- Jul 30, 2016
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Hart Trophy Tournament (Post 2000's) Round 3: 2008 Ovechkin vs 2012 Malkin
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jigglysquishy
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Would probably be my #3 and #4 behind the two McDavid seasons.
I love this season by Malkin, but I do think this one is Ovechkin.
I love this season by Malkin, but I do think this one is Ovechkin.
Interresting choice to pit probably the 2 best seasons against one another this round - McDavid 21 vs McDavid 23. I assume McDavid 23 wins the tournmant, but I expected those to be the final 2.
I agree with the idea that these 2 seasons of Malkin and Ovechkin are among the best non-McDavid seasons. I think Kucherov/Mack 2024 may end up being looked at even better, but I know those aren't listed here so moot point.
I'm going to vote Ovechkin. Not a huge gap maybe, but I do prefer Ovechkin's season. More goals, more points, etc.
I agree with the idea that these 2 seasons of Malkin and Ovechkin are among the best non-McDavid seasons. I think Kucherov/Mack 2024 may end up being looked at even better, but I know those aren't listed here so moot point.
I'm going to vote Ovechkin. Not a huge gap maybe, but I do prefer Ovechkin's season. More goals, more points, etc.
- Jul 30, 2016
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Yeah I figured I’d spice things up a bit but after thinking it over, it’s better to give both seasons a chance to make it to the finals.
- Feb 10, 2010
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There is no case what-so-ever for Malkin here.
I take Ovechkin but a 55 goal/119 point pace season over 75 games in a really low scoring year with no Crosby for most of the season is not that far off imo. That was a very special year for Malkin and probably projects to 130+ points in today's league.
- Feb 10, 2010
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And yet Ovechkin did more with less.
He played 7 more games, so from that perspective he actually did more with more. Malkin had the better per game point production while still putting up elite goal numbers.
As far as comparing linemates, yes Neal and Kunitz were better than a rookie Backstrom. However, Malkin should get a lot of credit for their production considering Neal never came close to a point per game before or after playing with Malkin. He never even hit 60 points without him for that matter.
All I'm saying is that there is definitely an argument for Malkin here. It just depends on how highly you value goals when comparing their seasons.
This is Malkin very easily. He absolutely lapped the field in scoring while playing the more important position. Ovechkin was only 6 points clear of 2nd place that year (Malkin). Malkin was 12 points ahead of 2nd place despite playing 7 less games.
Malkin played 75 games not 76 just FYI.
- Jul 30, 2016
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Ah must’ve been a typo, thanks for the catch
Big fan of Malkin’s year and I held it as 2nd best since the lockout until McDavid’s recent years, but I don’t see a lot of argument for him here. Yea he has a better point pace, and moreso relative to the league, but the difference isn’t huge, and he had a bit more help. Keep in mind when Crosby played the Pens really went ham on offense and Malkin had 16 goals and 35 points in those 22 games.
Meanwhile, the 65 goals was huge and while Malkin was a center, Ovechkin was a huge play driver at the time so they both tilted the ice. I could see taking Malkin if Ovechkin was the more off the puck player he became in the second half of his career, but not when Ovechkin was playing like he was in 07-08. Also, while pace is useful in terms of assessing quality of play, the reality is that Ovechkin actually played the full year and those 7 games add value.
Meanwhile, the 65 goals was huge and while Malkin was a center, Ovechkin was a huge play driver at the time so they both tilted the ice. I could see taking Malkin if Ovechkin was the more off the puck player he became in the second half of his career, but not when Ovechkin was playing like he was in 07-08. Also, while pace is useful in terms of assessing quality of play, the reality is that Ovechkin actually played the full year and those 7 games add value.
These are very poor arguments.
Looking at lead over #2 doesn't mean anything. Crosby in 2014 lapped #2 by bigger margins than either/or. Competition isn't equal every year.
Also "he's center, so he must be better" is weak. Center is generally more important maybe - but you can't just use this to assume he was the better player, you still have to look at specifics and explain why.
Also - playing less games isn't a positive, it's a negative when considering better season. Maybe if we talk about "level of play" point per games is more relevant, but less games isn't a positive for a better season, especially not for hart.
Kucherov in 2024 is probably better. It's a bit hard to place a season historically right away, so maybe in a couple of years we'll have a better sense how it holds up, but I do think right now it is better.
- Feb 10, 2010
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I was responding to the assertion that Malkin did it without Crosby. While largely true, Malkin was playing on a team that had recently won a Stanley Cup. It was a deep and talented team that had no problem winning without Crosby or Malkin.
In 2008, Ovechkin was playing for a team that was recently a lottery team. They had no depth, crappy goaltending, and half the team was out of the NHL within a couple years.
The massive difference in what they were working with is easy to show:
Malkin led his team in goals by 10.
Ovechkin led his team in goals by 39.
Malkin led his team in points by 28.
Ovechkin led his team in points by 43.
I could go on. We could compare to the 5th and 10th best scorers on their respective teams - it's not going to be close. There is plenty more data that supports this line of reasoning if you find this unconvincing.
Fantomas
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- Aug 7, 2012
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filinski77
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- Feb 12, 2017
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2 of the best seasons of the last 20 years. But I go Ovi by a small edge due to goalscoring.
Malkin with a small lead in points compared to peers. But Ovechkin put up one of the best goalscoring seasons of all-time on top of that. Malkin missed 7 games, but also had a better supporting cast (even without Crosby), so I call that a wash between those 2 qualitative points.
Not really a factor in my decision, more just funny: Ovechkin had 220 hits in 2008, Malkin had 29 hits in 2012 (he pretty much cut his hits/gp in half in 2012 compared to all of his prior seasons lol).
Malkin with a small lead in points compared to peers. But Ovechkin put up one of the best goalscoring seasons of all-time on top of that. Malkin missed 7 games, but also had a better supporting cast (even without Crosby), so I call that a wash between those 2 qualitative points.
Not really a factor in my decision, more just funny: Ovechkin had 220 hits in 2008, Malkin had 29 hits in 2012 (he pretty much cut his hits/gp in half in 2012 compared to all of his prior seasons lol).
| Goals | Points | ||||
| Ovi | 65 | Ovi | 112 | ||
| #2 | 52 | 25% | #2 | 106 | 6% |
| #5 | 43 | 51% | #5 | 96 | 17% |
| #10 | 40 | 63% | #10 | 87 | 29% |
| #20 | 32 | 103% | #20 | 78 | 44% |
| #30 | 29 | 124% | #30 | 72 | 56% |
| Goals | Points | ||||
| #1 | 60 | -17% | Malkin | 109 | |
| Malkin | 50 | #2 | 97 | 12% | |
| #5 | 38 | 32% | #5 | 83 | 31% |
| #10 | 36 | 39% | #10 | 78 | 40% |
| #20 | 31 | 61% | #20 | 71 | 54% |
| #30 | 30 | 67% | #30 | 67 | 63% |
Wings4Life
Registered User
Actually the case for Malkin is that he did more with less as Crosby only dressed for 22 games and Letang for 51.
Ironically the usual Ovechkin outscored the 5th and 10th place guys by XX% are absent ince that was the case for Malkin here this year.
Adjusted this is how they line up
Malkin 75-57-65-122
Ovi 82-72-50-122
Basically this one is really close and anyone saying this is obviously biased.
Goals smoals, I'll take the Selke Fedorov Hart year as the best ever thank you along with Malkin in 11-12 and arguably Malkin in 08-09 winning the art ross, Smythe and second in Hart voting.
Fair enough and I get why people will take Ovi over Malkin but both scored basically at the same rate in terms of shooting % Malkin 14.7 on 339 SOG and Ovi at 14.6 with 446 SOG) but obviously the goal scorer who is going to take way more shots and is the shooter on his team will have the goals advantage and historically the Hart voters do like their goal scorers quite a bit.
Also the linemate argument clearly favours Ovi this year with an elite playmaker in Backstrom, an emerging offensive Dman in Green and Kozlov/Semin.
One can argue that the Pens had a better bottom 6 but that's also only really for 22 games when Crosby was in the lineup and Stall was the #3 center then.
JackSlater
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- Apr 27, 2010
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Two great seasons but I'm very comfortable going with Ovechkin here. Neither played much defence but both could carry the play in these seasons, however I like Ovechkin's physical dimension and he had less to work with than Malkin did. Also Malkin missing seven games is a negative when we are comparing these seasons. I don't care about the goals fixation but I do care that I'd much rather have seven more games with peak Ovechkin than not.
SkinsFan09
Registered User
You literally just tried to argue in another thread that Malkin "only" had a 21 year old Crosby (who had already won MVP) in 2008-09 like it wasn't that much help and now are trying to say a rookie Backstrom is a favor-tipping stalwart over 40 goal, 87 point James Neal lol.
Sure the reference in the other thread was to someone who called Crosby a top 5 ish player of all time and he certainly wasn't that at the time.
And yes Backstrom was a better player and more helpful than James Neal.
SkinsFan09
Registered User
He was already a Hart Trophy caliber player and winner - so for the purposes of that discussion about helping the 2009 Penguins, his all-time ranking is completely irrelevant to the fact that he was clearly miles better than anyone Ovechkin played with in 2009 and factored in on a ton of those PP points / took the top defensive pairings from other teams in line matching (which everyone argues when saying he should have won Conn Smythe over Malkin)
Backstrom as a rookie was solid but a 40-goal 87 point player is clearly more valuable than a 14-goal 69 point player. And there's no amount of defense making that up as Backstrom was not some insane two way player his first year in the league.
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filinski77
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Ovechkin had only 22 goals that were assisted by Backstrom that year, and only 12 of those were primary assists.
Ovechkin had as many goals as rookie Backstrom (#2 on the team) had POINTS.
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