Hawks of Yesteryear Part II - Madden AHL 17

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JaegerDice

The mark of my dignity shall scar thy DNA
Dec 26, 2014
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He got the rub of the stick but his scenario just hurt him, they really added too many forwards with those moves and in his absent waiting due to Immigration, Panik had some nice games as did Fleischman making Weiss less fitting anywhere.

I'd still take the case of Patrick Kane and some others playing to fill 4-5 more minutes of ice with a Mash guy playing 5 over just having a Weiss type play 9 minutes in a game.

I'd far prefer a useable, versatile forward play 9 minutes than a Mash or Bollig play 5.

All those lost minutes add up over a season and have to be absorbed by other members of the team. Theres a physical cost there.

Plus, theres a reason players like Mash only get 5 minutes. Theyre very bad hockey players. So thats five minutes of greater exposure and weakness per game.

Teams with 5 minute guys get beaten by teams without them.
 

hockeydoug

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And as for using ZS and QoC to somehow determine how good Versteeg was defensively, I'll use your methodology on the Hawks to show you the problem with it. Here is the Hawks RWs for the 2012/13 season.

http://public.tableau.com/shared/SD57RPW36?:display_count=no

So if you were to use the methodology you suggest, you would have to conclude that when Hayes was in the lineup he was the primary defensive RW. And when he wasn’t in there, Patrick Kane was the RW more often used defensively against top lines. And Marian Hossa was actually the guy that was more of an offensive top 6 dude. And Frolik only played against the lower line guys. I’m sorry but that isn’t really based in reality. The only even relatively good QoC data I have seen was at Extra Skater and it was QoC TOI but for forwards only. The total QoC TOI is too heavily slanted to the defensemen. And defensemen are matched up to which players are good offensively. So Toews can end up with higher QoC numbers than Bolland or Kruger, as an example, even when those other two are matched up against the other team’s tougher lines more frequently. So if you can’t use that data to get a good picture of Hossa and the Hawks, you shouldn’t be trying to say things like “Dineen leaned on Fleishman more than Versteeg defensively.†The data is just not accurate enough to be making those kinds of statements.
That is nothing close to my methodology.
First off:
Relative corsi doesn't account for QoT, only relative performance against the entire team as opposed to how somebody does with the same grouping. There are enough samples to see how other players perform with comparable minutes with the same teammates, nothing stands out in Versteeg's case on his last several teams.
Second:
There is nothing to factor in game deployment and situational TOI.
Third:
the graph is only 2 numbers (3 if breaking apart relative corsi), which makes it extremely difficult to track any player characteristic.
Fourth:
Playoffs count. Not all regular season games are coached equally. How he's been used (or not used) the last 3 postseasons has been telling of his game.
You keep talking about how 6 teams agree with you and I have no idea why you think that. All I can tell you is that the two teams that have combined for 5 Stanley Cups this decade have both traded for Versteeg. And that was to help them in their playoff runs. And both coaches are notorious for not playing offensive only players. You have to be able to play defense for both of those guys. So no, 6 organizations don't agree with you. In fact the two good ones specifically disagree with you.

And teams are giving up the mid-tier vets because they can’t afford them, not because they don’t want them or because they are bad defensively. Hawks traded Versteeg twice because of the salary cap, not because he couldn't play defense. And watching all these vets getting squeezed out of jobs isn't happening to just this one player. So using that as some justification that Versteeg is somehow NOT a good defensive player is simply wrong.

Trading for Versteeg doesn't meant they wanted his defense, besides, in LA it coincided with Gaborik's move to LTIR and he was initially plugged into a scoring role. Versteeg was acquired by the Hawks to be an offensive LW opposite Kane. Saad wasn't Saad yet and he hadn't been effective sticking with Kane as of yet and had thrived opposite Shaw on that line. Sharp was with Toews and Hossa leaving only Bickell as the other scoring LW option and he was on his way or already on LTIR when they made the acquisition. There was no shortage of continuity on that Hawks roster. Kane's line was the only one in real flux and I don't think anybody disagrees with how Q uses Kane.

Moving on to usage, Sutter all but benches a guy with a strong 2 way game on the road in a SJ series? He was there to fill in for Gaborik's absence in the top 6 for scoring, he was deployed offensively in a 2way assignment initially, and then Sutter thought better of it....like everybody else has for over a half decade.

Versteeg was a mess in 14' by the end of the year and was getting scratched for postseason games in 15'. I don't see anything by those 2 coaches to suggest he's somebody they trust in a 2way role in big games. It looks even worse by an eye test, without any numbers. He was not a strong defensive player, let alone good or excellent.

Last word is yours if you want it.
 

Neo1978

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Kris Versteeg has been injured in each of the last 4 years he has played. Any limits to his playing time have been because of that, not because he suddenly forgot how to play defense. Furthermore, this concept that Versteeg hasn’t been used as a two-way/defensive player in the last 6 years is utter hogwash. Last healthy season in Florida the most used line combination was Versteeg/Weise/Fleischman. Anyway, anyone familiar with the Panthers that year knows that Goc and Weise were the two lines they used against other teams’ top two lines. So Versteeg was still being used on a two-way line that season.

The last season with the Hawks had Versteeg’s number one utilized line as Versteeg/Richards/Kane. His second most utilized line was Versteeg/Toews/Hossa. That was the Hawks 4th most utilized line and was used almost the same amount of time as the 3rd most utilized line of Smith/Kruger/Nordstrom. So by all means think Q was wasting Toews and Hossa together on an offensive only line for that length of time but you are nuts if you do. Versteeg was playing a two-way role on the Hawks on that line. So he had a two-way role that season, as well.

Now just because a player is being used for offense doesn’t negate their defensive responsibilities. So let’s compare typical defensive situations that forwards need to be responsible for; especially the ones that have given up the most Quality Shots against. First, let’s look at the F3 high in the offensive zone situation. Most coaches want the 3rd forward to be above the puck so if there is a turnover, there are three players capable of handling a 3 forward rush. Q lets the Hawks 3rd forward go “3 forwards low†in certain situations more than most any other coach. He does want you to pick your spots and only do it when you can get away with it. So who abuses that situation? Kane is the obvious choice; Shaw in a number of cases has been caught doing it at the wrong time. You know who in 2014 got caught giving up 3 Quality Shots Against by being too low as F3? Marian frickin’ Hossa. And he did it 4 times if you count the one as F3 when he ran into Toews and took both of them down for a 4o2 Quality Shot the other way. You know who never got caught doing that? Kris Versteeg. Why? Because he is a pretty savvy player that picks his spots on when to cheat.

Then there are the Hawks Dman rotations in the offensive zone. When a forward skates with the puck up into the point area, the Dman will abandon that area on a switch. Once the Hawk forward passes the puck away, he needs to stay there and cover as the Dman until the real Dman can return to that spot. You know who forgets to do that? Kane of course and also Shaw, Saad did that at least once too, if I recall. You know who doesn’t ever forget to cover for the Dman? Versteeg. He is even known to notice when other forwards have blown that assignment and have gone over to cover for them. And he is also the best Hawks forward in actually covering for a Dman if there is indeed a turnover. He can skate backwards and maintain a good gap and not look like a pylon the way so many forwards do when they are caught in that situation. That is because he grew up playing D.

And in a defensive rush the first forward back needs to cover for the center until the center can switch. Some wingers seem to periodically have a brain cramp and forget to check where the center is. Then they just go to their wing spot and abandon their responsibilities. I’m looking at you Patrick Sharp. There are a couple of examples where Hossa is still a zone behind when he realizes that Sharp is brain-farting. The jump out of his skin reaction as he puts it in high gear to cover is pretty funny to see. And Sharp has been known to “let Hossa take it†when the two are somewhat near to each other. You know who takes his F1 responsibilities seriously? Yep, Versteeg.

So, you know another fault of those primarily offensive players? It is when they are in the defensive zone and jump to offense prematurely. I can give you examples of Kane and Sharp doing that and giving up Quality Shots Against as a result. I can give you an example of Shaw thinking the Hawks are going to get a puck and lazy loop off of the F1 spot to the half wall anticipating a pass, only to find the Hawks never had the puck. And then the opponent is now shooting a point blank shot from Shaw’s abandoned position. You know who I don’t have any examples of doing stuff like that? Versteeg. When he cherry picks the Hawks actually have the puck. So there aren’t examples of Quality Shots against when he tries to get behind the opponents defense.

And how about flybys at the net? I can talk about how a player like Shaw didn’t stop in front of his own net and instead skated in a lazy loop behind it, letting the opponent get a primo shot off. Or how Shaw goes and plays puppy dog defense where he “sees puck and chases puck.†Or how Toews is sometimes in a walkabout where he anticipates the puck going to an area that is nowhere near where the puck ends up and is now completely out of the play. I have little “isms†for most of the Hawks players of common mistakes they keep making. What I don’t have is a defensive “ism†for Versteeg. And the memes that are out there about him aren’t real. I don’t have multiple examples of Quality Shots against based on any of those memes.

What I do have is when I am looking at a play, I’m going, “OK, I am expecting a Hawk here, here and here.†And in those situations, I see Versteeg is in one of those spots while other players who are supposed to be known for their defense are not. In fact as forwards go; Versteeg, Kruger and Hossa are the only ones that consistently are where you would expect them to be defensively. As I mentioned Toews freelances more than those guys which is the reason I didn’t include him there too. So the meme where “Versteeg hasn’tbeen a quality defensive player in 6 years†is a bunch of hogwash. He was one just two seasons ago.
 

BK

"Goalie Apologist"
Feb 8, 2011
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Kris Versteeg has been injured in each of the last 4 years he has played. Any limits to his playing time have been because of that, not because he suddenly forgot how to play defense. Furthermore, this concept that Versteeg hasn’t been used as a two-way/defensive player in the last 6 years is utter hogwash. Last healthy season in Florida the most used line combination was Versteeg/Weise/Fleischman. Anyway, anyone familiar with the Panthers that year knows that Goc and Weise were the two lines they used against other teams’ top two lines. So Versteeg was still being used on a two-way line that season.

The last season with the Hawks had Versteeg’s number one utilized line as Versteeg/Richards/Kane. His second most utilized line was Versteeg/Toews/Hossa. That was the Hawks 4th most utilized line and was used almost the same amount of time as the 3rd most utilized line of Smith/Kruger/Nordstrom. So by all means think Q was wasting Toews and Hossa together on an offensive only line for that length of time but you are nuts if you do. Versteeg was playing a two-way role on the Hawks on that line. So he had a two-way role that season, as well.

Now just because a player is being used for offense doesn’t negate their defensive responsibilities. So let’s compare typical defensive situations that forwards need to be responsible for; especially the ones that have given up the most Quality Shots against. First, let’s look at the F3 high in the offensive zone situation. Most coaches want the 3rd forward to be above the puck so if there is a turnover, there are three players capable of handling a 3 forward rush. Q lets the Hawks 3rd forward go “3 forwards low†in certain situations more than most any other coach. He does want you to pick your spots and only do it when you can get away with it. So who abuses that situation? Kane is the obvious choice; Shaw in a number of cases has been caught doing it at the wrong time. You know who in 2014 got caught giving up 3 Quality Shots Against by being too low as F3? Marian frickin’ Hossa. And he did it 4 times if you count the one as F3 when he ran into Toews and took both of them down for a 4o2 Quality Shot the other way. You know who never got caught doing that? Kris Versteeg. Why? Because he is a pretty savvy player that picks his spots on when to cheat.

Then there are the Hawks Dman rotations in the offensive zone. When a forward skates with the puck up into the point area, the Dman will abandon that area on a switch. Once the Hawk forward passes the puck away, he needs to stay there and cover as the Dman until the real Dman can return to that spot. You know who forgets to do that? Kane of course and also Shaw, Saad did that at least once too, if I recall. You know who doesn’t ever forget to cover for the Dman? Versteeg. He is even known to notice when other forwards have blown that assignment and have gone over to cover for them. And he is also the best Hawks forward in actually covering for a Dman if there is indeed a turnover. He can skate backwards and maintain a good gap and not look like a pylon the way so many forwards do when they are caught in that situation. That is because he grew up playing D.

And in a defensive rush the first forward back needs to cover for the center until the center can switch. Some wingers seem to periodically have a brain cramp and forget to check where the center is. Then they just go to their wing spot and abandon their responsibilities. I’m looking at you Patrick Sharp. There are a couple of examples where Hossa is still a zone behind when he realizes that Sharp is brain-farting. The jump out of his skin reaction as he puts it in high gear to cover is pretty funny to see. And Sharp has been known to “let Hossa take it†when the two are somewhat near to each other. You know who takes his F1 responsibilities seriously? Yep, Versteeg.

So, you know another fault of those primarily offensive players? It is when they are in the defensive zone and jump to offense prematurely. I can give you examples of Kane and Sharp doing that and giving up Quality Shots Against as a result. I can give you an example of Shaw thinking the Hawks are going to get a puck and lazy loop off of the F1 spot to the half wall anticipating a pass, only to find the Hawks never had the puck. And then the opponent is now shooting a point blank shot from Shaw’s abandoned position. You know who I don’t have any examples of doing stuff like that? Versteeg. When he cherry picks the Hawks actually have the puck. So there aren’t examples of Quality Shots against when he tries to get behind the opponents defense.

And how about flybys at the net? I can talk about how a player like Shaw didn’t stop in front of his own net and instead skated in a lazy loop behind it, letting the opponent get a primo shot off. Or how Shaw goes and plays puppy dog defense where he “sees puck and chases puck.†Or how Toews is sometimes in a walkabout where he anticipates the puck going to an area that is nowhere near where the puck ends up and is now completely out of the play. I have little “isms†for most of the Hawks players of common mistakes they keep making. What I don’t have is a defensive “ism†for Versteeg. And the memes that are out there about him aren’t real. I don’t have multiple examples of Quality Shots against based on any of those memes.

What I do have is when I am looking at a play, I’m going, “OK, I am expecting a Hawk here, here and here.†And in those situations, I see Versteeg is in one of those spots while other players who are supposed to be known for their defense are not. In fact as forwards go; Versteeg, Kruger and Hossa are the only ones that consistently are where you would expect them to be defensively. As I mentioned Toews freelances more than those guys which is the reason I didn’t include him there too. So the meme where “Versteeg hasn’t been a quality defensive player in 6 years†is a bunch of hogwash. He was one just two seasons ago.


Mind sharing your tracking/stat sheets. You bring up the metrics and situations so I am curious to how you are tracking it (also it shows you are not making **** up to a point).

You are correct about Sharp. Shaw was reckless in his play so he was never a player that was a good position player.

Bolded part: Versteeg is the king of the fake hard back check and unless you are talking about 2010 he was not good on defense at all. He abandoned defensive responsibilities his last year here so often that it was the norm for him. Being used in a two-way forward role and being good at it are two completely different things. Versteeg also has a terrible habit of taking long looping turns when starting his back check instead of stopping and busting ass back. Versteeg was actively terrible on D in 2015 and that is part of the reason he was benched aka he stopped scoring so there was no point in having him on the ice. The last time he was a decent NHL player that was worth his playing time was the 11-12 season. He has not been good since then and was not good defensively at all.
 

Neo1978

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Aug 3, 2015
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Mind sharing your tracking/stat sheets. You bring up the metrics and situations so I am curious to how you are tracking it (also it shows you are not making **** up to a point).

You are correct about Sharp. Shaw was reckless in his play so he was never a player that was a good position player.

Bolded part: Versteeg is the king of the fake hard back check and unless you are talking about 2010 he was not good on defense at all. He abandoned defensive responsibilities his last year here so often that it was the norm for him. Being used in a two-way forward role and being good at it are two completely different things. Versteeg also has a terrible habit of taking long looping turns when starting his back check instead of stopping and busting ass back. Versteeg was actively terrible on D in 2015 and that is part of the reason he was benched aka he stopped scoring so there was no point in having him on the ice. The last time he was a decent NHL player that was worth his playing time was the 11-12 season. He has not been good since then and was not good defensively at all.

My individual game and partial season stats are at 17-seconds.com if you care to look. They moved from 17--seconds.tumblr.com so you can find earlier stuff if it is still there. They are all tagged Neostats if you want to google search the site:

site:17-seconds.com neostats
 

BK

"Goalie Apologist"
Feb 8, 2011
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Thanks.

For others, this explains the rational behind Neo1978 posts.

http://www.17-seconds.com/p/blog-page_23.html



I see the value in what you are tracking but there are too many other factors that influence what you are looking at to decide is a player is good defensively. At least I see the POV now. When you add this kind of context it helps people who you are discussing the topic with understand your POV. Just my thought on that.
 

hockeydoug

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May 26, 2012
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I stated I was giving up last say on the topic. I read the post and will leave it be. Thank you for responding.
 

JaegerDice

The mark of my dignity shall scar thy DNA
Dec 26, 2014
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The comments sections on that site are.... uh.... something.
 

hockeydoug

Registered User
May 26, 2012
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448
Versteeg PTO with the oil will be interesting to follow.
Which slot is he competing to snag?
 

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That was a good read. Earlier this summer there was a thread on the main board asking if a knowledgeable HF poster would make a capable GM. I think it was right after the draft when Jim Benning was in full swing after his horrible trade deadline and draft moves. A lot of people really thought that "just some guy" can be a GM of a team if he watches enough hockey. I think a lot of posters really think the job is just real-life NHL 17 where making trades, scouting and drafting, and signing players to new contracts is not only all you do, but that it's easy enough for anyone to do it. That was another good one from the Player's Trib
 

x Tame Impala

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Daley obviously wasn't a fit here but was the reason really as simple as he was playing on his wrong side?
 

hockeydoug

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Daley obviously wasn't a fit here but was the reason really as simple as he was playing on his wrong side?

For Rutherford maybe it was that simple.

I think there's a little more to it than that, everything from unwillingness to adapt to a new role to impatience (everybody not named Toews or Keith has been bumped up and down slots).
 

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Well in the article Rutherford did talk about how hard it can be adapting to a new team and lockerroom, especially if they just won a cup. I always thought the Hawks were notorious for their lockerroom chemistry though.
 

Blackhawkswincup

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Hard to adapt to a new coach who actually expects you to play your position and contribute in role given

Daley was unhappy playing on 3rd pairing and was unhappy actually playing defense. Its not on Q that Daley was used to free lancing in Dallas with no accountability

And in end the Pens won cup without Daley so he really wasn't that important

Daley was playing #5 spot ,, He was not better option then our big 3 nor TVR
 
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