Has Mike Sullivan Been Fired Yet?

[Pancakes]

I think it's actually worthwhile journalism - if you ask someone like Rust, who Sullivan openly praises and who gets a lot of leeway, then of course he's going to be positive. But if you talk to someone who has had a rocky time, you might get a more honest assessment.

As for understanding the problems, I think the players do understand the issues. I just don't think they're capable of fixing them.

You think so? Jarry isn't going to say anything negative about Sullivan while he's toiling in the minors. That would be a fast track way to never play in the NHL again.

The only players on this team that could bad mouth Sullivan with no fear of reprisal are guys like Crosby and Rust and they all love him from winning two cups with him

 

[Pancakes]

Mike Sullivan has an absolutely dogshit record as a coach (and Boston assistant) beyond two glorious seasons. That's a fact.

Obviously we're all thankful for those two seasons. But at this point if you still think dude is some kind of genius team-building architect of success then I don't really know what to tell you beyond "go tend to your living room shrine."

Crazy thought... perhaps aggressive roster building by the GM combined with some truly generational players were farrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr more responsible than some doofus who fiddles around with his glasses all game.

It's kinda sad how the Pens sticking with Sullivan far beyond his shelf date has created resentment around him. Same thing happened with Disco too.

These are guys who we should be fondly remembering as ushering in cup winning seasons and instead all people think about now is how overdue Sully is to be fired and how many playoff failures Bylsma had.

If the Pens had fired these guys when they should have been I think it would have actually helped their legacies here but keeping them too long has done the opposite

 

[Khelandros]

i think we want a new voice, but it's just hard to know what is really going on.
We've seen our star players be coach killers and ignore whomever is talking and just do their own thing. But the reality is our team is really really old. old players are inconsistent at times. we have a problem with team speed on this team. Are there any old and slow teams in today's NHL that are strong playoff teams? Edmonton is older (only team) but the difference is its because they have older complimentary players that are not counted on to do much and their team speed is way higher then ours. Penguins, our old players are also our best players, that is a HUGE problem if you want to be a playoff team especially when they are all pushing 40 which is ancient in the NHL, huge props that they contribute what they do. You could put herb brooks over this roster and it's not gonna do jack

This is the wrong way of looking at it. Is the team slower, maybe. But speed wouldn't help anything.

The system that Sullivan plays is just dumping the puck out of your zone and alleviating pressure in your zone. If he coached a possession game instead, the quality of their game would improve and the speed wouldn't even be an issue.

When another team is forechecking and the D-man just whips it along the boards hoping that their teammate gets it, is not a sound strategy. 9 times out of 10 this is why the Penguins spend so much time in their own zone defending.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

It's kinda sad how the Pens sticking with Sullivan far beyond his shelf date has created resentment around him. Same thing happened with Disco too.

These are guys who we should be fondly remembering as ushering in cup winning seasons and instead all people think about now is how overdue Sully is to be fired and how many playoff failures Bylsma had.

If the Pens had fired these guys when they should have been I think it would have actually helped their legacies here but keeping them too long has done the opposite

Pittsburgh has some truly bizarre ideas re: coaching.

No idea where this comes from. They are used car salesmen with CTE.

 

[M4lk1n71]

It's kinda sad how the Pens sticking with Sullivan far beyond his shelf date has created resentment around him. Same thing happened with Disco too.

These are guys who we should be fondly remembering as ushering in cup winning seasons and instead all people think about now is how overdue Sully is to be fired and how many playoff failures Bylsma had.

If the Pens had fired these guys when they should have been I think it would have actually helped their legacies here but keeping them too long has done the opposite

Look, it's easy to pile on Sullivan, especially after recent struggles, but let's not pretend coaching is the root of all the Penguins' problems. Those ‘two glorious seasons’ didn’t happen by accident. Sullivan was instrumental in creating a system that maximized speed, forechecking, and depth contributions, which helped the team overcome injuries and roster limitations. That’s not something any random coach could’ve pulled off.

Blaming Sullivan while ignoring roster construction, player regression, and front-office decisions is just scapegoating. The team has aged, the supporting cast has deteriorated, and GM moves haven't exactly set him up for success. How many coaches could thrive when their bottom six is a black hole and their defense is constantly in shambles?

Would a coaching change magically fix everything? Maybe a new voice could shake things up, but let’s not rewrite history and act like Mike Sullivan wasn’t a massive part of the Penguins’ success. Firing him won’t suddenly make this team deep, fast, or young again.

 

[Pancakes]

Look, it's easy to pile on Sullivan, especially after recent struggles, but let's not pretend coaching is the root of all the Penguins' problems. Those ‘two glorious seasons’ didn’t happen by accident. Sullivan was instrumental in creating a system that maximized speed, forechecking, and depth contributions, which helped the team overcome injuries and roster limitations. That’s not something any random coach could’ve pulled off.

Blaming Sullivan while ignoring roster construction, player regression, and front-office decisions is just scapegoating. The team has aged, the supporting cast has deteriorated, and GM moves haven't exactly set him up for success. How many coaches could thrive when their bottom six is a black hole and their defense is constantly in shambles?

Would a coaching change magically fix everything? Maybe a new voice could shake things up, but let’s not rewrite history and act like Mike Sullivan wasn’t a massive part of the Penguins’ success. Firing him won’t suddenly make this team deep, fast, or young again.

I don't think most reasonable fans would blame only Sullivan. He's a big part of the problem, but so are Hextall/Dubas/JR.

The Sullivan vitriol is loudest because he's been here the longest.

 

[BlindWillyMcHurt]

Well you know what they say... if you aren't part of the solution you are part of the problem. I don't really know how much evidence people need to understand that at least at this point and probably for about the last five seasons Sullivan has not been anywhere near the solution. Or even part of the solution. If the guy is such an incredible coach... now that we're discussing it... why MUST he have a star studded, can't miss roster with depth spanning all the way down to the AHL (lol like he'd use it, anyway)? Isn't that supposed to be part of the appeal of a "top five" coach? That he can make brownies outta turds? Hell even Disco dragged some real thin/injured rosters to the post season.

This isn't even taking into consideration that these "boo hoo so terrible" rosters were absolutely put together with his input.

 

[M4lk1n71]

I don't think most reasonable fans would blame only Sullivan. He's a big part of the problem, but so are Hextall/Dubas/JR.

The Sullivan vitriol is loudest because he's been here the longest.

We should consider bringing back Jim Rutherford while keeping Kyle Dubas, creating a joint GM structure similar to what the Capitals have with Brian MacLellan and Chris Patrick. This approach would allow the team to benefit from both Rutherford’s aggressive, win-now mentality and Dubas’s modern, analytical approach to roster building.

Rutherford’s track record in Pittsburgh proves he knows how to construct a championship team, but his impulsive trades sometimes led to long-term issues. Dubas, on the other hand, is a promising young GM who values sustainability and smart asset management, but his more patient approach might not be the best fit for a team still trying to maximize the final years of Crosby and Malkin.

By having both work together, we could find a balance between immediate contention and long-term planning. A retool rather than a rebuild. Given the success of similar structures in other organizations, this could be a way to strengthen the front office without completely overhauling leadership. We should also keep Mike Sullivan.

 

[Andy99]

Look, it's easy to pile on Sullivan, especially after recent struggles, but let's not pretend coaching is the root of all the Penguins' problems. Those ‘two glorious seasons’ didn’t happen by accident. Sullivan was instrumental in creating a system that maximized speed, forechecking, and depth contributions, which helped the team overcome injuries and roster limitations. That’s not something any random coach could’ve pulled off.

Blaming Sullivan while ignoring roster construction, player regression, and front-office decisions is just scapegoating. The team has aged, the supporting cast has deteriorated, and GM moves haven't exactly set him up for success. How many coaches could thrive when their bottom six is a black hole and their defense is constantly in shambles?

Would a coaching change magically fix everything? Maybe a new voice could shake things up, but let’s not rewrite history and act like Mike Sullivan wasn’t a massive part of the Penguins’ success. Firing him won’t suddenly make this team deep, fast, or young again.

I think these comments from posters on another site are right on the money, are the biggest beef with Sullivan and why he needs to go with the young players coming up:

“Saw a tweet the Athletic is reporting that the Pens are looking to move Beauvillier, Hayes and Lizotte (hopefully that's not a complete list).

I don't like the way Sullivan has deployed Lizotte at all. When he was healthy, he was playing solid 3C for us, then he gets moved to 4C for no apparent reason and plays with anchors. Feel like Lizotte may have taken a bad penalty or 2 and got the EROD treatment from Sullivan. I would think we could get a decent return for Lizotte. He's a gamer and a player teams would want come playoff time. (Hopefully we can attach Acciari to him in a trade)!

If we could rid ourselves of Hayes $3.55AAV next season, that would be surprising. He's still a solid player, maybe a playoff team will take him with the cap increase for next season.”

“Lizotte was literally on pace for a 30 goal season when Sullivan shifted him to the 4th line. Through his first 20 games, Lizotte had 8 goals. That's a 32 goal pace over 82 games. The most goals Lizotte has scored in a season is 11. Since Sullivan has shifted him to the 4th line, Lizotte doesn't have a point in 16 games.

This is EXACTLY where Sullivan kills careers. Sorry guy having a career year and showing good signs of offense, my team is bleeding goals and I need you to turn into our 3rd defenseman out there. I don't care if it completely stunts your production, makes you look absolutely worthless on your next contract negotiation, etc, etc. DEFENSE, DEFENSE, DEFENSE. What? Yes, I know our goal differential was improving with you on the 3rd line but has now plummeted again to 3rd worst in the league with you on the 4th line. Don't question my knowledge. DEFENSE!!!!!”

“I think that's where my main frustration with Sullivan lies. Well, maybe it's two things tied for first place but they dovetail into the same thing: He A.) loveslovesloves! his marginally talented vets. "Great on the PK, plays the right way...blah,blah,blah," and, B.) Because of that deep love he refuses to budge which submarines young guys who look to be developing some offensive upside (Lizotte, Puljujarvi, Tomasino). I bet all three of those guys would/can kill penalties just as effectively as Nieto, Acciari types, and with more potential to actually produce a shorty, if given half a chance. Someone also mentioned that the young guys seem to play nervous at times because they know if Letang makes a game-killing turnover, then they will be scratched for three games.”

 

[Pancakes]

We should consider bringing back Jim Rutherford while keeping Kyle Dubas, creating a joint GM structure similar to what the Capitals have with Brian MacLellan and Chris Patrick. This approach would allow the team to benefit from both Rutherford’s aggressive, win-now mentality and Dubas’s modern, analytical approach to roster building.

Rutherford’s track record in Pittsburgh proves he knows how to construct a championship team, but his impulsive trades sometimes led to long-term issues. Dubas, on the other hand, is a promising young GM who values sustainability and smart asset management, but his more patient approach might not be the best fit for a team still trying to maximize the final years of Crosby and Malkin.

By having both work together, we could find a balance between immediate contention and long-term planning. A retool rather than a rebuild. Given the success of similar structures in other organizations, this could be a way to strengthen the front office without completely overhauling leadership. We should also keep Mike Sullivan.

I appreciate everything JR did but I don't want him anywhere near the team again lol. His aggressiveness can serve a team looking to win-now but the Pens are not going to be in that phase for a long time to come.

Dubas has made a number of mistakes since starting his tenure here but I feel like he's been relatively good since pivoting to doing a rebuild after moving Jake Guentzel. Most of his moves since then have been fine or even good.

For the first time in years I have at least a modicum of faith in what the Penguins management is trying to do.

I hope Dubas doesn't turn right around and shit on that by flipping the Ranger's first for a young player that's not worth the pick but we'll see how patient he proves to be moving forward.

 

[vikingGoalie]

This is the wrong way of looking at it. Is the team slower, maybe. But speed wouldn't help anything.

The system that Sullivan plays is just dumping the puck out of your zone and alleviating pressure in your zone. If he coached a possession game instead, the quality of their game would improve and the speed wouldn't even be an issue.

When another team is forechecking and the D-man just whips it along the boards hoping that their teammate gets it, is not a sound strategy. 9 times out of 10 this is why the Penguins spend so much time in their own zone defending.

i hear you, but can you point to any contender where ALL the main talent is this old?
You can implement systems all you want, and they work up until the person trying to pass/make a play has no space/time. The time when you could trap and hold your way to victory (thx devils for ruining hockey) is long past. You can be a super skilled guy but if you have no time or space to do anything it really limits your options. That makes possession hockey harder, not impossible but everything is easier with time/space and we just don't have it. We don't even have a threat where if they get a step they are gone and score more times then not. We need to be younger and faster as a roster, sure coach a possession game all we want and we might get better results up until we play another team that adjusts to our style and is overall faster.
This is an interesting read: NHL EDGE Data Reveals the Link Between Skating Speed and Offensive Success
If i had time i'd compile up the listing of players per team to get an average/max speed to do comparisons but there are other articles on the the athletic on this that i refuse to pay to see. But the stats don't lie in this case and it's across teams and systems.

 

[Icarium]

Sullivan was instrumental in creating a system that maximized speed, forechecking, and depth contributions, which helped the team overcome injuries and roster limitations. That’s not something any random coach could’ve pulled off.

Cool story. What has Mikey Boy done in this decade, though?

How many coaches could thrive when their bottom six is a black hole and their defense is constantly in shambles?

Their defense is constantly in shambles largely because the coaching. Unless you think the entire roster mysteriously forgot how to play defense, that is. And the bottom six is bad on paper for sure but insisting on Nieto, Acciari and company despite their inability to score in a brothel is on Sullivan, not on anyone else getting in the way of the poor misunderstood genius.

People said the exact same things (the roster sucks, what can a coach do) about the Red Wings before the finally got rid of their coach recently and look what happened. Is it a guarantee that such a thing will happen to the Penguins too? Of course not but what exactly do they have to lose? If it doesn't work, get a nice draft pick and roll the dice again.

Trying the same thing and going all "But the roster! But the GM! But Mercury Retrograde!" would be borderline insanity, considering that the roster isn't likely to become much better any time soon. Might as well get a coach that can actually develop young players, at least occasionally, if nothing else.