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Has Marc-Andre Fleury become overrated in recent years?

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ITM said:
That's my vague recollection as well. A fantastic team those two years Kessel first played for them.

All in all an interesting conversation, but I think one that needs to close loops on mitigating circumstances rather than lump them in as incidental to OP's thesis if a good faith investigation is of any interest.

Saying MAF is "overrated" at any stage of his career when he has more wins than Lundqvist, Belfour and Roy feels like an exercise reaching for all kinds of haunted compulsion.

Appreciate your caveat as a Flyers fan.
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Wins can be a passenger stat when you play on an extremely good team, you can be mediocre and rack up the wins. It might not be the case for Fleury, but if you were to argue that in 2009 he was a top 10 goalie, because he was top 10 in wins, I'd say you were crazy.
 
Fleury will always be a "what if" for me. Drafted 1st overall by the Pens with all the talent and athleticism you could ask for only to be thrown to the wolves. No goalie coach for the first 10 years of his career and also dicked around because of money issues at the beginning of his career really messed up his development. They bring in Bylsma and once he implemented his system in 2009/2010 it made things worse with his stupid stretch pass BS and garbage system. Allowed for a lot of odd man rushes.

He'll get in to the HHOF and deservedly so. As someone mentioned he is one of the last goalies who didn't have angles/positioning etc drilled in his head since he started and just went out to stop the puck any way possible. Is/Was entertaining to watch.
 
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I'm not reading any of this thread but I'm saying yes. Penguins fans wanted him run out of town for years. He's popular now because he's been around a long time, because he's less objectionable than Las Vegas and because he smiles a lot. I will not be reading replies to this post.
 
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BigBadBruins7708 said:
very much so. he's the primary reason why the Crosby Pens didnt win more Cups. wow, he won a bunch of games...real hard to do behind Crosby and Malkin for a decade
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So, he gets no credit for regular season wins because of the team in front of him, but takes full blame for all playoff losses…for reasons. Also, the team gets credit for playoff wins too, right?

Why haven’t the Oilers found one goalie to collect wins behind McDrai for the last decade since it’s so easy?
 
Voight said:
It was due to injury, but honestly if he stays in net that year the Pens definitely dont win the cup. Murray was fantastic. Even better the year after.
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I would agree chances are Pens don’t win in 16 just based on previous results but you never know. Sullivan’s system and the influx of young talent and energy helped as much as anything. Murray going on a historic run doesn’t hurt either.

The following year, Pens 100% do not get through Washington with Murray over Fleury. Game 7 of that series was the best game of MAF’s life and I wouldn’t risk putting any goalie in his place in that moment. The team did not play well in front of him and he bailed them out, which is something I wouldn’t count on for Murray even though he was great in his own right.
 
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GrkFlyersFan said:
I can't believe Pittsburgh's starter in 2012 is a Hall of Famer. He got pulled for his backup, an aging Vokoun the following year. The Pens were not serious contenders in 2014 and 2015. Then he was hurt for the 2016 run, they win with Murray, a mere prospect at the time, who was better than the actual backup Jeff Zatkoff. 2017 they share the net all season, every time it looks like Murray's got it, he gets hurt, including right before the playoffs. Fleury regains control of the crease and kills it. Murray becomes available late in the 2nd round, and midway through the ECF, they pull Fleury, fair or not for Murray who got the job done the year before. There's no room for Fleury there anymore, he departs via Expansion Draft, Murray officially succeeds him.

If the story ended there, Fleury would not be HOF. It's what he's done since. Big part of Vegas's immediate success, even though by the time they won a Cup, he was gone. Then he ices it with a Vezina, something he never had come close to doing. He's out of Pittsburgh 8 years now and still very good in his role as Minnesota backup.
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I agree his standing across the league improved after he left Pittsburgh. But without his time in Pittsburgh (375 regular season wins, 62 playoff wins, and 3 cups), he's not even considered for the hof.
 
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Voight said:
MAF shouldn't be a HHOF'er. But because he was a nice dude and racked up a bunch of wins playing with two of the three best players of his era, he'll unfortunately get in.


Ever notice how after 2009 the Pens didn't make it to the third round again until 2013.... when he was replaced.... and didn't win any more cups until he was again replaced.
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If the Penguins wanted to get further in the playoffs in 2015, maybe they should have scored more than 1 goal in three straight games while Fleury put up a 0.930. Notice how they've only got out of the first round once since trading him?

If you think Fleury isn't getting into the Hall on merits you're delusional.
 
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MAF spent most of his career underrated. I don't think he is overrated at all. Was he consistently a top 5 goalie? No. But that isn't what is going to get him in the HOF. He is going to be a HOF goalie due to his longevity primarily. Having 3 cups helps for sure, and the Vezina just seals it. He did deserve that Vezina as well, IMO, it wasn't a "gift" award for him. His stats were elite that season, his Save % was better than most of the rest and he was one of 2 starters to have below 2.00 GAA (the other being Grubauer on a stacked Colorado team). Was he a runaway winner that year? No, and the voting reflects that, with Vasilevsky getting only 2 fewer 1st placece votes. Remember, Hellebuyck and Shesterkin didn't have as good of seasons as normal. Helle was still very good, but Shesterkin had significantly fewer wins and a much higher GAA and Save %. But other than him having a down year, there were 5 goalies who had great seasons, but the stats give the edge to MAF.
 
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BigBadBruins7708 said:
very much so. he's the primary reason why the Crosby Pens didnt win more Cups. wow, he won a bunch of games...real hard to do behind Crosby and Malkin for a decade
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Wasn't all him. Their depth between 2011-2015 or so wasn't great. 2012 is the only year he really blew it for them. When everyone suddenly started making bad trades with them, their fortunes turned.
 
BHD said:
Not overrated, but I do think people overlook those rough years in Pittsburgh.
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They absolutely do. Pens fan here as well. 2010-2013 in the playoffs was f***ing awful.

2010: 7-6 / 2.78gaa / .891sv%
2011: 3-4 / 2.52gaa / .899sv%
2012: 2-4 / 4.63gaa / .834sv%
2013: 2-2 / 3.52gaa / .883sv% (benched for Vokoun)

I was happy when they got rid of him in 2017. There’s always hindsight but Murray was the right guy to go with at the time.
 
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qc14 said:
The Patrick Marleau of goalies.
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Patrick Marleau would a proper comparison if he had Stanley Cups, individual hardware, and All-Star team selections, and stats placing him top-2 all time in something significant.


But ok, ignoring all the reasons MAF is likely heading to the HHOF, yeah Marleau is the perfect comparison.
 
Perfect_Drug said:
Patrick Marleau would a proper comparison if he had Stanley Cups, individual hardware, and All-Star team selections, and stats placing him top-2 all time in something significant.


But ok, ignoring all the reasons MAF is likely heading to the HHOF, yeah Marleau is the perfect comparison.
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Wins are the least significant goalie stat
 
I think opinions about Fleury vary almost as much as his performance varies game to game.

For me, a lot of MAF trophies come with question marks. Two of the Cups he won, he wasn't the clear starter, wasn't playing in the finals, and for one of those, he literally just had a cameo.

For the Vezina, it does feel like a pity gift from the league. Stats look really good, but whether he really earned these numbers is very questionable. I mean, he was traded for absolutely nothing right after the award. Obviously the team he played for saw him as very replaceable, and the other teams weren't exactly lining up to land presumably best goalie in the league.

That said, I do not have a problem with him being in HHOF. I may not take it as seriously as others, to me it's not only about performance, but sort of being a part of the league lore and history. So, MAF presense, personality, the role in that amazing story of VGK castoffs taking league by storm weigh a great deal in favor of him being honored. More so than his actual abilities or award achievements.
 
MAF definitely deserves to be in the HOF and also deserves criticisms for having some of the worst postseasons of all time for a goalie. But the resume is HOF-worthy, even if he didn't single-handedly win the cups in Pittsburgh. He still contributed greatly to them, and then went on to have quite a career after he was gone.

Love the dude, will always be one of my all-time favorite hockey people.
 
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Even we big fans of Fleury never said he was a Top 5 goalie at any point. But he spent a decade+ at 5-10, which is much rarer than you’d think.
 
BigBadBruins7708 said:
very much so. he's the primary reason why the Crosby Pens didnt win more Cups. wow, he won a bunch of games...real hard to do behind Crosby and Malkin for a decade
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By who? I've never seen it myself, as much as one might like Fleury I don't see anyone saying stuff like "he's CLEARLY top 5 of all time," I'm not even sure if his hardcore fans are adamant he is a top 10 goalie of all time.

He's a flawed goalie like most in the 10+ range, all of them have their positives and blemishes.
 
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