Post-Game Talk: heave ho! 8 in a row (At home)

[Vinny DeAngelo]

9 forwards in top 3 lines, 31 teams, comes out to 279 if you wanna slice it that way.

Vesey had 27 points last year to put him at #217.
He has 8 right now to put him in the #219 to #246 range.

His 5 goals this year put him in the #128 to #165 range, and his 16 goals last year put him in the #138 to #151 range.

Your "doesn't score enough" argument holds little weight, if any at all.

If counting scoring like that to see where a guy fits on a team held any validity we wouldn't have constantly debated if stepan was a 1c..

I without a doubt think guys like puempel or letieri could have scored most of his goals.. He benefits alot from the players he's played with, Not that all players don't. But Vesey would score 0 points if he had to create all his own chances. His goal today was clearly a result of a fantastic play by Nash.

 

[EXTRAS]

How has kampfer looked lately?

 

[Vinny DeAngelo]

How has kampfer looked lately?

Some times he looks alright then he and staal get hemmed in the zone for 5 mins or he makes a horrible turnover...

I'm certainly surprised by his offensive game. No Erik Karlsson but I'd say hes average and is very aggressive.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

9 forwards in top 3 lines, 31 teams, comes out to 279 if you wanna slice it that way.

Vesey had 27 points last year to put him at #217.
He has 8 right now to put him in the #219 to #246 range.

His 5 goals this year put him in the #128 to #165 range, and his 16 goals last year put him in the #138 to #151 range.

Your "doesn't score enough" argument holds little weight, if any at all.

I am giving an opinion on how AV should use players, which is where his production comes into play, purely using point totals doesn't paint a full picture. Last season, Vesey was 11th among forwards on the team in P/60, this season he's 12th among forwards in P/60. If you give a player who doesn't produce as a top 9 forward premium line mates and PP time, of course he could find a way to get close to 30 points. Lindberg almost hit 30 a few years back, Fast hit 30 a few years back, Grabner hit 40 last year. I don't consider any of them to be top 9 players, they benefited from situations that most players don't get. You also counted the whole league totals, which is not a great measure, considering not every team in the league has the same offense. We had the 4th best offense last season, this season we have the 7th best.

If you can't hit 30 points over 82 games with consistency, I don't want you in my team's top 9. Even 30 points is rather borderline. If you get top 9 ice time, PP time, top 9 line mates, you should be scoring 40 points or more per 82 on this team. A guy who scores 27 is rather unproductive, in my opinion, and the per minute point stats show that Vesey is very ineffective at scoring points, at least compared to other Rangers.

 

[PuckLuck3043]

If counting scoring like that to see where a guy fits on a team held any validity we wouldn't have constantly debated if stepan was a 1c..

I without a doubt think guys like puempel or letieri could have scored most of his goals.. He benefits alot from the players he's played with, Not that all players don't. But Vesey would score 0 points if he had to create all his own chances. His goal today was clearly a result of a fantastic play by Nash.

True, but he made a nice move to score that goal. He has pretty good hands.

 

[Pavel Buchnevich]

How has kampfer looked lately?

Like an AHL'er

 

[Alluckks]

If counting scoring like that to see where a guy fits on a team held any validity we wouldn't have constantly debated if stepan was a 1c..

I without a doubt think guys like puempel or letieri could have scored most of his goals.. He benefits alot from the players he's played with, Not that all players don't. But Vesey would score 0 points if he had to create all his own chances. His goal today was clearly a result of a fantastic play by Nash.

I firmly believed Stepan was a 1C in those debates so you're barking up the wrong tree with that reasoning I suppose.

If you want to have a player that is an above average 1C, or an above average 3rd liner, then you have to say that - but to take away the fact that they fit the mold of the average one of those in this league is just hogwash

 

[eco's bones]

If counting scoring like that to see where a guy fits on a team held any validity we wouldn't have constantly debated if stepan was a 1c..

I without a doubt think guys like puempel or letieri could have scored most of his goals.. He benefits alot from the players he's played with, Not that all players don't. But Vesey would score 0 points if he had to create all his own chances. His goal today was clearly a result of a fantastic play by Nash.

On his goal Vesey made the defensive play to get the puck out of the zone--Nash did make a great play but Vesey also made himself available for that play to be made by continuing to skate hard up the ice and to get separation from the defensive coverage. That goal isn't scored if those things don't happen either. And one last thing Vesey does is he doesn't shoot it right away--he recognizes the goalie is moving across the crease--he takes the pass and goes the other way with it and then he puts it top shelf and not along the ice like we've seen so many other times players failing to do and not getting the goal. Nash made a great play but that was good recognition and great hands on Vesey's part to finish it off.

It was a first class finish and he also made a great move and finish on his shootout goal--actually Nash and Shattenkirk did too. Zucc and Buch didn't great shots off. Miller had a pretty good shot and Zibanejad lost the puck altogether.

 

[EdJovanovski]

1. Vesey
2. Nash
3. Lundqvist

 

[EdJovanovski]

For some weird reason, Vancouver seems to be down on a kid like Virtanen. If they’re selling, I’d buy and plug him into the bottom-6. He’ll never get back to where he was before the shoulder surgery, but he’s a really good skater, can hit, and can rifle the puck when he gets some space. He could be a useful modern-era “lunchpail” kinda guy. Vesey-Boo-Virtanen would be a ***** of a 4th line for other teams to handle

Agreed, I’d love Virtanen on the Rangers. Incredibly fast and has a laser of a shot, there seems to be some character issues and perhaps the distraction of playing in his hometown is a factor. I think he could use a change of scenery, at best he becomes Evander Kane, at worst a speedy & gritty bottom 6 winger who can occasionally chip in offensively

 

[PuckLuck3043]

On his goal Vesey made the defensive play to get the puck out of the zone--Nash did make a great play but Vesey also made himself available for that play to be made by continuing to skate hard up the ice and to get separation from the defensive coverage. That goal isn't scored if those things don't happen either. And one last thing Vesey does is he doesn't shoot it right away--he recognizes the goalie is moving across the crease--he takes the pass and goes the other way with it and then he puts it top shelf and not along the ice like we've seen so many other times players failing to do and not getting the goal. Nash made a great play but that was good recognition and great hands on Vesey's part to finish it off.

It was a first class finish and he also made a great move and finish on his shootout goal--actually Nash and Shattenkirk did too. Zucc and Buch didn't great shots off. Miller had a pretty good shot and Zibanejad lost the puck altogether.

Great post.

 

[aufheben]

I love Brendan Smith.

 

[Levitate]

Vesey just frustrates me in that he seems though he could be a solid useful player if he played one style of game but he keeps trying to play another. He's got good hands, he's got good instincts for jumping into passing lanes and stealing pucks, he's got a good nose around the net, but he plays like he wants to be a puck control player and he doesn't have the vision for that. He turns it over constantly trying to be Kevin Hayes out there but he can't quite see the ice well enough to play that way.

 

[will1066]

Let's just admit that if the play were flipped, with Vesey feeding Nash, #61 would've flubbed the shot.

 

[SnowblindNYR]

Let's just admit that if the play were flipped, with Vesey feeding Nash, #61 would've flubbed the shot.

That's unrealistic since Vesey would flub the pass first.

 

[Maximus]

One of the few Ranger games I've missed this year as instead went to Met Life to see my Jets do their typical "tease you into thinking they can win and than choke and gag when it's nitty gritty time"....lol

Saw the highlights and it appears Vesey had one of his better games as a Ranger....good for him.

For those of y'all who watched the game, how did Brendan Smith look?

His reemergence since all those healthy scratches has been huge for us and so want to know if he continued his strong play vs the 'Nucks today.

 

[kovazub94]

I hope @silverfish you realize what you have done now extending this Vesey NHLer or not nonsense with your statistics (without context) . That skill - to be in the right place resulting in a scoring chance - you dismissed so easily is one of the most valuable skills for a forward that most often separates those that made it from those that didn't.

Why is it so difficult to realize that Vesey tried to do too much and struggled early on when AV put him in top6 (while the team was losing and many were struggling). Even then he was in the middle of quite a few scoring chances that were not going in. The number of these scoring chances really haven't increased that much but with the team doing better and playing down on the 4th line, Vesey has gotten more relaxed and confident and I think he figured out his style of play to be successful. Sorry to bring it up but how many trips between the NHL and AHL did it take Miller to figure it out and for you to finally stop doubting him? Vesey barely has a 1 and a 1/4 NHL seasons under his belt.

 

[will1066]

That's unrealistic since Vesey would flub the pass first.

Touche.

 

[will1066]

One of the few Ranger games I've missed this year as instead went to Met Life to see my Jets do their typical "tease you into thinking they can win and than choke and gag when it's nitty gritty time"....lol

Saw the highlights and it appears Vesey had one of his better games as a Ranger....good for him.

For those of y'all who watched the game, how did Brendan Smith look?

His reemergence since all those healthy scratches has been huge for us and so want to know if he continued his strong play vs the 'Nucks today.

He was mostly good. Made a few flubs that could've been disastrous. He was in on one rush and fanned on the shot allowing the Nucks to counter attack. But everyone was giving the puck away really until the 3rd period comeback.

 

[Inferno]

He's basically useless outside the top-6, and doesn't deserve to be there. He can't create offense on his own. He had a nice goal today, and scored in the shootout, and that's great, and I hope he keeps scoring, but I'm not going to hold my breath.

Vesey is good at one thing, and that's getting into the correct position to get a good attempt off. You can't really teach that. But, that's all he's good at. His two-way game is brutal. If he's not scoring, he's hurting you, and he doesn't score very often.

Across the last two seasons, he's skated 1200 minutes of 5v5 time. Among the 153 forwards who meet that same threshold, he's 6th to last in total points. 15th to last in primary points. 11th to last in p/60. 24th to last in primary points per 60.

If you want to get more advanced, he's:

6th to last in relative shot attempt %
4th to last in relative expected goals %
3rd to last in relative goals %

[all data via Corsica.Hockey]

So. In my opinion, via my eyes and some analysis, it's not totally outrageous to believe that Jimmy Vesey might not be an "NHL Player". I maintain that it is extremely unfortunate that he was not sent to the AHL last year, and that it sucks that he would need waivers to do it this year, because if he didn't, I'd send him to the A now.

Are there better options in the Rangers organization right now? Probably not. Should Vesey continue to be shoehorned into the top-6 every chance AV gets? No way.

yep..dont even have to look at all those stats, just watch him..use the eye test, dont just watch when Nash single handedly sets him up for a gimme..watch when he goes behind the net and blindly throws the puck to the slot where, count em, 3 Vancouver players are, and 0 Ranger players are, only to have 3 Ranger players trapped for a 3 on 2 rush against. Or have him come in on a 3 on 2, fall over for no reason, and have a 3 on 2 against because failskates...or have him come up the ice with a head of steam, try to make a move in the neutral zone, turn it over, and have a 3 on 1 come back down our throats.

Time...and time...and effing time again, he does the same crap, and gets effing rewarded for it with MORE ice time in HIGHER leverage situations.

JIMMY VESEY IS NOT AN NHL PLAYER.

 

[Fitzy]

Vesey just frustrates me in that he seems though he could be a solid useful player if he played one style of game but he keeps trying to play another. He's got good hands, he's got good instincts for jumping into passing lanes and stealing pucks, he's got a good nose around the net, but he plays like he wants to be a puck control player and he doesn't have the vision for that. He turns it over constantly trying to be Kevin Hayes out there but he can't quite see the ice well enough to play that way.

That's what I mean when I say he has JT Miller potential. But the difference is AV gave Miller a short leash at a young age, Vesey has a long one.

 

[Machinehead]

How has kampfer looked lately?

lmao

 

[SnowblindNYR]

With how good Smith and Skjei have looked lately, I think our D despite looking like crap lately will look respectable when we'll get McDonagh back and will be back to one scrub (Staal) on D.

 

[Inferno]

Smith has looked fantastic of late..other than idiotic penalties ive really liked his game...

Holden has played pretty well too, which is shocking. Staal has been hit or miss but lightyears better than last year. Kampfer has sucked imho. Shatty and Skjei have been A+.

The actual players havent been an issue...i still think that our defensive zone SYSTEM is extremely problematic...because the SYSTEM is...let Henrik make a billion ridiculous saves a game, and hope we can put in 4 or 5 goals on breakaways.

Vancouver showed through 2 periods why our system is dumb come playoff time. Clog the zone, dont give up the stretch pass, take away time and space, and we suck. They turtled for a bit, their goalie gave up a softie, and we won.

Long term..not a recipe for success. FIRE AV.

 

[trilobyte]

Agreed, I’d love Virtanen on the Rangers. Incredibly fast and has a laser of a shot, there seems to be some character issues and perhaps the distraction of playing in his hometown is a factor. I think he could use a change of scenery, at best he becomes Evander Kane, at worst a speedy & gritty bottom 6 winger who can occasionally chip in offensively

Virtanen has always tantalized with the physical gifts he has. Where I always saw him fall down, as did many others, was in the mental aspects of his game. He often looked easily distracted and not totally focussed on using those talents (yeah, it might be ancient history but his WJC showing for Team Canada was a huge letdown and it did not paint a good picture). Granted, I have not watched him a lot lately. I think you might be right with the change of scenery approach. I just always had a problem thinking that he would miss what appeared to be some very good potential, and I always thought he should be able to do much better.