Player Discussion: Heinola Thread

[TS Quint]

Quinn Hughes, 5'10", 180
Adam Fox, 5'11", 180

Heinola might not make it, but it's not because of his size. I'm not sure why anyone would be against giving him 20 games to see what you have here.

The Jets don’t need the fans to see what they have in Heinola. They have been watching him for probably over 7 years, they know what they have.

 

[Jet]

That's what we're all waiting for - I look forward to seeing how Ville's' big brain handles the walls / corners.
Not sure how Stan ended up in your argument - these guys have very differing strengths and they've been discussed at length.
Usually it's Slow Stan not Dumb Stan - but I know you had to make your point . . .

Any chance to bash our black sheep.

I feel really fortunate that though we might be lacking a wee bit of top end talent on d we have some really strong depth. I'm sure we will need it by the time the season is done.

I also hope that Ville makes it impossible to not play him. Hell I hope he usurps Sammy and becomes the second pair D. Imagine if he and Miller mesh well and push 54 and 4 to the third pair. That would be 3 pairs with an offensive and defensive guy.

 

[cneely]

The Jets don’t need the fans to see what they have in Heinola. They have been watching him for probably over 7 years, they know what they have.

And what they have, in my opinion, is better than 3 or 4 of the guys that play every night.

 

[Jet]

PK is still an important role. Who steps up with Fleury out? Heinola? Morrissey? Miller? This is the one I'll be watching.

Id love it to be Morrissey but I dont want to wear the guy out

 

[cneely]

You think he’s Makar? What a terrible comparison.

Yes it’s possible to overcome size. But no matter how you look at it you have to overcome it. It is an advantage being bigger and stronger.

It's not an advantage to be faster and more skilled?

 

[Jet]

Both related to the same injury and the set back wasn't huge, the Jets' defense were just insanely healthy.

They are indeed 2 setbacks not one, and you can also include the year he had a spot waiting for him and was just atrocious in TC and exy and the year he probably did well enough to stick but was forced down due to vet depth.

Ville has had a very challenging pro career to this point. He needs to stay healthy and show what he can do at this level.

The Jets don’t need the fans to see what they have in Heinola. They have been watching him for probably over 7 years, they know what they have.

Lol what? How many nhl games? How many playoff games?

We haven't seen shit yet.

 

[Buffdog]

Quinn Hughes, 5'10", 180
Adam Fox, 5'11", 180

Heinola might not make it, but it's not because of his size. I'm not sure why anyone would be against giving him 20 games to see what you have here.

The smaller the player, the more exceptional the rest of their game needs to be. But that goes for all attributes

Hopefully Heinola is fully healthy and the org gives him a chance to show what he can do in the show. That said, they've watched every single shift of his in the AHL and every single rep of him practicing vs NHLers, so they already have an idea of how he should translate his game to the big team

 

[TS Quint]

And what they have, in my opinion, is better than 3 or 4 of the guys that play every night.

And in my opinion the Jets are better at evaluating than you. Saying he is better than 3 or 4 of the Jets defensemen is hyperbole at best. People get so upset over all these guys who “never get their chance” but where are they now? Where is the list of all these guys moving on to bigger better things? Jets have done pretty well in evaluating their players.

I hope little Megamind does well. But so far he hasn’t been able to defend. If he can’t turn the puck over he can’t play. He should get his chance this year to play, get comfortable and stop making every pass 90 feet as well. I can’t wait to see how he does.

They are indeed 2 setbacks not one, and you can also include the year he had a spot waiting for him and was just atrocious in TC and exy and the year he probably did well enough to stick but was forced down due to vet depth.

Ville has had a very challenging pro career to this point. He needs to stay healthy and show what he can do at this level.


Lol what? How many nhl games? How many playoff games?

We haven't seen shit yet.

The Jets don’t need to see him play 200 NHL games to know what they have. They can see what they have in the AHL.

 

[Jet]

And in my opinion the Jets are better at evaluating than you. Saying he is better than 3 or 4 of the Jets defensemen is hyperbole at best. People get so upset over all these guys who “never get their chance” but where are they now? Where is the list of all these guys moving on to bigger better things? Jets have done pretty well in evaluating their players.

I hope little Megamind does well. But so far he hasn’t been able to defend. If he can’t turn the puck over he can’t play. He should get his chance this year to play, get comfortable and stop making every pass 90 feet as well. I can’t wait to see how he does.


The Jets don’t need to see him play 200 NHL games to know what they have. They can see what they have in the AHL.

I agree wth your top comment but not bottom.

They might not need to see 200 games but they surely need to see him in a long run of healthy nhl play to properly assess him. Hopefully he gets that coming up here so we can decide what we need to do at the tdl.

 

[Buffdog]

And what they have, in my opinion, is better than 3 or 4 of the guys that play every night.

What are you basing that on?

 

[DRW204]

Dude is only 5'11 180sonething. not going to cut it in the modern nhl - bye bye tiny heiny

Edit: Oh wait thats cale makars stats. My bad.

now compare their shot, speed, offensive skill sets, puck-handling, creativity, anything else related to playing hockey.

The Jets don’t need to see him play 200 NHL games to know what they have. They can see what they have in the AHL.

i find it difficult calling heinola a prospect still (not sure if we are or not) so he may not fully be in this category. but it may be another case of HFboards seeing a few AHL highlight clips over the years, and thinking they know more than the team that watches these prospects, and analyze what they have every single day. comparing him to makar and hughes on the other page, what the f*** are people on?

pre-season all these prospect thumpers on here were projecting some ridiculous youth movement b/c bowness is gone... how many consecutive years of posting out-to-lunch take will it take for some on here to reevaluate how they project prospects, or how competitive NHL teams operate? not a single prospect made the team & their #1. maybe just maaaybe the Jets know what they have and what's best to win games.

 

[cneely]

What are you basing that on?

Just his body of work in various minor leagues and my opinion. I think there is a place in the NHL for large physical defencemen like Stanley as well as more skilled guys like Heinola.

 

[Buffdog]

Just his body of work in various minor leagues and my opinion. I think there is a place in the NHL for large physical defencemen like Stanley as well as more skilled guys like Heinola.

Fair enough. I'll reserve judgement as to whether he's a better option than what we have until I see a body of his work (while being mindful that he'll need time to get his legs and brain upto NHL speed)

I'm hoping you're right

 

[cneely]

And in my opinion the Jets are better at evaluating than you. Saying he is better than 3 or 4 of the Jets defensemen is hyperbole at best. People get so upset over all these guys who “never get their chance” but where are they now? Where is the list of all these guys moving on to bigger better things? Jets have done pretty well in evaluating their players.

I hope little Megamind does well. But so far he hasn’t been able to defend. If he can’t turn the puck over he can’t play. He should get his chance this year to play, get comfortable and stop making every pass 90 feet as well. I can’t wait to see how he does.


The Jets don’t need to see him play 200 NHL games to know what they have. They can see what they have in the AHL.

I would assume they are better than evaluation than me, and Arniel is on the record saying he wants this player in the NHL.

Defending is important, no doubt, but recently, defencemen like the aforementioned Makar, Fox, Hughes, and guys like Hutson are also demonstrating that there is value in getting offence from the blue line as well.

They can see what they have in the AHL. He's been one of the best defencemen in that league for several years now.

 

[DRW204]

I would assume they are better than evaluation than me, and Arniel is on the record saying he wants this player in the NHL.

Defending is important, no doubt, but recently, defencemen like the aforementioned Makar, Fox, Hughes, and guys like Hutson are also demonstrating that there is value in getting offence from the blue line as well.

They can see what they have in the AHL. He's been one of the best defencemen in that league for several years now.

when heinola is a PPG dman/scoring 20+ goals, flirting with Norris' in the case of makar, fox or hughes, you can make that comparison & care a bit less for defending.

the Jets have 4 Defenseman in the top-100 (actually top-84) in NHL D scoring, the most by 1 team in the league is 5. they are getting offensive value.

 

[TS Quint]

I agree wth your top comment but not bottom.

They might not need to see 200 games but they surely need to see him in a long run of healthy nhl play to properly assess him. Hopefully he gets that coming up here so we can decide what we need to do at the tdl.

I doubt at the TDL the Jets are hoping for another small PP specialist. It’s pretty obvious this defense needs size and toughness. That’s what wins in the playoffs. I’m not saying they shouldn’t give him every opportunity but if he can’t defend, he can’t play. This team is defense first. So far in the small sample he hasn’t been good at defending and his reputation in what people call transition hasn’t been good.

I’m not making a final judgement, I want to see if he can be better than what he has been. If he is going to play he needs to be real good. He’s playing on the left side competing with Morrissey and Samberg. Morrissey is a top defenseman in the league and Samberg brings what this team needs defensively, size and strength. People want Heinola on the PP? Ok, he’s not touching a second of Morrissey’s PP time. I don’t know how you measure PP effectiveness but P/60 on the PP Pionk is at 4.49 and Morrissey is 4.96. Pionk isn’t far of and the PP is currently humming.

It's not an advantage to be faster and more skilled?

Faster than what? More skilled at what? Makar?

 

[TS Quint]

Lol what? How many nhl games? How many playoff games?

We haven't seen shit yet.

I was referring to the Jets, not fans. The Jets professionally evaluate players at the AHL level and seem to be quite good at it.

 

[Adam da bomb]

Fair enough. I'll reserve judgement as to whether he's a better option than what we have until I see a body of his work (while being mindful that he'll need time to get his legs and brain upto NHL speed)

I'm hoping you're right

We all want cheap improvements. To not root for Heinola would be silly, but, like you also holding judgement.

I would assume they are better than evaluation than me, and Arniel is on the record saying he wants this player in the NHL.

Defending is important, no doubt, but recently, defencemen like the aforementioned Makar, Fox, Hughes, and guys like Hutson are also demonstrating that there is value in getting offence from the blue line as well.

They can see what they have in the AHL. He's been one of the best defencemen in that league for several years now.

Depending on team need. We already get a lot of offence from mo and Pionk unlike those other D you mentioned who don’t have other offensive D. So our needs may be different and I think more about a player who can hold the Fort.

 

[cneely]

Faster than what? More skilled at what? Makar?

Stanley? Fleury? MIller?

 

[TS Quint]

now compare their shot, speed, offensive skill sets, puck-handling, creativity, anything else related to playing hockey.


i find it difficult calling heinola a prospect still (not sure if we are or not) so he may not fully be in this category. but it may be another case of HFboards seeing a few AHL highlight clips over the years, and thinking they know more than the team that watches these prospects, and analyze what they have every single day. comparing him to makar and hughes on the other page, what the f*** are people on?

pre-season all these prospect thumpers on here were projecting some ridiculous youth movement b/c bowness is gone... how many consecutive years of posting out-to-lunch take will it take for some on here to reevaluate how they project prospects, or how competitive NHL teams operate? not a single prospect made the team & their #1. maybe just maaaybe the Jets know what they have and what's best to win games.

The simultaneous hate of how Bowness handled young players and the love of how young players like Robertson, Hintz and Heiskenen were intergraded into the Stars line up was a personal favorite of mine.

People get excited over AHL stats. FREE NIKU! Nomsayin? Then they get excited in the preseason when very good AHL players play very good against AHL players. But in the AHL you can be very successful with a small package of high skill. In the NHL everyone has that. You need more than just a couple good tools.

 

[cneely]

when heinola is a PPG dman/scoring 20+ goals, flirting with Norris' in the case of makar, fox or hughes, you can make that comparison & care a bit less for defending.

the Jets have 4 Defenseman in the top-100 (actually top-84) in NHL D scoring, the most by 1 team in the league is 5. they are getting offensive value.

So skilled players have no value unless they are the best in the league at their position?

I don't expect those 4 to maintain their pace, and I certainly think Heinola is an offensive upgrade on guys like Samberg.

In today's NHL, I'm honestly surprised at the hesitancy to add more speed and skill.

Depending on team need. We already get a lot of offence from mo and Pionk unlike those other D you mentioned who don’t have other offensive D. So our needs may be different and I think more about a player who can hold the Fort.

I think the loss to the Avs last year exposed the Jets lack of speed and skill.

I have a lot of time for a player like Dillon, but today's league is about skill.

 

[TS Quint]

I would assume they are better than evaluation than me, and Arniel is on the record saying he wants this player in the NHL.

Defending is important, no doubt, but recently, defencemen like the aforementioned Makar, Fox, Hughes, and guys like Hutson are also demonstrating that there is value in getting offence from the blue line as well.

They can see what they have in the AHL. He's been one of the best defencemen in that league for several years now.

But those guys can defend and have proven that over and over. Morrissey came into the league very good at defending. It’s not that the size of the player prohibits them from defending but they need to have that skill. Heinola can’t just stand between the puck and the net and let them set up like it’s a PP, he needs to turn the puck over. I’ll bet we see a lot of pucks in Heinola’s corner as soon as he gets into the line up. We will see pretty quickly where he is.

I’m a Jet fan so I hope you are 100% right, but at this point I think he has a lot to prove.

 

[Jet]

Defending is important, no doubt, but recently, defencemen like the aforementioned Makar, Fox, Hughes, and guys like Hutson are also demonstrating that there is value in getting offence from the blue line as well.

This isn't directed at you, but it's funny that people will make that concession for Heinola, but not Pionk. The big difference between the two is that Pionk has a large body of offensive competence in the NHL, and Heinola does not.

Yet Heinola is already being proclaimed to be better than, well, any NHL defenseman. He should be, and I hope to hell he is, but until proves he is, he isn't.

 

[cneely]

This isn't directed at you, but it's funny that people will make that concession for Heinola, but not Pionk. The big difference between the two is that Pionk has a large body of offensive competence in the NHL, and Heinola does not.

Yet Heinola is already being proclaimed to be better than, well, any NHL defenseman. He should be, and I hope to hell he is, but until proves he is, he isn't.

Funny you should compare him to Pionk, they are actually quite similar. Pionk seems to be more physical, but probably grew into that. He broke into the NHL when he was 22 after spending 48 games in the AHL where he put up 17 points (0.35 PPG) and was a -9 (I know, I hate plus / minus too, but no advanced stats for AHL).

Heinola has put up 64 points in his last 89 AHL games at roughly the same age (0.72 PPG) and was a plus 26.

No one is proclaiming anything. I think many are of the opinion that he's played well enough pre-injury to deserve a shot. He's being judged by his shortcomings at an age when a guy like Pionk was still in college.

 

[Jet]

Funny you should compare him to Pionk, they are actually quite similar. Pionk seems to be more physical, but probably grew into that. He broke into the NHL when he was 22 after spending 48 games in the AHL where he put up 17 points (0.35 PPG) and was a -9 (I know, I hate plus / minus too, but no advanced stats for AHL).

Heinola has put up 64 points in his last 89 AHL games at roughly the same age (0.72 PPG) and was a plus 26.

No one is proclaiming anything. I think many are of the opinion that he's played well enough pre-injury to deserve a shot. He's being judged by his shortcomings at an age when a guy like Pionk was still in college.

Not too much to argue here but if you look. Yes indeed people are proclaiming Ville to be better than 3 of our options (Fleury, Stanley and Coghlan I'm guessing).

It's a fairly safe guess, but until it happens, that's all it is.