Has Germany and Switzerland surpassed Slovakia?

[Elvs]

Well, not to sound condescending, but if I'm writing about the past, the present and the future, it's a bit of a no-brainer. When I'm removing older players, I'm obviously talking about the future. And the future is not the present or the past.

Hope this clears things up.

Oh, and the topic of this discussion is how good each national team is.

The quality of the domestic league provides depth and is indicative of the breadth and depth of your overall talent pool, with certain caveats. This is a suppporting side-argument, which is not really central in this discussion and we could as well ignore it.

How good the DEL and NL are have little to do with how good German and Swiss players are. Those leagues are strong because of their strong economies and capability of enticing quality foreign players. Using this logic, Slovakia has never been good at hockey, because even at their strongest point, Slovakias best players outside of the NHL resided in Sweden. But yeah, this is all a moot point which we can move on from.

As far as the future goes, it's evident that Germany and Switzerland have ways to go before closing the gap to Czechia. Switzerland is actually trending downwards in the last 5 years compared to the previous 5. Not to mention that Czechia is still producing draftees at 4x the rate of Germany and Switzerland. With that kind of quantity, you're likely to develop a few quality prospects here and there.

When Slovakia's upcoming prospects enter their primes, Draisaitl could very well be on his way out of his. And nothing about Switzerland's last four drafts and next two drafts speaks in their favour against Slovakia. Not saying that Slovakia is about to reach their golden days again, because it takes a lot more than two or three good draft years for that to happen. But that's also why Germany and Switzerland still have ways to go, and I'm saying this as someone who wants hockey to grow in all countries.

 

[stastny12]

Slovakia has 3 full time NHL players and a 36 yo goalie once you remove Chara and Sekera from the equation.

There is no way this is a 3-way-tie, especially considering how bad the Slovakian league has become relative to NL and DEL.

Still good enough for Dinamo Riga to sign players from there, though. For example, Poirier, Maione, Parshin or Marshall...

 

[Seanaconda]

If you take away draisitle from Germany its a no and maybe stutzle but take them away id say no , but Slovakia and the czechs haven't been super great since they were one country so maybe its a bit close but that's less the other two getting better and the czechs and Slovaks falling off a cliff

 

[Maverick41]

A Slovak team full of players from the Slovak league just beat a german team full of their best DEL players twice I believe in a pretty controlling fashion just a few months ago. Not as big as you may think.

First off, I agree that the difference is not as big as some people seem to think, but there are still some things I would like to point out in your statement.
If you are referring to the games they played in April before the World Championship, then Slovakia won the games 4-3 in a shootout and 2-1 respectively. And while they were the better team in both games, I would not exactly use the term "controlling fashion" which to me would indicate that their win was never in doubt, and for that it was just too close on the scoreboard, even if Slovakia was controlling the majority of both games.

What is flat out wrong, if you are referring to those two games, is that the German team was full of their best DEL players. Those games happened during the DEL finals, which means no players from the two finalists were on the team, and even the players from the teams that had just been eliminated had not yet joined the team.
Of the 24 players that were on the roster against Slovakia the following players made the final roster for the World Championships, which included 7 or 8 non DEL-players depending on how you count Peterka who had played for both Munich (DEL) and Salzburg (ICEHL) that season:

G - Niklas Treutle
D - Marco Nowak
F - Daniel Fischbuch

So, that was pretty far from a team full of our best DEL players.
But again, I do agree with the overall point you make. And that the DEL is better at all is mostly based on the quality of the import players than the domestic players. The imports are still really driving the quality of the DEL, even if the domestic talent has caught up a bit.

 

[mirec04]

Of the 24 players that were on the roster against Slovakia the following players made the final roster for the World Championships, which included 7 or 8 non DEL-players depending on how you count Peterka who had played for both Munich (DEL) and Salzburg (ICEHL) that season:

G - Niklas Treutle
D - Marco Nowak
F - Daniel Fischbuch

So, that was pretty far from a team full of our best DEL players.
But again, I do agree with the overall point you make. And that the DEL is better at all is mostly based on the quality of the import players than the domestic players. The imports are still really driving the quality of the DEL, even if the domestic talent has caught up a bit.

This is true but playoff was still ongoing in Slovakia at that time too, so our team was also not the best one.
I have seen both games and score should be much more in favor of Slovakia.

 

[Stewie Griffin]

Both teams have a lot of young talent coming up. With that said though Germany easily has the best player in Draisaitl, although Slovakia has more veterans.

 

[stastny12]

DEL-ers should surely beat Extraliga players. Those Slovak players who shine throughout the year are mostly gone after one season, so it´s basically never ending circle of newcomers. In particular, talented guys such as Kelemen, Fasko-Rudas, Okuliar, Bondra or Hecl had been impactful for their teams in the last season, but during the summer they joined teams in Czechia and Finland.

On the contrary, I am pretty sure that a Slovak team consisting only of European players would have edge over the German one.

 

[mirec04]

.

On the contrary, I am pretty sure that a Slovak team consisting only of European players would have edge over the German one.

With returnees like Marincin, Hrivik, Cehlarik (maybe Jurco soon) we have better players in Europe, that is for sure

 

[Czechboy]

If you take away draisitle from Germany its a no and maybe stutzle but take them away id say no , but Slovakia and the czechs haven't been super great since they were one country so maybe its a bit close but that's less the other two getting better and the czechs and Slovaks falling off a cliff

Please scroll up a few posts and look at the drafts for the last 10 and last 5 years for Germany, Slovakia, Switzerland and the Czechs.

Also, after Czechs seperated.. they were the very definition of super great. They won the best on best Olympics, back to back world Juniors, 3 straight World Championships. That was 1998 to 2001.

Obviously, we're not that anymore but to say we haven't been super great since seperating isn't accurate.

 

[Czechboy]

Both teams have a lot of young talent coming up. With that said though Germany easily has the best player in Draisaitl, although Slovakia has more veterans.

If we're talking Germnay, Swiss and Slovakia. I agree Drai is the best player but Josi would be a damn close 2nd. Norris level D are hard to come by.

 

[Czechboy]

Last years DEL scoring leaders

2 Germans in Top 10

7 out of 20 Germans in Top 20

No Germans in Top 3

I agree the DEL is awesome (like the NLA who has led by Kovar and Cervenece was 3rd)... however to suggest it shows German players are better than other nations isn't accurate. It's a better league.

 

[Czechboy]

For contrast.. here is the top 20 in Slovakian Extraliga

19 and 20 are Slovaks... Fasko Rudas and Sykora

So... 7 of top 10 are Slovaks
The entire Top 5 is Slovaks
13 of top 20 are Slovaks

Is DEL a better league... yes. Is it because of German players... not really.

When you compare DEL to Slovak Extraliga you are comparing Slovakian players to non German ones.

 

[Czechboy]

Just for fun, I compared the draft results for Germany, Switzerland, Czech Republic and Slovakia in the last ten and five years.

Last ten years:

Nation	Total	1st round	2nd round	3rd round
GER	13	5	1	1
SUI	26	5	3	2
CZE	76	10	8	8
SVK	21	1	2	4

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Last five years:

Nation	Total	1st round	2nd round	3rd round
GER	10	4	1	1
SUI	11	1	1	0
CZE	43	4	1	7
SVK	11	0	1	2

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

It shows how far ahead the Czech Republic still is over the others. Sure, you could look at Germany in the last five years and point out how 40% of their draftees are selected in the 1st round. But when you're averaging two draftees per year, you're not gonna be pumping out 1st or 2nd round talent with any consistancy.

And here are the highest ranked prospects for the 2022 draft (as per Draft Prospects Hockey):

Simon Nemec (D) - #4

Juraj Slafkovsky (F) - #5

David Jiricek (D) - #8

Filip Mesar (F) - #22

Julian Lutz (F) - #61

Lian Bischel (D) - #64

I don't think any good 2023 rankings are avialable yet, but Eliteprospects has Dalibor Dvorsky (Slovakia) listed as one of eight "top prospects" right now.

How dare you use logic and facts!

This is hard to argue with an AINEC type trope.

Notice in both charts, more Slovaks then Germans drafted? 5 year and 10 year trend?

 

[Czechboy]

Well, first of all you need to distinct what you mean when you're talking about "7th best". Are you talking about currently? Future? Best on best teams? The overall state of respective hockey programs? Because you can't be talking about best on best rosters, and at the same time leave out Sekera/Chara and bring up the domestic league levels.

I'm by no means saying that Slovakia is currently ahead of Germany and Switzerland. But one cannot talk about rosters, leave out Sekera and Chara, point out how only a few others are regular NHL'ers, when Germany has Seider, Holzer and virtally no one else on their defense. There's about ten Slovak defensemen who are better than Germany's third best.

The only thing that clearly puts Germany ahed of Slovakia is Draisaitl. If we are talking about future, then of course Stutzle and Seider are looking like studs. But in a couple of years we could be talking about Nemec, Slafkovsky and Dvorsky in the same manner.

You're doing it wrong...
It's simple math:

SUBTRACT 2 of the 3 best Slovak Defenders today (Chara and Sekera)
SUBTRACT their starting goalie (Halak)
ADD Stutzle and Peterka as surefire hall of famers
SUBTRACT guys like Saflovsky and Nemec completely (who have very similar pedigrees to that recent crop of Germans)
ADD Seider as an NHLer who has already won the Norris

Then Germany is miles ahead of Slovakia.

 

[JabbaJabba]

Switzerland surpassed Slovakia years ago, Germany has done so over the last 5 years as well. I'd say both are still on an upwards trend and are closing in on Czech Rep.

Slovakia is a clear cut #9 and is basically a slightly deeper Latvia/Denmark, but their hockey system has better fundamentals and their unfortunes are in part related to management rather than a lack of talent.

Denmark had a lucky crop of forwards, which is aging and things will return to normal once they retire. Latvia has been improving over the last 5 years, but is about to plateau. But since the other natural rivals in Norway and Belarus are on a downwards trend, their position as #10-#11 is likely to remain unchallenged.

Couple of things. Did you forget that Denmark has Ehlers and Bjorkstrand who are quite young? Blichfeld looks pretty good and Danes have a couple of promising goalies as well. They don't have similar possible superstars as Slovakia though, but I imagine that they stay their position.

Also, I would say that Belarus is trending up. Sharangovich just broke into the league and could score 30 goals next season. They have a handful of promising prospects like Protas, Klimovich and Kolyachonok. They should rise in the rankings, not fall.

 

[Czechboy]

Couple of things. Did you forget that Denmark has Ehlers and Bjorkstrand who are quite young? Blichfeld looks pretty good and Danes have a couple of promising goalies as well. They don't have similar possible superstars as Slovakia though, but I imagine that they stay their position.

Also, I would say that Belarus is trending up. Sharangovich just broke into the league and could score 30 goals next season. They have a handful of promising prospects like Protas, Klimovich and Kolyachonok. They should rise in the rankings, not fall.

Their U18 teams have been dynamite to watch as well...

 

[wetcoast]

Germany obviously has the better league, but on best-on-best, the only difference is Draisaitl.
Slovakia also beats Germany troughout junior categories pretty regularly

Seider and Stutzle head a really good addition to Leon along with Lukas Reichel and John Peterka.

Slovakia has some good prospects but I would take the German core going forward.

 

[Lambo]

Seider and Stutzle head a really good addition to Leon along with Lukas Reichel and John Peterka.

Slovakia has some good prospects but I would take the German core going forward.

Seider, Reichel, Peterka etc. still have to prove themselves. Germany has a completely unbalanced squad

 

[Eye of Ra]

That's the entire point - you just described Latvia.

In no way, shape or form anyone with a sound mind would argue that Latvia is the 7th best team in the world, it isn't. Same as Slovakia.

Half of the Swiss/German teams are based on NHL players/prospects.

if we look at actual results, latvia might be 7th best team in the world. not everyhing is about what players you have, but about coaching, styles etc. Worse looking rosters can play better than better looking rosters. Latvia has done better for a long time than nations that are better on the famous paper.

 

[moropanov]

if we look at actual results, latvia might be 7th best team in the world. not everyhing is about what players you have, but about coaching, styles etc. Worse looking rosters can play better than better looking rosters. Latvia has done better for a long time than nations that are better on the famous paper.

Latvia has been worse than obvious top 6 and Switzerland and Germany.. Slovakia is debatable, but Latvia should be ranked 10-11th in world atm. Denmark/Latvia 10-11.

 

[wetcoast]

Seider, Reichel, Peterka etc. still have to prove themselves. Germany has a completely unbalanced squad

Well they have already proven themselves beyond the next wave of Slovaks right?

 

[wetcoast]

the current rankings BTW, if anyone is interested is

1. Canada
2. Finland
3. Russia
4. United States
5. Germany
6. Czech Republic
7. Sweden
8. Switzerland
9.Slovakia
10. Latvia
11. Norway
12. Denmark

Chine BTW is 32nd right behind powerhouses Spain and just ahead of Australia.

 

[Antiillafire]

Well they ahve already proven themselves beyond the next wave of Slovaks right?

You are right in that Slaf, Nemec, Mesar, Dvorsky haven’t proven yet. However either has Reichel or Peterka have done nothing to prove they are ahead of Ruzicka or Studenic. As for stutzle, he projects to be a great nhl player but there have been many nhlers who have had strong rookie seasons but never taken the next step. I’d also argue Chromiak could easily catch Peterka in the development curve. Not knocking these guys either, I think it’s best when all non top 6 nations can produce quality talent

 

[wetcoast]

You are right in that Slaf, Nemec, Mesar, Dvorsky haven’t proven yet. However either has Reichel or Peterka have done nothing to prove they are ahead of Ruzicka or Studenic. As for stutzle, he projects to be a great nhl player but there have been many nhlers who have had strong rookie seasons but never taken the next step. I’d also argue Chromiak could easily catch Peterka in the development curve.

Seider has already done very well and Stutzle had a decent eyar considering his age for the NHL and his skillset is worldclass.

It's great that the Slovaks are starting to develop some great talents again but they are the ones that have to prove themselves.

Cromiak could catch Peterka forsure but he was the 3rd best German prospect in the 20 draft, the other 2 guys are quite a bit ahead as is Peterka on Chromiak who is at best a project right now.

 

[Antiillafire]

Seider has already done very well and Stutzle had a decent eyar considering his age for the NHL and his skillset is worldclass.

It's great that the Slovaks are starting to develop some great talents again but they are the ones that have to prove themselves.

Cromiak could catch Peterka forsure but he was the 3rd best German prospect in the 20 draft, the other 2 guys are quite a bit ahead as is Peterka on Chromiak who is at best a project right now.

Nail Yakupov passed the eye test and showed world class skill his first year in the nhl too. Doubt they Stutzle will be the same but it’s not impossible, as development is anything but linear. Seider, yes is way ahead of Slovak prospects right now, I’m not debating that. And as for Reichel and Peterka they are just as much unproven as Nemec or Slafkovsky. Both of whom project to go in the top 10, i would argue Mesar is a better comparison for Reichel. All are unproven though, until they show it in the NHL. As far as the future goes, it’s even more difficult to tell.

However there is a reason Slovakia beat Germany 12-2 at the recent Hlinkas despite missing guys like J. Chromiak and Gabriel. Than the u17s beat Germany again by few goals a few weeks later. I’d argue that even the 9th or 10th best Slovak 2004 born is better than any 2004 born from Germany. And the 05s is again, a gap.

However, I agree all these guys are unproven until they get to the NHL and show they are stars. Like I said at the beginning, development is not linear. Who knows, maybe Bokk takes off and becomes the best of him, Reichel and Peterka.