This is a good observation but can be something of a slippery slope... .I think there is a distinction between 'adding layers and enhancing development' and 'attempting to completely remold the player' and that Maurice comes close to blurring that distinction in his search for particular role players. I'm thinking here of the efforts to completely remake Vesalainen from his natural strengths (playmaker/shooter admittedly on more spacious international ice) to a checking, power-forward working the boardsin the NHL In doing so, Ves has seemingly forgotten how to use his natural offensive strengths.
Player Discussion: Heinola Thread
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This is a good observation but can be something of a slippery slope... .I think there is a distinction between 'adding layers and enhancing development' and 'attempting to completely remold the player' and that Maurice comes close to blurring that distinction in his search for particular role players. I'm thinking here of the efforts to completely remake Vesalainen from his natural strengths (playmaker/shooter admittedly on more spacious international ice) to a checking, power-forward working the boardsin the NHL In doing so, Ves has seemingly forgotten how to use his natural offensive strengths.
voyageur
Grizzled vet
- Jul 10, 2011
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The only way you get depth in the NHL is by ELCs. You're not going to pass a player of those caliber players through waivers. So it's nice to say bring these guys up, let em have it, but really what happens when the injury bug or the Covid bug hits? Because the layers of players behind them are all 2nd tier.
If we went by TC the only guy who really won a spot is Gustafsson. I thought Perfetti, was ok, but looked too timid for the NHL. I thought Heinola looked off. So you keep their game growing. And these players can grow in the AHL because they can take up all the key ice times. Furthermore they get more ice time. I'm not expecting Heinola to be out in any late game situations, nor currently with the players we have would I expect Heinola to get PP time. Wasting a year of Perfetti's contract to get mediocre results is bad management.
I think a lot of fans have a hard time grasping the development side of draft and development.
True but if Ves stays as a playmaker shooter, we don't have a spot for him as he is not a top 6 player on our team.
I think it will come. Armia went through very much the same development curve from pretty much the same starting point. To be a pure play maker/shooter in the NHL you have to have an immense talent for it otherwise you will never be an effective enough player.
Noted. Ves is an interesting case study as it didn't appear as though his natural game was translating quickly to NA. I have to wonder if this was the plan all along or if they felt they needed to pivot and go to plan B.
I am starting to see more from Ves in terms if getting to those sweet spots to use his shot. I guess we will have to see if he turns into a good player given the new template
This is a really good post. Most of these young guys could come up and show moments of real skill and will have games where they look lost. Prospects tend to be very inconsistent early on, and burning contract years for them to develop into NHL players while in the NHL is bad management when they can get the big minutes in all situations in the minors and jump to the NHL when they are ready.
Thanks for that!
I’ll always remember around the trade deadline, one GM called him the best prospect north of the border.
I clearly remember a couple of instances in Heinola’s few NHL games, where he was very effective at boxing an opponent out in front of our net. The on air commentators noted this also.
IMO, Maurice is doing exactly the same thing to Vesalainen. He has an idea that all forwards need to be power forwards and all D need to be big and physical.
It’s also tricky for us because we don’t know the inter workings behind the scenes. What are they specifically looking for improvement wise? What are the small things they need to see? Etc, etc.
Yes, Ves is slowly showing some glimmers of offence . I would really like to see a somewhat re-jiggered PP2 with Ves playing the equivalent of Connor on PP1 (great ability to shoot in one motion). I think he would potentially get a shot of confidence - something much needed.
But I fear we've drifted pretty far off topic given this is a Heinola thread - my apologies to all.
The question becomes when are they ready? How much does a player need to dominate a lower level before they are deemed ready?
I don't see Gus needing any additional development in the AHL. He's about as complete as you can get.
Perfetti once again us dominating the AHL after an initial adjustment period and his coaches all rave about him and how quickly he learns and picks things up. I'm fine with him spending some more time there and getting a bit more confident but he's going to run out race track there in the not so distant future.
Heinola is in a similar boat in that he doesn't have a whole lot left to learn there. He also doesn't have any contractual benefit to stay there as his ELC has started.
To me there has been a fundamental shift away from how the org was integrating prospects prior to our run in 2018. We no longer are concerned with integrating our top prospects into key roles as we were then.
You can't tell me all of Laine, Conner, Ehelers, Morrissey, Scheifele etc were completely ready to play but the org was willing to live with the learning curves of each. I see no appetite to live with these learning curves any longer and imo we are moving away from our mantra of draft and develop.
I'm quite surprised at your take @KingBogo as you are a pretty big Sakic as a GM fan and he has pretty much been aggressively integrating his talented youth into key spots of his roster. Makar jumped right in during the playoffs, Byram was integrated right from the get go this year. Newhook spent all of 10 games in the AHL this year where he dominated play and was quickly called up and is contributing.
So if Stanley Cup contending teams are looking to upgrade their skill level with cheap and talented ELC players then there is no reason we shouldn't be following suit when our players are also ready.
If Ville is ready for the NHL he should play instead of being buried in a league he clearly has outgrown.
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The thing is they are still very young. Among forwards only Ehlers and Laine were playing at Perfetti’s age. Among defenceman only Trouba was playing at Heinola’s age. IMO it is best to maximize development for their long term success. We will see how Perfetti looks at the WJC. If he is ready he will dominate peers his own age.
I put more stock into him dominating adults then what he does in a 7 game tournament. I expect he'll have a great tournament but his performance in it has no basis on my view on if he's ready or not.
As mentioned I am fine with leaving Cole for now in the AHL unless we need a Wheeler replacement on the hb of the pp and in our top 6.
I really don't know that age should be used as a big factor here. I think it is completely down to how their game looks and if they have the physical tools to play.
I don't disagree with maximizing development, but I think that means different things to different prospects.
To be honest I’ll be a bit worried about Cole if he doesn’t dominate at the WJC. He is only 1 of 3 returning players and should be a leader and key player. This is a step up moment for him. I’m a big fan but I’m also pretty patient. The funny thing is if he doesn’t have a great WJC I’ll be front and center defending him.
I mean plenty of players who are stars now didn't perform amazingly in the WJHC and plenty of great performs like Petan didn't amount to much.
We have one on our team in Dubois. Guys like Point, Suzuki and Barzal were also pretty pedestrian in that tournament. People put way too much stock in it.
Having said that he should be getting a front line role where he plays a consistent shift unlike last year so I expect he'll take it and run with it.
It is not only that Makar/Byram/Newhook were integrated into the roster - it is very much a matter of HOW they were integrated. They did not have to go through some ritualistic process of playing as 3rd pair defenders and/or 4th line grinders to somehow "earn" their ice time. They did not have to gain the coach's trust by first showing that they could survive in a position not well suited to them and one that they would not ultimately play.
And yet this is precisely how Maurice functions.
The funny thing is that I clearly remember Maurice saying that as certain levels of skilled players get injured, a comprable player will be called up to replace them.
When Pionk went down it should have been Heinola to replace him, with Wheeler out it should be Perfetti to replace him.
So far Boolio is the only person brought in. A completely different type of player.
You can’t bring in these highly skilled young guys and put them on an ‘energy’ or ‘grinder’ line.
When Pionk went down it should have been Heinola to replace him, with Wheeler out it should be Perfetti to replace him.
So far Boolio is the only person brought in. A completely different type of player.
You can’t bring in these highly skilled young guys and put them on an ‘energy’ or ‘grinder’ line.
Complete domination or not, it’s tough to garner anything from such a small sample size, especially when Canada usually has at least a couple of games against the free bingo space countries. Hard to gauge much from a 15-0 win over Belarus. I try not to put much stock into the WJCs. It’s tough to do because the whole hockey world will be laser-focused on the tournament, but it’s so short it doesn’t indicate much IMO. That said it’s always fun to watch our prospects, and I hope they do well.
That’s the problem with typecasting players like Maurice has a tendency to do.
For example, I understand wanting Heinola to become better at clearing the net, and that it’s appropriate he develops that part of his game in the AHL. But that’s not the type of defenseman he is or will ever be. When he comes up to the Jets that shouldn’t be the role given to him. It’s a good skill to have, for sure, but let him play to his strengths.
We’ve done this to other prospects (mainly forwards IIRC, and to be fair to Maurice, we’ve had a great top six for years now and I can’t blame him for not messing with it) but guys like Perfetti need not to play as grinders.
I mentioned Laine earlier ITT but maybe it’s better to not go down that route especially in a Heinola thread
. But I think he was also put in a situation where they tried to craft a specific player to some degree.
BobTheSolarsystem
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Team Canada is icing a small fast team - either that’s the future or the performances in the WJHC won’t be easily translated to the nhl
tbcwpg
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The WJHC performances have never really translated to the NHL. There are loads of tournament all-stars or team leaders that don't have any real NHL career. It's kids against kids, it's not a massive barometer for the pros.
Exactly, that was what I meant when I said we have stopped caring about integrating our talented young players and living with their arcs. Prior to 2018 we had no issue putting Conner, Laine, Morrissey etc into key roles and letting them learn (because it was forced on Moe by management).
Since then it's been as you've said the player starts on the bottom pairing/line and has to show they can cut their teeth their before they move up. The players more often then not also don't get any special teams time until the coach is good and ready to trust them which even in the case where he warms up fairly quickly its still a half a season before.
I mean they started Perfetti this year on a checking line without pp time. Granted I don't think Moe wanted Cole on the team to begin with but Cole kept playing well despite playing with largely AHL players in camp so he had no choice. But still if you have a player that can help your pp why the heck not trial him there especially with Scheifele out for a game. To me it's just a fundamental issue of Moe allowing politics and seniority to overrule proper player evaluation and usage.
What have we seen this year with our poor special teams. Moe has insisted on putting non talented hacks like Nash and to a lesser extent Lowry on the pp instead of more skilled players like Ves/Svech. Any wonder with that elite talent evaluation that out special teams have struggled this year.
I honestly wish that we never got away from that early philosophy, it lead to our best ever results. This org since trying to win has not been nearly as successful.
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Exactly, I would have preferred that he stayed in the AHL myself. I don't see what he's going to gain be going to a lower level of competition in a less structured environment.
