Has Marc-Andre Fleury become overrated in recent years?

[CokenoPepsi]

Most overrated goalie ever.

You'll have people trying to argue he a top 5 of all time or "on a mt Rushmore" of goalies

 

[SomeDude]

Most overrated goalie ever.

You'll have people trying to argue he a top 5 of all time or "on a mt Rushmore" of goalies

Where are those people at? I don’t think anyone has ever said those things.

 

[Toby91ca]

Fleury was drafted 1st overall because of his skills and athleticism. And the Pens would still pick him first in a re-draft because they won with him. He didn't reach his ceiling as the best goalie in the world. You said Carey Price and he's the complete opposite of that robot who is bigger than him. He's a fan favorite because of his personality and maybe that's why you think he's overrated ?

Agree, Fleury had great physical ability, I think the mental part of the game held him back at times. For him to last so long and accumulate so much, he has to be a great goalie, it's that simple, if he wasn't, he wouldn't have been getting the playing time.

I don't think he's overrated at all, but that simply comes down to how I think he's generally rated. I agree that he's never been seen as a top 3-5 goalie consistently like some others. There will always be a list of guys that you can show as being better, but some of those guys have come and gone and he's still there......so certainly a HOFer in my mind....almost impossible to say no based on wins, cups, etc.....as much as people will discount that due to team....but does that mean I think he's an all-time great and top 3 of a generation....no, absolutely not and I don't think he's rated that way.

Most overrated goalie ever.

You'll have people trying to argue he a top 5 of all time or "on a mt Rushmore" of goalies

If he was rated as a top 5 goalie off all time, I'd agree, most overrated goalie ever....but who on this planet has him rated as top 5 all time?

 

[Perfect_Drug]

Midway through his career, there was an honest case for him being in the Crawford / Osgood / Vernon territory.

His longevity, consistency, and Vezina are getting him into the HHOF.


I think most of us know where he's rated. An ultra-consistent goalie who had the fortune of playing for great teams the majority of his career.

 

[BHD]

Not overrated, but I do think people overlook those rough years in Pittsburgh.

 

[dre2112]

MAF might be the most overrated player in the history of the NHL, but hey, he's a great locker room guy

 

[GrkFlyersFan]

Same number of cups as a starter as Niemi

I give him 2017 more than Murray. He got more than half the 16, and the real toughest series was the 2nd round against Washington, which was all him. They would still have won if they didn't pull him from the ECF, they were way better than Ottawa or Nashville. I get what you're saying though. But again, look what he's done since leaving Pittsburgh despite being older. He checks all the HOF boxes.

 

[qc14]

The Patrick Marleau of goalies. Very good for a very long time, but he had more stretches than you remember of being not great and also fewer than you remember of being a true top player in the league. The HoF has definitely swung more big-hall and accumulator in recent years -- that combined with his trophies (although a fair number of them came despite his play), his likability, and the Pens/Canadian factor make him a lock. Would I vote for him? Probably not, but I think that's more my take on what the Hall should be rather than what it is.

 

[ITM]

MAF shouldn't be a HHOF'er. But because he was a nice dude and racked up a bunch of wins playing with two of the three best players of his era, he'll unfortunately get in.

Ever notice how after 2009 the Pens didn't make it to the third round again until 2013.... when he was replaced.... and didn't win any more cups until he was again replaced.

Why was MAF replaced during the 2016 run?

 

[GrkFlyersFan]

The Patrick Marleau of goalies. Very good for a very long time, but he had more stretches than you remember of being not great and also fewer than you remember of being a true top player in the league. The HoF has definitely swung more big-hall and accumulator in recent years -- that combined with his trophies (although a fair number of them came despite his play), his likability, and the Pens/Canadian factor make him a lock. Would I vote for him? Probably not, but I think that's more my take on what the Hall should be rather than what it is.

Nah, even under the old impossible goalie standards he'd be in. More wins than anyone not named Brodeur(although people seem to ignore shootouts, which inflates win totals, a lot more 300 and 400 game winners than before), at least one Cup yes, and the one thing that could have stopped him, a Vezina. Trust me, as a Flyers fan, I know how bad some of his playoffs were. That 2012 series was insane.

Why was MAF replaced during the 2016 run?

He wasn't, he was injured. He became available later and they did try to put him in during the ECF against TB, but it didn't take. He was too rusty and Murray went back in.

 

[Grifter3511]

Neither of these guys have been around for more than 20 years OR won a Vezina.

That wasn't the point he was responding too though.

 

[TeeTee]

He was on a team that had no discipline under Bylsma and left him hanging out to dry multiple times.

 

[Sasha Orlov]

The Patrick Marleau of goalies. Very good for a very long time, but he had more stretches than you remember of being not great and also fewer than you remember of being a true top player in the league. The HoF has definitely swung more big-hall and accumulator in recent years -- that combined with his trophies (although a fair number of them came despite his play), his likability, and the Pens/Canadian factor make him a lock. Would I vote for him? Probably not, but I think that's more my take on what the Hall should be rather than what it is.

Perfect comparison, well done

 

[SomeDude]

He was on a team that had no discipline under Bylsma and left him hanging out to dry multiple times.

He certainly had moments where he was to blame, the aforementioned 2012 Philly series being probably rock bottom for as bad as a goalie can play in a series, but yes people should go back and watch the Bylsma era Pens teams to see how bad it was.

His system was the D retrieve the puck, immediately throw a Hail Mary stretch pass to Crosby and/or Malkin and when it is picked off, hope MAF can stop a 2 on 1. Teams ate them alive in the playoffs by posting their wingers at the red line to intercept the stretch passes and Bylsma refused to adjust.

 

[GordonGraham]

Simple for me he's underated not overateda lock for the HHOF

 

[Grifter3511]

Overated all depends on where he is universally ranked, and as to that, I have no idea. I will say though, for a guy who made it to the finals and won a bunch, his playoff numbers are noticeably worse than all his real contemporaries.

Playoff careers

Marc-Andre Fleury .911% 2.56 GAA
Henrik Lundqvist .921% 2.30
Carey Price .919% 2.39
Pekka Rinne .914% 2.49
Braden Holtby .926% 2.13
Corey Crawford .918% 2.38
Jonathan Quick .921% 2.31

Fleury has the worst numbers out of all of them. You can argue that he has the longevity factor and has played in the playoffs the last few years when the scoring has increased and the sv% has decreased, but you can't overlook that in his prime from 2010-2013 he had 4 straight years of sub .900% in the playoffs. In fact, he has significantly more playoffs with sub .900% than the next closest of the goalies I listed.

He was a very athletic goalie who could get hot, but never had the consistency to be a great goalie. Longevity, health and rosters in front of him have pushed him into an echelon that his actual play doesn't deserve (which is fair...longevity counts), but most knowledgable hockey posters are aware of that. And no knowledgable hockey fan has him anywhere near a Mt. Rushmore of goaltending.

 

[qc14]

Overated all depends on where he is universally ranked, and as to that, I have no idea. I will say though, for a guy who made it to the finals and won a bunch, his playoff numbers are noticeably worse than all his real contemporaries.

Playoff careers

Marc-Andre Fleury .911% 2.56 GAA
Henrik Lundqvist .921% 2.30
Carey Price .919% 2.39
Pekka Rinne .914% 2.49
Braden Holtby .926% 2.13
Corey Crawford .918% 2.38
Jonathan Quick .921% 2.31

Fleury has the worst numbers out of all of them. You can argue that he has the longevity factor and has played in the playoffs the last few years when the scoring has increased and the sv% has decreased, but you can't overlook that in his prime from 2010-2013 he had 4 straight years of sub .900% in the playoffs. In fact, he has significantly more playoffs with sub .900% than the next closest of the goalies I listed.

He was a very athletic goalie who could get hot, but never had the consistency to be a great goalie. Longevity, health and rosters in front of him have pushed him into an echelon that his actual play doesn't deserve (which is fair...longevity counts), but most knowledgable hockey posters are aware of that. And no knowledgable hockey fan has him anywhere near a Mt. Rushmore of goaltending.

Not the main point of the thread but Holtby is one of the most underrated playoff performers ever. He and Ovi for years were the only people that would show up and just got repeatedly screwed over by everyone else suddenly becoming incapable of scoring.

 

[AKL]

You can tell he's absolutely overrated by the number of people who brought up three Stanley Cups as if he wasn't on the bench for two of them.

And the one he actually did start for, of the 8 goaltenders to play 10 or more games that postseason, he was 7th in save%.

 

[SomeDude]

Perfect comparison, well done

If you want to use a skater comparison, I think Ron Francis is more apt.

The longevity and consistency compiled both their stats up to be near the top all time but neither were ever really considered the best at their position compared to their contemporaries.

Francis was 38 when he received his most Hart votes similar to MAF getting the Vezina towards the end of his career. Both aged better than most.

 

[Nucks2001]

5 Finals appearances, 3 rings, Olympic gold, Vezina, Jennings


Sure, might not be as much individual hardware, but (as much as it pains me) I rank him as one of the top goalies of the 21st century.

he never even touched the ice for his Olympic Gold Medal, 2/3 cups were split with Matt Murray. This is what I mean when people overrate him

 

[GhostfaceWu]

Nope. Oiler fan no dog in the fight.

Key pts
3 cup wins
Vezina/Jennings
30+ win seasons 9
25+ win seasons 13

IF he had quit 2 seasons ago or before joining the wild--He goes in the hall on the first ballot. Wild fans may disagree--he stayed to long at the dance and it has hurt his reputation


what is his doing with his 3rd?

Why would wild fans disagree 910 908 And 909 currently out of four year with them is great for a back up.

 

[ITM]

Nah, even under the old impossible goalie standards he'd be in. More wins than anyone not named Brodeur(although people seem to ignore shootouts, which inflates win totals, a lot more 300 and 400 game winners than before), at least one Cup yes, and the one thing that could have stopped him, a Vezina. Trust me, as a Flyers fan, I know how bad some of his playoffs were. That 2012 series was insane.


He wasn't, he was injured. He became available later and they did try to put him in during the ECF against TB, but it didn't take. He was too rusty and Murray went back in.

Didn't MAF suffer two concussions that year, the second of which happened late March?

 

[GrkFlyersFan]

Didn't MAF suffer two concussions that year, the second of which happened late March?

I think so. He was definitely not available at the start of the playoffs.

 

[ITM]

I think so. He was definitely not available at the start of the playoffs.

That's my vague recollection as well. A fantastic team those two years Kessel first played for them.

All in all an interesting conversation, but I think one that needs to close loops on mitigating circumstances rather than lump them in as incidental to OP's thesis if a good faith investigation is of any interest.

Saying MAF is "overrated" at any stage of his career when he has more wins than Lundqvist, Belfour and Roy feels like an exercise reaching for all kinds of haunted compulsion.

Appreciate your caveat as a Flyers fan.

 

[SomeDude]

Didn't MAF suffer two concussions that year, the second of which happened late March?

The 2nd concussion was in April right before playoffs. Took a James Neal shot to the helmet and the door opened for Murray.

Ironically, Murray also got hurt right before the playoffs that year so Jeff Zatkoff had to start the first 2 games of the playoffs and has since dubbed himself “Mr. game 1” since he got the W. Murray went on one of the best year long runs ever and the rest is history.