from Group III. Both of them will file for salary arbitration. Both of them are coming off the best seasons of their careers.

The summer or fall of 2021 is when the Rangers will have more flexibility to change the roster. The Marc Staal contract at $5.7M comes off the books. The Brendan Smith contract at $4.35M comes off the books. That is a combined $10,0500,000.

The Kevin Shattenkirk buyout drops by $4.65M. $6,083,000 to $1,433,333 in 21-22. The Lundqvist buyout drops by $4M. $5.5m to $1.5M. The Ryan Spooner buyout of $300,000 comes off the books.

That is $19M coming off the books for 21-22. The Rangers can use that money for the performance bonuses in 20-21. The Rangers will not have room for Alexis Lafrenière bonuses. Kaapo Kakko. Shesterkin has $2.85M in bonuses. Roll them over. Shesterkin is up for a new deal that off-season. Arbitration eligible.

The Rangers do not have much money remaining after paying their own players. The Rangers already have a ton of buyout money on the books. Fill out the roster. Leave money to operate the team to call-ups. There might not be an AHL season in 20-21. Their season is supposed to start on December 4. There will not be a vaccine ready by then. It will take time for mass distribution of a vaccine say it comes on the market in January.



It was good checking in to share my thoughts. Everyone take care. Wear a mask.

You've been hiding. Probably not a bad idea and I concur with wearing a mask.

Generally I agree with most all of your post--I think Igor might have had a minor injury in Hartford as well. I seem to remember something like that. We will have to have a good backup goalie and I don't think Henrik can carry his share of the load anymore and I'm not sure that he's going to want to be playing bubble hockey again because if the season starts up again in December that's what we're going to be doing and that is one short turnaround. Personally I'm thinking mid-January at the earliest and prepare for a whole season worth of bubble hockey because there aren't any guarantees on any vaccinations nor is there enough compliance with safety protocols in the United States so far to justify United States based teams playing in their own (empty) rinks and traveling around the country to other locations. All it takes is for one player to spread it through his own team and that team is out of action for a while--maybe even a long while.

 

[The Sweetness]

I don't think the goalie market is as flooded as people think.

The guys like Murray are likely to be targets for bubble teams or teams in transition who are hoping to find a goalie to grow with the team. Ditto to the likes of Holtby. This kind of f***s us with moving Georgiev IMO but who knows. I'd still look at Edmonton there.

Contenders won't have the space to get those guys so maybe buying Hank @ 50% and banking on him to find it within himself to have a strong season for 1 year is more cost/risk effective than going after some of those other guys (particularly MAF, who has more term and isn't any better.) Unless someone can snag Lehner on a 1 year deal (I'd think Vegas will try to keep him) or trade for Andersen (which I'm not sure will happen either), what other short term options are out there?

Then again, how many contending teams really need a goalie? Maybe Boston if they move Rask. Thats a landing spot for Hank that I actually think makes sense if the spot opens up.

No one will pay Hank 50% because they know they can get him for less after a buy-out.

In addition, what contender has that much salary cap that they’d pay so much for Hank, given his quality. Despite a low workload Hank sadly didn’t put up starting numbers. Next year he will be a year older as well.

And yes, the UFA goalie market is absolutely flooded and with the flat cap it’ll make Hank at 50% untouchable. Look at someone like Khudobin who you didn’t even mention and he’s superior to the current version of Lundqvist yet he will likely get a modest deal.

We are going to be buying out Lundqvist because we need the cap space this year. It’s our only option IMO.

 

[eco's bones]

Nonsense. Between the dead cap and Georgiev's raise, the actual savings from buying out Lundqvist are negligible. Him finishing out his contract might prevent us from signing new players, but it won't cost us any players at all.




Again, you portray him as 95% of the way to the glue factory, but his stats were pretty much identical to Georgiev's. Nobody is calling for Hank to start next season.



Again--you can't say his play hurts the team without saying the same thing about Georgiev. Aside from the game or two where they threw him in after sitting him for a month, his play was fine. Not classic Hank, but more than fine for a 1B/back up.



Can you at least pretend to respond to the arguments people are actually making? I said he should be allowed to ride out his contract. That's one more year, not age 50. I not only was all for moving Zuccarello, but I think it's stupid that they didn't trade Kreider as well. I was against trading Stepan a few years back, but no way do I think they should trade for him now.

My points, in case you forgot:

-The team has no real financial need to move Lundqvist before the end of his deal.
-The team gets no real financial benefit by moving Lundqvist before the end of his deal.
-Georgiev is not statistically better than Lundqvist.
-The team has multiple goalies in the pipeline who project to be better than Georgiev.
-Considering the four points above, it would be particularly bad form to embarrass a player of Lundqvist's stature when it isn't necessary.

Ask him if he's fine being the backup in his last year. If he is, move Georgiev for a 2nd rounder or a 3rd+ prospect. If he's not, ask him if he wants to continue playing. If he does, then yeah, see if he's interested in a buyout. If not, work out an arrangement where he can retire and still get his money via a front office position. He's earned the leverage to go out on his own terms within reason.

Lundqvist does the Rangers a huge favor by retiring and not playing the final year of his contract. No team needs an $8.5 mil albatross of a contract from a backup goaltender. The financial need would be to cover the RFA's and maybe bring Fast back.

Statistically Georgiev's numbers were better than Henrik's last year. Alex with a 17-14-2 WLT record with a 3.04 GAA and .910 Save %. Henrik with a 10-12-3 WLT with a 3.16 GAA and a .905 Save %. Henrik more than less was the Rangers starting goalie through game No. 26 of the 2019-20 season. At that point Georgiev starts 9 of the next 15 and then Shesterkin is called up. The fact is Henrik couldn't keep us above .500 and Alex couldn't get us more than 4 games above .500 and so Igor got his chance. But really Alex had a winning record and Henrik didn't and Henrik didn't have a winning record in 2018-19 either.

I would like to know exactly which goaltenders in our pipeline project better than Georgiev. Perhaps an argument could be made for Tyler Wall but Wall hasn't even played one professional game yet. Huska did not have a particularly good year in his first full season in Hartford. Compare his 11-8-6 WLT with a 3.03 GAA and .894 Save % to Shesterkin's 17-4-3 WLT with a 1.90 GAA and .934 Save %. It's night and day. Olof Lindbom has been injured about 75% of the time since we drafted him in 2018. I don't know how anyone can project for him at all at this point in time. Those are all the goalies in the pipeline.