Has Connor Bedard quietly became underrated ?

[PainForShane]

You're just salty because I said Bedard wasn't generational.

What on earth does that have to do with anything? There was a zero percent chance that Bedard wasn't going to be better in his first two seasons.

It's difficult if not impossible to be salty toward a person you don't respect.

To clarify, you said (and repeatedly defended) your claim that Bedard would never be generational because his ROY win wasn't dominant enough. Clearly it's too early to tell either way, the kid's entering his second year in the league.

***

Either way, you're not fooling anyone in either direction -- either with your nonsense claim that it's impossible for Bedard to become generational bc according to you his Calder-winning season wasn't dominant enough (clearly Gordie Howe, Tom Brady, Novak Djokovic etc all exist and had worse professional starts), or this new equally nonsensical claim you're being objectively neutral toward the guy

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

It's difficult if not impossible to be salty toward a person you don't respect.

That's not a very nice thing to say. I still respect you and your opinions.

That said, you're clearly quite salty, considering that this is the 2nd time in the last 3 weeks you've tried to initiate a conversation with me about how my opinion of Bedard's potential is ridiculous. Last time you called me a clown, so I guess personal insults is just the way you cope with your anger?

To clarify, you said (and repeatedly defended) your claim that Bedard would never be generational because his ROY win wasn't dominant enough. Clearly it's too early to tell either way, the kid's entering his second year in the league.

Am I not allowed to have an absolute opinion on things these days without you personally attacking me? I do not believe he has generational potential, why does that anger you to the point where you feel name calling is necessary?

And clearly, Bedard's first 82 games have been nowhere near good enough to justify having the generational conversation. Nobody was making that claim about Patrick Kane in 2008, and for good reason.

In the modern NHL, the true generational talents have proven to be a top 5 player in the world before their 20th birthday.

Either way, you're not fooling anyone in either direction -- either with your nonsense claim that it's impossible for Bedard to become generational bc according to you his Calder-winning season wasn't dominant enough (clearly Gordie Howe, Tom Brady, Novak Djokovic etc all exist and had worse professional starts), or this new equally nonsensical claim you're being objectively neutral toward the guy

I don't believe athletes from 75 years ago, or from different sports, are at all relevant to how we project modern NHL players.

 

[WarriorofTime]

It's safe to say it's harder in the here and now NHL for a teenager to dominate. Jeff Skinner was 38th in Points as an 18 year old player that just got drafted. You aren't getting those results from anyone these days, Forwards really aren't breaking out until their D+4. At some point the pendulum will likely swing back the other way. Maybe Jeff Skinner was just a flat out better teenager than anyone from the last like 7 Drafts, but it's probably not the case since a lot of other young players (some huge names, some big names, some less big names) were also making quicker instant impacts while it's taken the Jack Hughes and Alexis Lafreniere types a bit to get going. Whiskey does seem a bit obsessed with Bedard even though he admitted he's likely the first, second or maybe third most promising player in terms of overall expected career value born between 1998-2006.

 

[Adrianopolous]

No one believes you. Especially because your own guy Jack Hughes heavily struggled early in his career and has improved tremendously since then

So if Bedard is a Jack Hughes type then I’ve been duped

 

[Crow]

That's not a very nice thing to say. I still respect you and your opinions.

That said, you're clearly quite salty, considering that this is the 2nd time in the last 3 weeks you've tried to initiate a conversation with me about how my opinion of Bedard's potential is ridiculous. Last time you called me a clown, so I guess personal insults is just the way you cope with your anger?

Am I not allowed to have an absolute opinion on things these days without you personally attacking me? I do not believe he has generational potential, why does that anger you to the point where you feel name calling is necessary?

And clearly, Bedard's first 82 games have been nowhere near good enough to justify having the generational conversation. Nobody was making that claim about Patrick Kane in 2008, and for good reason.

View attachment 927881

In the modern NHL, the true generational talents have proven to be a top 5 player in the world before their 20th birthday.


I don't believe athletes from 75 years ago, or from different sports, are at all relevant to how we project modern NHL players.

Patrick Kane came to a team with 7 or so other top line/top pairing players. It’s a terrible comparison. Bedard’s start has been much more impressive to me. In Patrick’s rookie year the hawks scored 239 goals. They scored 179 last year. It’s likely Bedard would have scored 20 more points from my math there assuming everything is linear.

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

It's safe to say it's harder in the here and now NHL for a teenager to dominate. Jeff Skinner was 38th in Points as an 18 year old player that just got drafted. You aren't getting those results from anyone these days, Forwards really aren't breaking out until their D+4. At some point the pendulum will likely swing back the other way. Maybe Jeff Skinner was just a flat out better teenager than anyone from the last like 7 Drafts, but it's probably not the case since a lot of other young players (some huge names, some big names, some less big names) were also making quicker instant impacts while it's taken the Jack Hughes and Alexis Lafreniere types a bit to get going.

This is an interesting point. I think for a number of reasons, we've seen the top young forwards struggle a bit more coming straight to the NHL. For one, I think COVID was a factor that probably affected everyone drafted 2020 and later.

- Hughes was pretty physically immature, and also had some of the worst puck luck I think I've ever seen (5% on ice sh%).
- Stutzle was similarly a late bloomer in terms of physical maturity, but he was still pretty decent.
- Lafreniere just wasn't as good as advertised, and simply was not ready for NHL pace.
- Slafkovsky and Byfield were both pretty well known to be very raw, most expected it would take them some time.
- Fantilli & Carlsson also had pretty decent D+1 years

I think guys like Skinner just had a very translatable skill set - guys that go to the net to score their goals in junior are much more projectable, and that's what Skinner did.

Whiskey does seem a bit obsessed with Bedard even though he admitted he's likely the first, second or maybe third most promising player in terms of overall expected career value born between 1998-2006.

To be fair, a large proportion of my posts in these Bedard threads are me defending myself from people coming after me for sharing an opinion that they don't agree with.

 

[PainForShane]

That's not a very nice thing to say. I still respect you and your opinions.

That said, you're clearly quite salty, considering that this is the 2nd time in the last 3 weeks you've tried to initiate a conversation with me about how my opinion of Bedard's potential is ridiculous. Last time you called me a clown, so I guess personal insults is just the way you cope with your anger?

Am I not allowed to have an absolute opinion on things these days without you personally attacking me? I do not believe he has generational potential, why does that anger you to the point where you feel name calling is necess

And clearly, Bedard's first 82 games have been nowhere near good enough to justify having the generational conversation. Nobody was making that claim about Patrick Kane in 2008, and for good reason.

View attachment 927881

In the modern NHL, the true generational talents have proven to be a top 5 player in the world before their 20th birthday.


I don't believe athletes from 75 years ago, or from different sports, are at all relevant to how we project modern NHL players.

You are so delusional. I responded to one of your more obvious denials literally saying, "no one believes you" then after you called me salty for no reason (yet again) I gave you two specific examples of your recent nonsense. In response you're like, "Oh you must have anger issues too" wtf are you even saying. I am neither salty nor angry, like others here I just think you are an incredibly dishonest and low value poster, and I am treating you accordingly.

Speaking of which, in the last few pages four different people (myself included) have come after you for completely unique and unrelated (yet justified) reasons. Are they all salty and / or angry as well, coming after you for different sides of your dishonest posts? Wtf accusations are you even making here.

***

Re: dishonesty in this particular argument, your table is nonsense -- among other things you repeatedly bring up "modern NHL players" but Gretzky and Mario played before the modern era so by your own cherry picked criteria shouldn't be included. More importantly, the table is misleading and completely irrelevant to the topic of this thread -- ppl are evaluating Bedard's ceiling based on his insane junior dominance rather than his Calder win, we all know Bedard's rookie year wasn't as strong as Sid's, that fact proves nothing.

So yeah, I don't speak for others, but imo I personally don't feel our discussions have anything to do with a difference of opinion, from my end it's more of a reaction to what I perceive as a continuous and intentional lack of intellectual integrity. Differences of opinion are totally fine and obvi will occur on an internet msg board, that's not what most of my particular responses have been about

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

You are so delusional. I responded to one of your more obvious denials literally saying, "no one believes you" then after you called me salty for no reason (yet again) I gave you two specific examples of your recent nonsense. In response you're like, "Oh you must have anger issues too" wtf are you even saying. I am neither salty nor angry, like others here I just think you are an incredibly dishonest and low value poster, and I am treating you accordingly.

You went out of your way to call me a liar because you can't fathom a world where someone can have a different opinion about player without hoping they fail.

Speaking of which, in the last few pages four different people (myself included) have come after you for completely unique and unrelated (yet justified) reasons. Are they all salty and / or angry as well, coming after you for different sides of your dishonest posts? Wtf accusations are you even making here.

I don't mind people challenging me about a player, but you seem particularly offended to the point where you resort to unprovoked personal attacks. That's why I said you're salty / angry.

***

Re: dishonesty in this particular argument, your table is nonsense -- among other things you repeatedly bring up "modern NHL players" but Gretzky and Mario played before the modern era so by your own cherry picked criteria shouldn't be included.

Nothing dishonest about the table. You continuously attack me instead of just accepting that I put together a table of the best first 82 games from top prospects since Gretzky, to provide relevant information to people.

More importantly, the table is misleading and completely irrelevant to the topic of this thread

It's 100% relevant to the countless people who believe that a player's first 82 games can be useful in projecting their ceiling.

-- ppl are evaluating Bedard's ceiling based on his insane junior dominance rather than his Calder win,

Funny how you harp on intellectual dishonesty and then go on to claim that people only care about his junior stats, and that nobody is considering his NHL performance to date, when that's very obviously false, considering all the people posting about how Bedard was clearly overrated and is not generational based on his early struggles.

Why are you lying about such an easily verifiable fact?

we all know Bedard's rookie year wasn't as strong as Sid's, that fact proves nothing.

I was comparing his first 82 games to the first 82 games of the best since Gretzky. Crosby isn't the only guy in that list.

So yeah, I don't speak for others, but imo I personally don't feel our discussions have anything to do with a difference of opinion, from my end it's more of a reaction to what I perceive as a continuous and intentional lack of intellectual integrity. Differences of opinion are totally fine and obvi will occur on an internet msg board, that's not what most of my particular responses have been about

The only reason you perceive my data table as dishonest is because it doesn't support your position. I'm contributing content while you're busy making personal attacks because you're still upset about my opinion from 3 weeks ago.

If you have a problem with my posts, the ignore button is right there. Otherwise, please stop quoting me with your personal attacks that clutter up the thread.

 

[PainForShane]

You went out of your way to call me a liar because you can't fathom a world where someone can have a different opinion about player without hoping they fail.

I don't mind people challenging me about a player, but you seem particularly offended to the point where you resort to unprovoked personal attacks. That's why I said you're salty / angry.

Nothing dishonest about the table. You continuously attack me instead of just accepting that I put together a table of the best first 82 games from top prospects since Gretzky, to provide relevant information to people.

It's 100% relevant to the countless people who believe that a player's first 82 games can be useful in projecting their ceiling.

Funny how you harp on intellectual dishonesty and then go on to claim that people only care about his junior stats, and that nobody is considering his NHL performance to date, when that's very obviously false, considering all the people posting about how Bedard was clearly overrated and is not generational based on his early struggles.

Why are you lying about such an easily verifiable fact?


I was comparing his first 82 games to the first 82 games of the best since Gretzky. Crosby isn't the only guy in that list.


The only reason you perceive my data table as dishonest is because it doesn't support your position. I'm contributing content while you're busy making personal attacks because you're still upset about my opinion from 3 weeks ago.

If you have a problem with my posts, the ignore button is right there. Otherwise, please stop quoting me with your personal attacks that clutter up the thread.

I don't have time for this nonsense and neither does anyone else. Everyone sees you're a hater that much is undeniable. Whether it's toward Bedard or toward a poster whose opinion you went out of your way to claim you respected literally a single post ago doesn't matter at this point.

To be very clear to anyone seeing this casually, Gretz and Mario's rookie years did not occur during what's generally considered the modern NHL. Which apparently Whiskey cares enough about to exclude our clearly generational player Gordie Howe in his "analysis." Basically he's cherry picking ppl to include so that he can make a false generalization, this is called the No True Scottsman logical fallacy and has directly been brought up multiple times in direct responses to him in this very thread.

No true Scotsman - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

***

Please attack me more and explain to everyone why you think I'm salty and / or have unresolved anger issues. You're wrong, and equally importantly, no one cares. I've made my point.

Go home clown. The ignore button works both ways.

 

[Chelios]

I don't have it out for him at all.

Ah, yes. Nothing says “I don’t have it out for a player” than a fan of a different team spouting thousands and thousands of words across multiple threads all in an effort to discount a particular player.

 

[BallardEra]

It boggles my mind that a kid this talented only has 3 goals so far this season.

 

[Bombshell11]

It boggles my mind that a kid this talented only has 3 goals so far this season.

He aint it

 

[ViD]

He aint it

He ain’t Nick Foligno

 

[NickyFotiu]

Overrated? Underrated? I can't say but he is 19 years old. Why not just wait and see before trying to put him in a box? I made that mistake with Jack Hughes. I judged him too early. He proved me wrong.

 

[Bombshell11]

Overrated? Underrated? I can't say but he is 19 years old. Why not just wait and see before trying to put him in a box? I made that mistake with Jack Hughes. I judged him too early. He proved me wrong.

This question should be asked to the NHL first. They're at fault here.

Is anyone hating on Slaf or Celebrini? Nop

 

[kp61c]

Looks very tiny out there, what's up with all these posts on this site touting his god-like physique?

 

[MuckOG]

This question should be asked to the NHL first. They're at fault here.

Is anyone hating on Slaf or Celebrini? Nop

I don't think anyone is "hating" on Bedard. Unless, it's "hateful" to say that there is a better chance of him finishing his career in the same tier as other great players like Kane, Kucherov, Datsyuk, et al. than finishing his career as a "generational" player like Crosby, McDavid et al.

 

[centipede2233]

I wonder if he should be a winger instead

 

[Section88]

He’s been awful with Bedard since he’s been promoted. He had a few good games as a 4th liner against easy competition.

You have no idea what you’re talking about.

TT was demoted and has 1 point in his last 9 games who you also said has “been really good at times.” He’s basically had two good games all season. Earned his demotion, and has been just as pitiful since.

Reichel has been great this year. Was awful last year.

 

[ViD]

I’m trying to see whether it’s his shot that was overrated as he was destroying junior goalies or his injury affected him in a way that the shot is not as lethal now

 

[WhiskeyYerTheDevils]

I’m trying to see whether it’s his shot that was overrated as he was destroying junior goalies or his injury affected him in a way that the shot is not as lethal now

His shot is just as good. It's just that the goalies and defenders are better.

 

[Regal]

His shot is just as good. It's just that the goalies and defenders are better.

I think he’s obviously a bit snakebite and certainly won’t continue to shoot 6%, but I think the ability to get good looks with your shot can be underrated relative to shot quality. His team doesn’t help in terms of getting open looks but he also seems to not quite be able to create space for himself/get into the high danger areas the way someone like a young Matthews could, in part due to his size. I’m sure it will come though.

 

[GIADF]

Reichel has been great this year. Was awful last year.

He’s had some really good shifts at time, but overall he has not been “awesome” as previously described. He’s also looked completely lost when he’s not playing 4th line minutes.

 

[yeaher]

Well, to be honest, a washed up Mario is better then anything Bedard has on the Hawks.

I mean, if you put Mario in skates right now he's better then anything Bedard has on the Hawks.....


Thats really not Jordan's fault tho.

Just sayin

It was a rhetorical question

 

[KillerMillerTime]

Couldn't agree more. The kid is under a lot of pressure to meet what I think were unreasonable expectations, and I would hate to see that have a negative impact on him. I would love to see him succeed.

I was glad to see he had a much better 3rd period, with a beauty assist (and unreal backhand pass from Donato). I thought he was really strong at the end of the game too - he made a great defensive play and then you could see he was buzzing trying to tie the game.

He's enormously talented and fun to watch. Whenever the Hawks are playing I try to put the game on - the league needs more talent like his, not less.

Will be peak Paul Kariya in a couple of years and nothing wrong if that is what he stays.