Has Messi surpassed Gretzky/Jordan and others as the GOAT for all sports?

[Dr Beinfest]

Threads should be locked when their polls don’t have sufficient answer choices.

This question is in fact meaningless and impossible to answer. Every sport has a GOAT… and literally zero of them have it uncontended in some way. How are you asking if Messi is the GOAT of GOATs if he hasn’t cleared his own sport’s conversation? Not to say he isn’t the favorite. But Pele and Maradona exist. And every sport has their dark horse “what could have been” stories. Hockey has Mike Bossy and Mario Lemieux etc., in soccer there’s a saying “Maradona good, Pele better, George Best.” Except George Best was a raging alcoholic and flunked out of the sport at a time when he should have been in his prime.

Impossible to dare go cross sports if you can’t get out of your own, and you can’t get out of any sport without some kind of argument. Gretzky has Lemieux. Jordan has LeBron Messi has a solid 2 players in the conversation.

 

[Pizza!Pizza!]

Threads should be locked when their polls don’t have sufficient answer choices.

This question is in fact meaningless and impossible to answer. Every sport has a GOAT… and literally zero of them have it uncontended in some way. How are you asking if Messi is the GOAT of GOATs

Even FIFA doesnt consider Messi the GOAT of soccer.

Edson Arantes do Nascimento (Brazilian Portuguese: [ˈɛtsõ(w) ɐˈɾɐ̃tʃiz du nɐsiˈmẽtu]; born 23 October 1940), known as Pelé (Portuguese pronunciation: [peˈlɛ]), is a Brazilian former professional footballer who played as a forward. Regarded as one of the greatest players of all time and labelled "the greatest" by FIFA,[1] he was among the most successful and popular sports figures of the 20th century. In 1999, he was named Athlete of the Century by the International Olympic Committee and was included in the Time list of the 100 most important people of the 20th century. In 2000, Pelé was voted World Player of the Century by the International Federation of Football History & Statistics (IFFHS) and was one of the two joint winners of the FIFA Player of the Century. His 1,279 goals in 1,363 games, which includes friendlies, is recognized as a Guinness World Record.[2]

 

[TBF1972]

Messi first has to pass Pele and Maradona as the best football player of all times.

he passed maradona a long time ago. maradona is more myth than actual great athlet. obviously he had all the talent, but he made poor use of it. he wasn't dedicated enough to practice and got corrupted by his fame. drugs did the rest. holding maradona over messi is a very romantic view. it's like saying james dean is a better actor than tom hanks.

i can't answer for pele, as all i have are a few highlights from the world cup. apart from the world cup football/soccer at his time also wasn't an international game. pele played his whole prime in brasil. it is extremely difficult to compare the competition in league play, as there was no inter league competition and players leaving their continent or even country wasn't common at that time.

 

[Dr Beinfest]

Even FIFA doesnt consider Messi the GOAT of soccer.

Edson Arantes do Nascimento (Brazilian Portuguese: [ˈɛtsõ(w) ɐˈɾɐ̃tʃiz du nɐsiˈmẽtu]; born 23 October 1940), known as Pelé (Portuguese pronunciation: [peˈlɛ]), is a Brazilian former professional footballer who played as a forward. Regarded as one of the greatest players of all time and labelled "the greatest" by FIFA,[1] he was among the most successful and popular sports figures of the 20th century. In 1999, he was named Athlete of the Century by the International Olympic Committee and was included in the Time list of the 100 most important people of the 20th century. In 2000, Pelé was voted World Player of the Century by the International Federation of Football History & Statistics (IFFHS) and was one of the two joint winners of the FIFA Player of the Century. His 1,279 goals in 1,363 games, which includes friendlies, is recognized as a Guinness World Record.[2]

To add to this, the only player ever with 3 world cups. And two thirds of the players ever with 2 or more are his teammates and him. Championships aren’t everything, but when comparing greats we often look towards that (see LeBron v Jordan).

 

[Fenway]

Bill Russell played 13 NBA seasons - got a ring 11 times
Won an Olympic Gold Medal in 1956
Won 2 NCAA championships

He was at his best in the biggest moments: In 30 elimination games at the college, pro and Olympic levels, Russell was a staggering 28-2.

 

[SeanConn]

Wilt Chamberlain is the G.O.A.T.

 

[Dr Beinfest]

Bill Russell played 13 NBA seasons - got a ring 11 times
Won an Olympic Gold Medal in 1956
Won 2 NCAA championships

He was at his best in the biggest moments: In 30 elimination games at the college, pro and Olympic levels, Russell was a staggering 28-2.

Almost like you’re adding to the tail end of my post lol. Yes, and the list goes on and on with worthy greats that stall the conversation intra-sport.

 

[TheStatican]

Nah, people who ever believed C. Ronaldo was better than Messi are deluded, and I actually hated Barca in Messi's prime. Ronaldo is a better athlete of course but Messi has been a technically superior player from day one, with significantly better ball skills, a much better playmaker, and MUCH smarter overall. This is like comparing Ovechkin and Mario Lemieux.

Mbappé has some gaudy numbers but he's playing in an inferior league, and his reputation owes a lot to two short tournaments. He needs to move to Spain or England as soon as possible. He's a very unique talent for sure but I'm feeling quite comfortable to say that Messi was clearly a better player at the age of 23.

There are two things that always stood out about Messi for me. First, he not only exceeded the benchmarks set by all-time great forwards before him; he simply tore them apart. 50 goals in a single La Liga season in 2012 is incredible, and even more so for a player who wasn't deployed as a pure goal scorer, as he was playing in a deeper role and was consistently creating a ton of scoring chances for his teammates.

Second, he's always been a player that seemingly never makes mistakes like flawed passes, failed dribbles, botched attempts at a shot, bad first touches etc. There are players like this but those are used in more defensive roles, such as deep-lying midfielders or central defenders. It's something else for a purely offensive player like Messi though, who (given the nature of position) has consistently been taking a lot of risky plays. Especially in his (very long) prime, it looked like he was ALWAYS making the right decision, with the ball or without it. His technical ability and sense of the game were out of this planet, even compared to other all-time greats.

Thank you for this detailed response. Having followed soccer very little I wanted to understand better what makes Messi so great, now I have a much better understanding of him as a player and why he stands above his peers in the sport.

 

[KAITBGMITNHL]

Some say Donald Bradman is the most dominant, his stats are way above his competitors.

Don Bradman - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Yeah, this is my vote. His overall record is so much better than the competition it's ridiculous.

There was a study done that showed to be as dominant would require a .392 average in baseball, and average 43.0ppg in basketball, not sure about hockey though.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Yeah, this is my vote. His overall record is so much better than the competition it's ridiculous, and in the second biggest world sport - his record in cricket is about 40% better than the next best ever

He was competing against milkmen

 

[Ivo]

Let’s say Gretzky is like the best player in Idaho and Messi is like the best player in California. It is possible that the best player in Idaho is better than the best player in California, but it is statistically unlikely. You cannot really determine who is better unless Idaho and California participate in the same competition. And you surely cannot say the Idaho guy is better, because he won 10 straight Idaho MVPs or something.

 

[Colorado Avalanche]

Football is the biggest sport in the world and Messi is the GOAT, so obviously yes.

 

[TruePowerSlave]

Only a biased hockey fan would go with Gretzky. Hockey has only a fraction of active players compared to the bigger sports like football. It takes more to dominate such a global sport.

 

[Matsun]

Messi has been compared to Ronaldo all his career but that has never really made any sense. Thats because Messi doesn't make sense. Messi is like an GOAT level quarterback, so he should be compared with Tom Brady right? But at the same time Messi is one of the best defensive tackles so instead he gets compared to Aaron Donald. Messi gets compared with Ronaldo because they score the same amount of goals, but he actually plays more like a number 10 like Maradona, Ronaldinho etc. Number 10s would be lucky to score half the goals Messi score which is why people instead compare him and Ronaldo to each other. Messi is by FAR the best player ever while Ronaldo is ''only'' one of the greatest goalscorers ever like Gerd Müller, but because of the weird PR campaign Ronaldo has been overrated while Messi probably has been underrated (I know that sounds crazy). Messi has been an impossible blend of legendary creator and goalscorer while Ronaldo was close to a pure Gerd Müller goalscorer, which is absolutely fine and amazing, but the comparison between the 2 made it so Messi was reduced to a goalscorer while Ronaldo got more credit for his creation than he deserved. Any football stat that digs into creation basically shows this every single time that Messi is impossible, he is alot better than different players at what they do which shouldn't happen.

Does this make him the GOAT? Who knows, I think so but I can only compare him to Usain Bolt.

 

[Kshahdoo]

he passed maradona a long time ago. maradona is more myth than actual great athlet. obviously he had all the talent, but he made poor use of it. he wasn't dedicated enough to practice and got corrupted by his fame. drugs did the rest. holding maradona over messi is a very romantic view. it's like saying james dean is a better actor than tom hanks.

i can't answer for pele, as all i have are a few highlights from the world cup. apart from the world cup football/soccer at his time also wasn't an international game. pele played his whole prime in brasil. it is extremely difficult to compare the competition in league play, as there was no inter league competition and players leaving their continent or even country wasn't common at that time.

Lol did you watch Maradona? I mean 1986? 1990? Even 1994 where he was suspended for doping?

His Napoli was pretty poor club by Italian standarts and he won 2 titles with it, basically singlefootedly. And Italian league was the best league in the world back to then.

 

[Arthur Morgan]

Still Gretz


Time to get out of your cave bud

why its soccer who gives a shit? hardly even a big sport in North America.

 

[Hamilton Bulldogs]

It’s Tom Brady.

Dude has more rings than any franchise in league history.

 

[barkovcanfinnish]

If Gretzky would’ve won the 1996 World Cup of Hockey they’d be even. Sorry Great One

 

[Howe Elbows 9]

he passed maradona a long time ago. maradona is more myth than actual great athlet. obviously he had all the talent, but he made poor use of it. he wasn't dedicated enough to practice and got corrupted by his fame. drugs did the rest. holding maradona over messi is a very romantic view. it's like saying james dean is a better actor than tom hanks.

That seems like an odd thing to say, I'd say good acting is totally subjective. At least in sports there are statistics that we can use when arguing if X is greater than Y.

 

[TBF1972]

Lol did you watch Maradona? I mean 1986? 1990? Even 1994 where he was suspended for doping?

His Napoli was pretty poor club by Italian standarts and he won 2 titles with it, basically singlefootedly. And Italian league was the best league in the world back to then.

i have watched him. prime highlights are great. but one of his most famous goals was an illegal play.

but he was running around with a belly before 28. nowhere near the consistent excellence of messi or even ronaldo.

That seems like an odd thing to say, I'd say good acting is totally subjective. At least in sports there are statistics that we can use when arguing if X is greater than Y.

james dean and maradona have a great, but rather short prime. messi and hanks have excellent careers. that's the analogy.

 

[randywoodsghost]

Congrats to Messi on dominating the USA’s 5th or 6th best sports athletes.

Before you dismiss that factor in how dominant the USA is in sports in general as demonstrated in pretty much every Olympic Games.

 

[TruePowerSlave]

Congrats to Messi on dominating the USA’s 5th or 6th best sports athletes.

Before you dismiss that factor in how dominant the USA is in sports in general as demonstrated in pretty much every Olympic Games.

Football is the most popular sport on the planet with the highest number of active players. It's the most difficult situation to become dominant.

 

[Slapshot Sultan]

Hockey, while a great sport is just too small sport that can't be compared to football/soccer at all. It's like comparing the USA's mens soccer team to Women's soccer team. Yeah, the women have won gold medals, but it's a lot easier to be the best when there is a lot less competition.

 

[Dr Beinfest]

i have watched him. prime highlights are great. but one of his most famous goals was an illegal play.

but he was running around with a belly before 28. nowhere near the consistent excellence of messi or even ronaldo.


james dean and maradona have a great, but rather short prime. messi and hanks have excellent careers. that's the analogy.

I appreciate the analogy because I know not everyone will. That’s because of semantics - we don’t even agree on the definition of GOAT. Is it pound for pound better than their peers? In which case Mike Bossy and Lemieux and George Best and Bill Russell get boosts and at least enter the outside of the conversation. Or is this about simple all-time completeness? In which case Gretzky and Messi/Pele and Jordan/LeBron are the conversation alone.

And before anyone takes my rando athletes as an invitation to argue - I’m just throwing random examples out there, not some finite short list.

 

[Xspyrit]

No soccer player will ever supercede any of the real sports athletes

We should make a poll about this

Is it willful ignorance or willful blindness?

I mean, if you ask 100 people from a country outside of Canada who the greatest athlete ever is, you would get 0 answers for Gretzky. In america you might get Brady, but outside of that nobody would say him. 90% of answers would be Messi,, Pele, Ronaldo, Bolt, Jordan, Ali, etc.

I lived in Europe until I was a teenager. I never even heard about hockey. I had played/experienced soccer, tennis, football, handball, water polo, motocross, horse riding, karate, judo, swimming and probably some that I forgot about

The 39.5% voting for Gretzky is people promoting hockey. It's now my favorite sport too but let's be real lol

No. Anyone who knows anything about football would say it's still Maradona.

Very debatable but even if Messi is the GOAT, HM at the very least to Pele, Maradona, Zidane, Ronaldo and heck one of my favorite players back then, Franz Beckenbauer