Has your opinion of Jim Benning changed?

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bandwagonesque

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I don't understand why people are saying "90% of this is in his first 3 years" as if that does not have an impact on today's roster.
This is a strawman. No one has made this claim. People have claimed it indicates he's likely improved and as of now might theoretically be a good GM, which is the subject of this thread.
 
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Frankie Blueberries

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Boeser and Konecny were both excellent picks in that they are massively outperforming their draft position and other players drafted around them. The notion that GMs shouldn't get credit for making good picks simply because other good picks were made later is senseless and no intelligent fan takes it seriously.

Right and both players were available at 23rd overall and were selected back-to-back. 2015 was one of the best drafts of all time. It's not insane to think another GM would have made a good pick at 23rd overall considering the next GM in line selected Konecny.

I've given Benning credit for the Boeser selection on multiple different occasions. Looks like you have a selective memory based on your Benning bias. I'd say that you're better than this, but we both know that's a lie :laugh:
 

Frankie Blueberries

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This is a strawman. No one has made this claim. People have claimed it indicates he's likely improved and as of now might theoretically be a good GM, which is the subject of this thread.

@Lucbourdon just made that claim. You know, the post that I was responding to. I can't take you seriously if you aren't even reading the original post I responded to. You've become unhinged lol.
 

Siludin

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Jim Benning is this decade's Bob Gainey but with less success but also less longevity in the position overall.
 

Delusionalplan

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Well...his first several years really were atrocious. I think his 2016 was Milbury level bad. That draft might be the worst in Canuck's history; worse than 2007. Then there was Gudbranson, Vrbata, Hamhuis, Eriksson, etc. Some of it wasn't just poor hockey judgement, it reeked of incompetence in running a business.
But I like that team right now. I'll be willing to forgive a lot of the baffling, awful decisions he's made, if the Canucks become a perennial playoff team. Results ultimately matter the most. Still don't totally trust him to not f*** up.
 

bandwagonesque

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@Lucbourdon just made that claim. You know, the post that I was responding to. I can't take you seriously if you aren't even reading the original post I responded to. You've become unhinged lol.
No, he didn't. I'll quote him:

"Also, 90% of this is about his work in the first 3 years, which fairly was awful, but he has gotten significantly better. "

He did not make the claim that Benning's initial mistakes don't currently effect the roster, just that their timing relative to Benning's better moves suggests he's improving. Is this correct, @Lucbourdon ?
 

aufheben

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It's not at all ridiculous to say he didn't and thought Miller could be more. Maybe even that they knew he would be a better fit with them than he was in New York or Tampa. Even the assumption that it was still an overpay because of Tampa's cap situation ignores a lot of other possibilities.

The problem with this logic is that it assumes fans are good judges and they really aren't. More than anything seems to be some guys just being unable to admit they were wrong initially.
I mean it's a thread about our opinions of a GM.
 

WetcoastOrca

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No, you've misunderstood the post.

I'm saying that people credit Benning and the Canucks drafting based on the high picks (fans often cite Hughes/Pettersson as the big success stories). We only received the 6th overall, 5th overall x 2, and 10th overall picks because we have been atrociously bad over the last 6 seasons.

Boeser was a good pick at 23 overall. But let's not act like other GMs couldn't have made a good pick there with Konecny and Boeser available.
Why would I give other GMs credit for making good picks there when most GMs don’t get a first line player with a pick in the mid 20’s. That’s a home run by Benning. Here’s Mike Gillis’ picks in the 20s for comparison:
Nick Jensen
Pat White
Jordan Schroeder

And I’ve already addressed the higher picks where we had poor luck in the draft lottery and still managed to nab a franchise D and C. That rarely happens.
As I said I’d give him anywhere from a B to a B plus on drafting overall.
 

Frankie Blueberries

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No, he didn't. I'll quote him:

"Also, 90% of this is about his work in the first 3 years, which fairly was awful, but he has gotten significantly better. "

He did not make the claim that Benning's initial mistakes don't current effect the roster, just that their timing relative to Benning's better moves suggests he's improving.

Ah, I see what you mean, that is more fair.

My response is that Benning's previous gaffes and errors continue to impact this roster and thus my opinion of him is still negative. It's relevant to the topic to mention that his first half as GM is still impacting the current roster. That's relevant in both how I view Benning (to answer the topic's question) as well as evaluating the competitiveness of the current roster.

@Lucbourdon was responding to my report card which evaluated Benning's entire tenure in Vancouver. It's fair to point out that many of the mistakes were made earlier in his career here. I responded stating that these mistakes are still impacting the team today. This is in support of my report card of Benning, which LucBourdon had originally responded to. It's all on-point and relevant in the exchange between us.

Then you came along and tried to move the goal posts and shift this discussion into something it's not.
 

bandwagonesque

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Ah, I see what you mean, that is more fair.

My response is that Benning's previous gaffes and errors continue to impact this roster and thus my opinion of him is still negative. It's relevant to the topic to mention that his first half as GM is still impacting the current roster. That's relevant in both how I view Benning (to answer the topic's question) as well as evaluating the competitiveness of the current roster.

@Lucbourdon was responding to my report card which evaluated Benning's entire tenure in Vancouver. It's fair to point out that many of the mistakes were made earlier in his career here. I responded stating that these mistakes are still impacting the team today. This is in support of my report card of Benning, which LucBourdon had originally responded to. It's all on-point and relevant in the exchange between us.

Then you came along and tried to move the goal posts and shift this discussion into something it's not.
What goalposts were moved? as far as I can tell it's mostly you saying things that don't make any sense, like Boeser's acquisition being a reward for failure or that Benning shouldn't get credit for any player drafted with a pick he happened not to acquire. In general, when you say things that aren't accurate or that people find they can't take seriously, the discussion becomes about that no matter what you were originally talking about.
 
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Frankie Blueberries

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Why would I give other GMs credit for making good picks there when most GMs don’t get a first line player with a pick in the mid 20’s. That’s a home run by Benning. Here’s Mike Gillis’ picks in the 20s for comparison:
Nick Jensen
Pat White
Jordan Schroeder

And I’ve already addressed the higher picks where we had poor luck in the draft lottery and still managed to nab a franchise D and C. That rarely happens.
As I said I’d give him anywhere from a B to a B plus on drafting overall.

I don't know what Gillis has to do with anything considering he was fired (largely because of his drafting) and has not been hired since (also probably largely because of his drafting). Why are you using an unqualified person as a comparable for Benning? Weird flex but ok.

At the end of the day, our drafting has been reflective of the picks that we have received. We haven't done exceptionally well (if we had, we wouldn't have picked Juolevi and Virtanen, and our 2nd round picks and later round picks would have had more success).
 

Frankie Blueberries

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What goalposts were moved? as far as I can tell it's mostly you saying things that don't make any sense, like Boeser's acquisition being a reward for failure or that Benning shouldn't get credit for any player drafted with a pick he happened not to acquire.

I mean you just completely ignored the last post I made to go on this silly tangent, so there's another example of moving the goal posts/baiting. Your rebuttals make no sense other than to try to bait people into nonsensical side tangents. I brought things back to where they originally were, but it appears that you didn't even read the post.
 

bandwagonesque

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if we had, we wouldn't have picked Juolevi and Virtanen, and our 2nd round picks and later round picks would have had more success).
The Canucks have had one 2nd round pick in Benning's tenure from a draft long enough ago for any 2nd rounder to have a reasonable chance of making the league. He picked Thatcher Demko, who is in the NHL. Another 2nd rounder is 8th in the AHL in scoring and outpacing most of his draft cohort, and the most recent was one of the best players at the WJC.
 
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Frankie Blueberries

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The Canucks have had one 2nd round pick in Benning's tenure from a draft long enough ago for any 2nd rounder to have a reasonable chance of making the league. He picked Thatcher Demko, who is in the NHL.

And that's because Benning wasted all of our 2nd round picks on useless assets.

Also, I like how you neglect the Lind and Gadjovich picks. Hague would look great in a Canucks uniform right now.
 

WetcoastOrca

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I don't know what Gillis has to do with anything considering he was fired (largely because of his drafting) and has not been hired since (also probably largely because of his drafting). Why are you using an unqualified person as a comparable for Benning? Weird flex but ok.

At the end of the day, our drafting has been reflective of the picks that we have received. We haven't done exceptionally well (if we had, we wouldn't have picked Juolevi and Virtanen, and our 2nd round picks and later round picks would have had more success).
Fair point on Gillis.
I’ve already addressed twice why it’s too early to assess our later round picks but you choose to continually ignore it.
And yes the draft does reward teams for being bad but that is mitigated somewhat by the draft lottery in which we’ve been very unlucky. Presumably you don’t blame Benning for that. We are probably one of the only rebuilding teams who has never had a top three pick. Most got the first or second overall. Acquiring a franchise D and C with picks no higher than 5 is quite remarkable. And overshadows the difference between Virtanen and Nylander/Ehlers and the difference in Juolevi/Tkachuk imo. And then the homerun with getting Boeser in the 20s is also a big one.
I think you have unreasonable expectations on drafting and will find that if you look around the league there’s maybe only one of two GMs who meet your standards.
 

bandwagonesque

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And that's because Benning wasted all of our 2nd round picks on useless assets.

Also, I like how you neglect the Lind and Gadjovich picks. Hague would look great in a Canucks uniform right now.
Virtually none of Lind and Gadjovic's cohort have made the league, and Lind is currently one of the best 2nd rounders from his draft in the AHL or anywhere else. Regarding Hague, you're simply isolating a single player picked later who has outperformed a given pick and citing it as evidence that pick was poor despite that pick outperforming its cohort. Absolutely nothing you're saying has any merit or is making any sense.
 

ETTHAKING67

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The canucks cap situation is pretty horrible, no ?
No a lot of cap space and EP,Hughes,etc will need new contracts soon.
 

Frankie Blueberries

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Fair point on Gillis.
I’ve already addressed twice why it’s too early to assess our later round picks but you choose to continually ignore it.
And yes the draft does reward teams for being bad but that is mitigated somewhat by the draft lottery in which we’ve been very unlucky. Presumably you don’t blame Benning for that. We are probably one of the only rebuilding teams who has never had a top three pick. Most got the first or second overall. Acquiring a franchise D and C with picks no higher than 5 is quite remarkable. And overshadows the difference between Virtanen and Nylander/Ehlers and the difference in Juolevi/Tkachuk imo. And then the homerun with getting Boeser in the 20s is also a big one.
I think you have unreasonable expectations on drafting and will find that if you look around the league there’s maybe only one of two GMs who meet your standards.

I agree that it's too early to assess the picks, but it's not as simple as saying "jury is still out, not going to comment on it" (some fans still do this with Juolevi, which is a cop out, IMO).

I'm not ready to say Lind/Gadjovich are outright busts. But surely they weren't great picks considering players drafted after Lind have already played a fair amount of meaningful NHL games. That has to be a consideration in how well we draft. It's the same reason people get upset that we picked Juolevi over Tkachuk - it's about who else was available at the time.

I don't think you need the 1st or 2nd overall picks to draft and construct a competitive team. You'd think six top 10 picks in 7 years would be enough.
 

Frankie Blueberries

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Virtually none of Lind and Gadjovic's cohort have made the league, and Lind is currently one of the best 2nd rounders from his draft in the AHL or anywhere else. Regarding Hague, you're simply isolating a single player picked later who has outperformed a given pick and citing it as evidence that pick was poor despite that pick outperforming its cohort. Absolutely nothing you're saying has any merit or is making any sense.

This is factually and objectively false. And there are more players aside from Hague who have played in the NHL. At least do an ounce of research before making erroneous claims.

2017 NHL Entry Draft Picks at hockeydb.com
 

bandwagonesque

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players drafted after Lind have already played a fair amount of meaningful NHL games.
This statement is true of nearly every drafted player who has not yet played in the NHL. It's a nearly meaningless statement. No matter who you draft, someone better is liable to be drafted later in the same round unless you draft the best player from that point in the round onward, which is obviously not a meaningful or reasonable standard. Do you understand this?
 
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WetcoastOrca

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I agree that it's too early to assess the picks, but it's not as simple as saying "jury is still out, not going to comment on it" (some fans still do this with Juolevi, which is a cop out, IMO).

I'm not ready to say Lind/Gadjovich are outright busts. But surely they weren't great picks considering players drafted after Lind have already played a fair amount of meaningful NHL games. That has to be a consideration in how well we draft. It's the same reason people get upset that we picked Juolevi over Tkachuk - it's about who else was available at the time.

I don't think you need the 1st or 2nd overall picks to draft and construct a competitive team. You'd think six top 10 picks in 7 years would be enough.
No you can’t assess Lind, Madden or Rathbone yet but all three are tracking very well. As are a number of other picks.
We disagree on the first round picks and I don’t think either of us is going to change our minds.
I’m just happy that our drafting has finally turned around after so many lean years. As you say, with Bennings moves in organizing the scouting department we should be in a great position moving forward no matter who is GM.
 

bandwagonesque

I eat Kraft Dinner and I vote
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This is factually and objectively false. And there are more players aside from Hague who have played in the NHL. At least do an ounce of research before making erroneous claims.

2017 NHL Entry Draft Picks at hockeydb.com
Two thirds of the players from that round have not yet played in the NHL. 5 players have played more than 10 games. Of the 150 or so players drafted after Gadjovic, 3 are in the NHL. If you think any of this contradicts anything I said, you simply don't understand what we're talking about. I don't know what else to say at this point.
 

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